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Apple does listen

 
 
Michelle Steiner
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      06-13-2012, 11:50 PM
You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
of this analysis is wrong, though.

<http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...ave_as_back_in
_mountain_lion/>

Apple Quietly Brings ŒSave As¹ Back in Mountain Lion
Apple is bringing back the ³Save As² feature in Mountain Lion, though it
will only be available as keyboard command, rather than a menu item.
Cult-of-Mac reported that developer documentation in OS X 10.8 ³Mountain
Lion² lists a command for ³Save As,² which was removed in OS X 10.7 ³Lion²
to much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

History
Apple¹s decision to remove ³Save As² in Lion was truly a perplexing one
from the standpoint of long-time Mac and PC users, where saving your
current document with a new name and/or location can be a common task. It
was seen as part of the ³iOS-ification² of OS X, and was related to
Sandboxing, Apple¹s Versions technology, and a general move towards hiding
the file system from Mac users the same way it is hidden from iOS users.

Which is where part of the above-mentioned wailing and gnashing came in, as
there is a sizable chunk of Apple¹s Mac customer base which is just fine
with being able to access the file system, thank you very much. Note that
there is another sizable chunk that are blissfully ignorant and are just as
happy to remain that way, and they¹ll thank you very much, too.

Risking the Deep End
To dip our metaphorical toes into the mixed-metaphor of the nitty-gritty,
Apple began a significant shift towards Sandboxing software in Lion.
Sandboxing is the name of the concept of applications being isolated from
one another, and to a certain extent, from the operating system itself. It
makes software both more robust and more secure, but it can also have the
side effect of making software less useful, or at least less user-oriented.

Note that many third party applications still include ³Save As² as an
option in Lion, but that Apple¹s own software does not. There is a
³Duplicate² command, but no ³Save As.²

As part of this Sandboxing effort, Apple wants documents to belong to the
software that created them, much like is the case in iOS. One benefit of
doing so is that it enabled Apple to let us have access to past versions of
that document‹hence the feature called ³Versions²‹almost like a mini-Time
Machine specific to each application. From the outside, it seemed that such
niceties as ³Save As² were acceptable sacrifices in the march towards
Sandboxing.

Sweet Succor
If current documentation in developer releases of Mountain Lion are any
indication, Apple has capitulated (somewhat) on this issue. As noted by
Cult-of-Mac, there is a keyboard command for ³Save As² listed under the
documentation for ³Auto Save.²

Mountain Lion ³Auto Save² Documentation
Image Credit: Cult-of-Mac

This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
able to do on a computer.

At the same time, we should note that as it is currently documented, the
³Save As² command will not be available in a menu by default. One supposes
that developers could artificially include it in a menu, but it will
otherwise be a semi-secret known only to power users whispering feverishly
to one another about the wonders of having a modicum of control over one¹s
files.

--*
Velveeta is to American cheese as American cheese is to cheese.

--
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
 
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Bread
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      06-14-2012, 12:55 AM
Thanks for the pointer, Michelle

On 2012-06-13 23:50:54 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

> You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
> of this analysis is wrong, though.
>
> <http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...ave_as_back_in
> _mountain_lion/>
>
> Apple Quietly Brings ŒSave As¹ Back in Mountain Lion
> If current documentation in developer releases of Mountain Lion are any
> indication, Apple has capitulated (somewhat) on this issue. As noted by
> Cult-of-Mac, there is a keyboard command for ³Save As² listed under the
> documentation for ³Auto Save.²


Aside from the fact that the only apps I've ever seen so far which
actually use Lion's "duplicate" and auto-save and Versions are Pages
and Numbers (so this is, as far as I can tell, a lot less of an issue
than some of us like to make it -- it really annoys me because I
actually use those two programs pretty constantly) - the thing is that
adding a super-secret hidden keyboard shortcut to get this is kind of
silly.

I mean, we have Duplicate. It's not precisely the same thing. You
have to Duplicate and then Save…

Apple could really have just left Save As in place because after you
Duplicate, the first Save brings up exactly the same "never been saved
before" dialog box which is identical to the "save as…" box (minus the
various export options which are generally now, more sensibly, under
Export…)

I think the problem is really that the effort to make versioning,
auto-save, saving in general, something that users just don't have to
think about (a) underestimates users; and (b) underestimates the
complexity of managing versions. Things need to be as simple as
possible but no simpler. Apple has gone for simpler than possible and
in the process this has led to things like it not being obvious what
happens to past versions of a file once you move it (but only to a
different filesystem). And things like quitting an app with a document
which has been changed be a silent event (rather than at least offering
us the option to have the app bug us by asking if we want the changes
explicitly saved -- because there *is* a difference between an
auto-save version and an explicitly saved version).

