13W3 vs. VGA

If I should decide to put a monitor on my Ultra 10, I have two options:

- remove the frame buffer and use the VGA port with a PC monitor.
- get a 13W3 to VGA converter and use the same monitor.

What advantage is there, if any, of using the frame buffer?

I've already tried out the monitor on the VGA port and was surprised at
the quality of the fonts during boot. Nothing spectacular about the
appearance of window frames and such, though.

--
Wes Groleau

Curmudgeon's Complaints on Courtesy:
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy1.html

On 2009-07-11, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
> If I should decide to put a monitor on my Ultra 10, I have two options:
>
> - remove the frame buffer and use the VGA port with a PC monitor.
> - get a 13W3 to VGA converter and use the same monitor.

One -- made by Sun for connecting a male 13W3 cable from a
monitor or computer to a female HD15 (VGA) connector is the 530-2357-01
which I have sitting beside me.

Also ...

- Get a monitor which uses the 13W3 directly. :-)

> What advantage is there, if any, of using the frame buffer?

The VGA connector frame buffer built into the systems board
(motherboard) is limited in memory, so you have the choice of either a
fairly large pixel count, or a lot of colors, but not both at once.

O.K. I found it in one of the PDF manuals which I had saved.

Up to 1152x900 24-bit graphics
Up to 1280x1024 8-bit graphics

for the internal VGA (which Sun calls PGX24). The amount of internal
framebuffer memory determines how large you can go with 24-bit graphics.
1152x900 @ 24 bit depth requires 3,110,400 bits of graphics RAM, and
that was pushing it for a built-in framebuffer in those days.

This means that if you accept the default Sun resolution for the
older computers you can get 24-bit graphics -- or 16, 777,216 colors
including full white and full black.

However, if you want higher resolution (up to 1280x1024 on the
built-in framebuffer) you will be stuck with 8-bit graphics -- 256
colors in the colormap. This will be vastly unsatisfactory with photo
processing.

> I've already tried out the monitor on the VGA port and was surprised at
> the quality of the fonts during boot. Nothing spectacular about the
> appearance of window frames and such, though.

What resolution were you using? The default, or did you use
fbconfig to increase the resolution for what your monitor will handle?
If the latter, did you try displaying color photos? *There* is where
the difference will be visible.

Now -- I'm using a Creator3D (UPA bus framebuffer from an Ultra
10) in my Sun Blade 2000. (The Ultra-10 is running OpenBSD and does
not have X11 enabled -- a text screen is all that I need on it.)

The resolution options on the Creator3D are (according to
fbconfig -res):


================================================== ====================
Valid values for -res option are:
Not Set
NONE
1024x768x60
1024x768x70
1024x768x75
1024x768x77
1024x800x84
1152x900x66
1152x900x76
1280x800x76
1280x1024x60
1280x1024x67
1280x1024x76
1280x1024x85
960x680x112s
960x680x108s
640x480x60
640x480x60i
768x575x50i
1440x900x76
1600x1000x66
1600x1000x76
1600x1280x76
1920x1080x72
1920x1200x70
1920x1200x75
1600x1200x60
1600x1200x75
1600x1200x60d
1920x1080x60d
1920x1200x60d
1280x1024x60c
?
svga
1152
1280
stereo
vga
ntsc
pal
================================================== ====================

and I'm using it with a LCD monitor at:

Current resolution setting: 1440x900x76 Hi-res

Some of these days, I'll get a higher resolution LCD monitor and change
the configuration to use that higher resolution.

The stereo options need a special pair of glasses which have a
separate shutter in each eye, and thus can separately display different
frames to each eye.

And I do a lot of photo work on this system, so the 8-bit color
would not be sufficient.

Note that I also have a PCI bus XVR-500 framebuffer (which has a
HD-15/VGA connector) in the system, and it offers:


================================================== ====================
Valid values for -res option are:
NONE
1024x768x60 [1]
1024x768x70 [1]
1024x768x75 [1]
1024x768x77 [1]
1024x800x84 [1]
1152x900x66 [1]
1152x900x76 [1]
1152x900x120s [1]
1280x800x76 [1]
1280x1024x60 [1]
1280x1024x67 [1]
1280x1024x75 [1]
1280x1024x76 [1]
1280x1024x85 [1]
960x680x112s [1]
960x680x108s [1]
640x480x60 [1]
640x480x60i [1]
768x575x50i [1]
1440x900x76 [1]
1600x1000x66 [1]
1600x1000x76 [1]
1600x1200x75 [1]
1600x1280x76 [1]
1920x1080x72 [1]
1920x1080x72 [1]
1280x800x112s [1]
1280x768x56 [1]
1600x1024x60 [1]
1600x1200x60 [1]
800x600x75 [1]
1920x1080x60 [1]
1280x1024x96 [1]
1440x900x60 [1]
1680x1050x60 [1]
1680x1050x60rb [1]
svga [1]
1152 [1]
1280 [1]
1280 [1]
stereo [1]
vga [1]
ntsc [1]
pal [1]
1280 [1]
Notes:
[1] monitor may not support this resolution.
================================================== ====================
(note -- since I don't have a monitor connected to it at the moment, it
can't tell what is there, so it assumes that none of the choices match
it. :-)

So -- if you get a reasonable PCI bus framebuffer, you can use that to
avoid the 13W3 to HD-15 adaptor. Among choices which you should be able
to find on eBay are the XVR-100 and XVR-500.

I've got a couple of systems with XVR-100 framebuffers
installed, and they came in a couple of Sun Blade 2000 machines. They
are smaller than the Creator-3D, and thus presumably dissipate less
power. :-)

I hope that this is a help.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
> On 2009-07-11, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
>> If I should decide to put a monitor on my Ultra 10, I have two options:
>>
>> - remove the frame buffer and use the VGA port with a PC monitor.
>> - get a 13W3 to VGA converter and use the same monitor.
>
> One -- made by Sun for connecting a male 13W3 cable from a
> monitor or computer to a female HD15 (VGA) connector is the 530-2357-01
> which I have sitting beside me.
>
> Also ...
>
> - Get a monitor which uses the 13W3 directly. :-)

You may have that option--I don't. :-)

>> What advantage is there, if any, of using the frame buffer?
>
> The VGA connector frame buffer built into the systems board
> (motherboard) is limited in memory, so you have the choice of either a
> fairly large pixel count, or a lot of colors, but not both at once.
>
> O.K. I found it in one of the PDF manuals which I had saved.
>
> Up to 1152x900 24-bit graphics

Ah, so it can do more than any monitor I own can handle. :-)

> However, if you want higher resolution (up to 1280x1024 on the
> built-in framebuffer) you will be stuck with 8-bit graphics -- 256
> colors in the colormap. This will be vastly unsatisfactory with photo
> processing.

Since this machine's destiny is a headless DNS/proxy server
(maybe firewall), this doesn't matter. In fact, the question
was really more from curiosity.

>> I've already tried out the monitor on the VGA port and was surprised at
>> the quality of the fonts during boot. Nothing spectacular about the
>> appearance of window frames and such, though.
>
> What resolution were you using? The default, or did you use
> fbconfig to increase the resolution for what your monitor will handle?
> If the latter, did you try displaying color photos? *There* is where
> the difference will be visible.

I plugged in an OLD and very heavy VGA that had never before been on
that Sun or any other. And I had never been on that Sun except to
give it a new root password in single-user mode with someone else's
keyboard and monitor. So the resolution is whatever the previous
owner left it at.

> Now -- I'm using a Creator3D (UPA bus framebuffer from an Ultra
> 10) in my Sun Blade 2000. (The Ultra-10 is running OpenBSD and does
> not have X11 enabled -- a text screen is all that I need on it.)
> ....
> The stereo options need a special pair of glasses which have a
> separate shutter in each eye, and thus can separately display different
> frames to each eye.

Wow, 3D. I have a creator3D according to teh front panel.
If I could afford the extra hardware, I could really waste
time playing with that.

> I hope that this is a help.

Since it's just curiosity, it is indeed helpful.


--
Wes Groleau

"There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over."
-- Larry Wall

On 2009-07-13, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>> On 2009-07-11, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
>>> If I should decide to put a monitor on my Ultra 10, I have two options:
>>>
>>> - remove the frame buffer and use the VGA port with a PC monitor.
>>> - get a 13W3 to VGA converter and use the same monitor.
>>
>> One -- made by Sun for connecting a male 13W3 cable from a
>> monitor or computer to a female HD15 (VGA) connector is the 530-2357-01
>> which I have sitting beside me.
>>
>> Also ...
>>
>> - Get a monitor which uses the 13W3 directly. :-)
>
> You may have that option--I don't. :-)

Several possibilities there.

+ Can't find one. (I've found them on eBay, but larger ones only)

+ Can't afford one. (If you were local, I could give you one.)

+ Don't have room for one. (your problem, not mine. :-)

>>> What advantage is there, if any, of using the frame buffer?
>>
>> The VGA connector frame buffer built into the systems board
>> (motherboard) is limited in memory, so you have the choice of either a
>> fairly large pixel count, or a lot of colors, but not both at once.
>>
>> O.K. I found it in one of the PDF manuals which I had saved.
>>
>> Up to 1152x900 24-bit graphics
>
> Ah, so it can do more than any monitor I own can handle. :-)

You don't have a monitor which will do 1152x900? That is the
default resolution on a Sun.