I give Apple credit for trying this. It's an important step in a good
direction - people do suck at remembering to save files often enough,
at keeping backups of previous versions, etc. But this is really still
just a first pass at it and I hope they can improve it a whole lot.

Just adding back a secret hidden "save as" is pretty lame, but at least
it's an acknowledgement that their new paradigm isn't quite working for
everyone.

I look forward to this whole thing improving and I actually expect
iCloud to be a part of that, though so far, I'm kind of skeptical. In
the comments attached to the article Michelle linked to, there was
discussion of workflows and the fact that people often group files by
project rather than by the application which created them. iOS doesn't
allow this, but it's an essential thing for most professional work, and
any evolution of the system - including if they want iCloud to be taken
seriously for documents - will have to allow for this. We'll see.

Seriously, though - are there any other apps out there using
Versions/AutoSave besides Apple's? Certainly not Word or Excel (which,
I suspect, outside of Apple's own apps and perhaps web browsers are
probably the most widely used Mac apps). Maybe others are using it and
I just never noticed? (And I'm not talking about apps like Quicken or
Filemaker which have always saved changes as you made them and never
required the user to hit "Save")


 
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nospam
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      06-14-2012, 03:53 AM
In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
> of this analysis is wrong, though.


what part?

...snip..

> This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
> document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
> able to do on a computer.


what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

> At the same time, we should note that as it is currently documented, the
> ³Save As² command will not be available in a menu by default. One supposes
> that developers could artificially include it in a menu, but it will
> otherwise be a semi-secret known only to power users whispering feverishly
> to one another about the wonders of having a modicum of control over one¹s
> files.


more stupidity.
 
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Barry Margolin
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      06-14-2012, 04:35 AM
In article <130620122353346430%(E-Mail Removed)>,
nospam <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
> > of this analysis is wrong, though.

>
> what part?
>
> ..snip..
>
> > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
> > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
> > able to do on a computer.

>
> what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
> sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.


Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
use that?

--
Barry Margolin, (E-Mail Removed)
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
 
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Michelle Steiner
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      06-14-2012, 04:41 AM
In article <130620122353346430%(E-Mail Removed)>,
nospam <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that
> > some of this analysis is wrong, though.

>
> what part?


Pretty much all of their reasoning as to Apple's motives. It's almost as
if Mezei wrote it.

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People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
 
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Michelle Steiner
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      06-14-2012, 04:45 AM
In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
Barry Margolin <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
> > > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should
> > > be
> > > able to do on a computer.

> >
> > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
> > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

>
> Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
> use that?


Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate command.

--
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
 
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nospam
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      06-14-2012, 04:55 AM
In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to,
> > > > ³save a document using a different name and location.² You know, like
> > > > you should be able to do on a computer.
> > >
> > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
> > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

> >
> > Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
> > use that?

>
> Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate command.


i guess they spell duplicate differently in cupertino than in the rest
of the world.

why not command-shift-d? that does not appear to be used in text edit,
so it wouldn't conflict with anything, and it even begins with the same
letter as its function.

or better yet, command-d which has been duplicate in finder since
forever?
 
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Helpful Harry
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      06-14-2012, 06:21 AM
In article <140620120055067967%(E-Mail Removed)>, nospam
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to,
> > > > > ³save a document using a different name and location.² You know, like
> > > > > you should be able to do on a computer.
> > > >
> > > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
> > > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.
> > >
> > > Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
> > > use that?

> >
> > Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate command.

>
> i guess they spell duplicate differently in cupertino than in the rest
> of the world.
>
> why not command-shift-d? that does not appear to be used in text edit,
> so it wouldn't conflict with anything, and it even begins with the same
> letter as its function.
>
> or better yet, command-d which has been duplicate in finder since
> forever?


Very few keyboard shortcuts actually match the function alphabetically.
Cut (Command-X), Paste (Command-V), and Close (Command-W) being the most
obvious.

Helpful Harry )
 
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Helpful Harry
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      06-14-2012, 06:22 AM
In article <130620122353346430%(E-Mail Removed)>, nospam
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
> > of this analysis is wrong, though.

>
> what part?
>
> ..snip..
>
> > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
> > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
> > able to do on a computer.

>
> what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
> sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.


Unless you've had some fingers amputated, it's fairly easy to press that
combination with one hand.

Helpful Harry )
 
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Tim Streater
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      06-14-2012, 09:09 AM
In article <(E-Mail Removed)-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> This keyboard command—Command-Shift-Option-S—will allow users to, “save a
> document using a different name and location.” You know, like you should be
> able to do on a computer.


Eh? You mean I have to press both command-keys?

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
 
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