>> However, if you want higher resolution (up to 1280x1024 on the
>> built-in framebuffer) you will be stuck with 8-bit graphics -- 256
>> colors in the colormap. This will be vastly unsatisfactory with photo
>> processing.
>
> Since this machine's destiny is a headless DNS/proxy server
> (maybe firewall), this doesn't matter. In fact, the question
> was really more from curiosity.

O.K. I'm sharing a single LCD monitor between three systems
with a switch (each has its own keyboard, because the DIN keyboard
connector systems tend to reset on connecting a keyboard to a system
already booted, so switching keyboards without electronics to make it
look as though the keyboard is there all the time. :-)

>>> I've already tried out the monitor on the VGA port and was surprised at
>>> the quality of the fonts during boot. Nothing spectacular about the
>>> appearance of window frames and such, though.
>>
>> What resolution were you using? The default, or did you use
>> fbconfig to increase the resolution for what your monitor will handle?
>> If the latter, did you try displaying color photos? *There* is where
>> the difference will be visible.
>
> I plugged in an OLD and very heavy VGA that had never before been on
> that Sun or any other. And I had never been on that Sun except to
> give it a new root password in single-user mode with someone else's
> keyboard and monitor. So the resolution is whatever the previous
> owner left it at.

Probably the default 1152x900 resolution. In single-user mode,
the only way you will get something different is by adding a resolution
specifier to the eeprom setting "output-device="

If it is just "screen" as follows, you get the default resolution of
1152x900:

output-device=screen

However, if there is more, like this:

output-device=screen:r1440x900x76

it specifies what the computer will use in single-user mode. Once
booted to multi-user mode, other parameters take over -- if set via the
fbconfig command.

>> Now -- I'm using a Creator3D (UPA bus framebuffer from an Ultra
>> 10) in my Sun Blade 2000. (The Ultra-10 is running OpenBSD and does
>> not have X11 enabled -- a text screen is all that I need on it.)
>> ....
>> The stereo options need a special pair of glasses which have a
>> separate shutter in each eye, and thus can separately display different
>> frames to each eye.
>
> Wow, 3D. I have a creator3D according to teh front panel.

If it has a card in it with a 13W3 connector and a DIN
connector, yes, you probably do. (The DIN connector goes to the 3D
shutter glasses.)

> If I could afford the extra hardware, I could really waste
> time playing with that.

You will need both the special glasses and a recent Solaris (10
is available for download) as the OS. I'm pretty sure that OpenBSD
doesn't handle the 3D features. Not sure what the various flavors of
linux might do. I'm using OpenBSD for both a firewall (on an Ultra-5),
and a couple of web servers (on Ultra-10s).

You probably want to remove the Creator3D board, and save it for
use in another (Sun) system. That way, your Ultra-10 will run cooler.
That is why the Creator-3D from an Ultra-10 is in my SB-2000. I can use
the extra resolution for working on photos and such in the SB-2000,
while I don't use the console of the Ultra-10s for anything other than
booting and such -- and that not very often. The two Ultra-10s share
the monitor with a Sun Fire 280R rack-mount server, and none of them
have the monitor powered on most of the time -- only when I need to do
some diagnostics.

>> I hope that this is a help.
>
> Since it's just curiosity, it is indeed helpful.

Good.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
> On 2009-07-13, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
>> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>>> - Get a monitor which uses the 13W3 directly. :-)
>> You may have that option--I don't. :-)
> Several possibilities there.
> + Can't find one. (I've found them on eBay, but larger ones only)
> + Can't afford one. (If you were local, I could give you one.)
> + Don't have room for one. (your problem, not mine. :-)

The middle. You're quite generous. MAYBE I could afford shipping.
(I'm in Indiana)

> You don't have a monitor which will do 1152x900? That is the
> default resolution on a Sun.

I don't think so. Only very old and very heavy used monitors
(and the ones built-in on my macs. But my comment referred not
to teh default but to the amazing numbers near the end of your list.

> Probably the default 1152x900 resolution. In single-user mode,

Does it automatically switch the monitor's resolution?
Because that had previously been on an old PC and so
must have been 1024x768 or "worse"

> it specifies what the computer will use in single-user mode. Once
> booted to multi-user mode, other parameters take over -- if set via the
> fbconfig command.

But I have to have a monitor (or a terminal) to find the shell prompt
and type the command.

> If it has a card in it with a 13W3 connector and a DIN
> connector, yes, you probably do. (The DIN connector goes to the 3D
> shutter glasses.)

Yep. And a VLSI chip from Rockwell and a VLSI from Sun.

>> If I could afford the extra hardware, I could really waste
>> time playing with that.
>
> You will need both the special glasses and a recent Solaris (10
> is available for download) as the OS. I'm pretty sure that OpenBSD

I'm half-joking. For me, it would indeed be just playing and I can't
spare the time. [ I really should post less than I do on Usenet :-) ]

> You probably want to remove the Creator3D board, and save it for
> use in another (Sun) system. That way, your Ultra-10 will run cooler.

I _have_ to remove it. Can't use VGA with that card plugged in.
But I don't have another Sun to use it in.

--
Wes Groleau

Worksheet for “Central American Migrants” Video
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1009

On 2009-07-14, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>> On 2009-07-13, Wes Groleau <groleau+> wrote:
>>> DoN. Nichols wrote:
>>>> - Get a monitor which uses the 13W3 directly. :-)
>>> You may have that option--I don't. :-)
>> Several possibilities there.
>> + Can't find one. (I've found them on eBay, but larger ones only)
>> + Can't afford one. (If you were local, I could give you one.)
>> + Don't have room for one. (your problem, not mine. :-)
>
> The middle. You're quite generous. MAYBE I could afford shipping.
> (I'm in Indiana)

Hmm ... even the 17" one which I am offering (one of the two
last non-LCD ones I have) is a bit heavy to ship -- and tricky to pack
so it is not damaged. The original packing from Sun has the base
dismounted from the monitor and separated by fitted foam plastic
carriers (which I don't have). Once you snap them together, it is
difficult to get them to separate.

>> You don't have a monitor which will do 1152x900? That is the
>> default resolution on a Sun.
>
> I don't think so. Only very old and very heavy used monitors
> (and the ones built-in on my macs. But my comment referred not
> to teh default but to the amazing numbers near the end of your list.

Get a LCD -- or the 20" Sun CRT if you have room for a really
heavy monitor with two inputs -- VGA and 13W3 which can be switched from
the front panel. :-)

>> Probably the default 1152x900 resolution. In single-user mode,
>
> Does it automatically switch the monitor's resolution?
> Because that had previously been on an old PC and so
> must have been 1024x768 or "worse"

Hmm ... it *may* recognize the resolution which the monitor
encodes in some of the VGA pins, and switch to match -- but many VGA
monitors will handle 1152x900 as long as they are multi-sync.

>> it specifies what the computer will use in single-user mode. Once
>> booted to multi-user mode, other parameters take over -- if set via the
>> fbconfig command.
>
> But I have to have a monitor (or a terminal) to find the shell prompt
> and type the command.

Understood. And if you are using any other OS than Solaris,
that command won't exist -- but the printenv and setenv at the OBP (Open
Boot Prom) level will work to set the "output-device=" environment
variable. Note that the '=' is a part of the variable name, to indicate
that it holds a string. Those which end in '?' hold a true or false
value, and those with a '#' at the end only hold a numeric value. One
important one is:

auto-boot?=true

if it is false, the system will sit and wait for you to type "boot" at
the "ok" prompt. This is useful when you're doing installation or
diagnostics, but most of the time you want it set to true.

>> If it has a card in it with a 13W3 connector and a DIN
>> connector, yes, you probably do. (The DIN connector goes to the 3D
>> shutter glasses.)
>
> Yep. And a VLSI chip from Rockwell and a VLSI from Sun.

O.K. I don't have one out of a system to look at for the
moment, but it is a full-length card, and it does *not* plug into a PCI
slot. Instead, it goes into a UPA slot -- useful for framebuffers and
for some systems (e.g. Ultra-2 and Ultra-60) for CPU modules.

>>> If I could afford the extra hardware, I could really waste
>>> time playing with that.
>>
>> You will need both the special glasses and a recent Solaris (10
>> is available for download) as the OS. I'm pretty sure that OpenBSD
>
> I'm half-joking. For me, it would indeed be just playing and I can't
> spare the time. [ I really should post less than I do on Usenet :-) ]

I would like to have them too -- and might actually get some
real use out of them, with a CAD (Computer Aided Design) program.

>> You probably want to remove the Creator3D board, and save it for
>> use in another (Sun) system. That way, your Ultra-10 will run cooler.
>
> I _have_ to remove it. Can't use VGA with that card plugged in.

Granted -- but you can use the TTYA serial port as long as there
is no keyboard plugged in.

> But I don't have another Sun to use it in.

Yet! One may pop up later -- along with a nice LCD monitor for
it. The one I am using here at present is an ENVISION at 1440x900
resolution. It is a lot lighter than any of the CRTs (so I trust it on
an arm partially over my lap), and warms up instantly. Also, it doesn't
form ripples at the edges of the screen if there is a 60 Hz magnetic
field near it. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
> Hmm ... even the 17" one which I am offering (one of the two
> last non-LCD ones I have) is a bit heavy to ship -- and tricky to pack

That's OK. The VGA 1024x768 is adequate for installation.
Once I have it installed, I can re-direct to X11 on my
1280x960 Mac

--
Wes Groleau

Ostracism: A practice of sticking your head in the sand.