When applications start, they re-open documents (10.7.4)

In article <jpp52p$n7b$>,
Bread <> wrote:

> >>> I have that box unchecked, but Numbers, Pages, and TextEdit all
> >>> reopen the documents that were open when I quit the apps. When
> >>> quitting the apps, they don't even ask me to save the document.
> >>> (But if I close a window, it does ask.)
> >>
> >> You sure about that? I just quit and restarted Numbers and it did
> >> *not* re-open the document I'd left open.
> >
> > Yes. After making sure no windows were open, I quit Numbers, then ran
> > it again. I typed the number four in cell A2 and quit the app. I was
> > not prompted to save the document. I then ran Numbers again, and the
> > document had "4" in cell A2.
>
> That's because that document had not yet been explicitly saved.
>
> Do the same thing again after saving the file somewhere.

OK, so we weren't doing the same thing, and therefore got different
results. And the "Restore windows when quitting and re-opening apps"
checkbox applies only to documents that have been explicitly saved, which
is not clear from its presentation.

--
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

Helpful Harry <> wrote:

> In article <jpojdm$n07$>,
> (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kir=E1ly?=) wrote:
> > jim <> wrote:
> > >
> > > Apple thinks it's a feature. Many think it's, at best, a nuisance.
> >
> > I don't understand who would ever want this in the first place. If I had
> > wanted all of an app's windows to re-open upon relaunching of the app, I
> > wouldn't have quit the app in the first place. I would have just hidden
> > it.
>
> I too would find it an annoying nuisance, but technically it is just an
> extension of what the Finder has been doing for years - re-opening windows
> that were not closed when the computer was shutdown.
>
> At least it can be turned off, unlike the other similar annoying option
> which you actually have to specify in the window every time you shutdown
> the computer (although there are thrid-party hacks around that).

Mac OS X 10.7.4 remembers the setting you last chose in the
shutdown/restart/logout dialog for "Reopen windows when logging back
in". (Which I'm sure warrants a "finally" from people who care about
this.)

--
David Empson

On 2012-05-25 23:48:37 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

> In article <jpp52p$n7b$>,
> Bread <> wrote:
>
>>>>> I have that box unchecked, but Numbers, Pages, and TextEdit all
>>>>> reopen the documents that were open when I quit the apps. When
>>>>> quitting the apps, they don't even ask me to save the document.
>>>>> (But if I close a window, it does ask.)
>>>>
>>>> You sure about that? I just quit and restarted Numbers and it did
>>>> *not* re-open the document I'd left open.
>>>
>>> Yes. After making sure no windows were open, I quit Numbers, then ran
>>> it again. I typed the number four in cell A2 and quit the app. I was
>>> not prompted to save the document. I then ran Numbers again, and the
>>> document had "4" in cell A2.
>>
>> That's because that document had not yet been explicitly saved.
>>
>> Do the same thing again after saving the file somewhere.
>
> OK, so we weren't doing the same thing,

You just said that it re-opened the docs that were open. It doesn't -
usually - with the exception of the case where the doc hadn't been
saved yet.

> and therefore got different
> results. And the "Restore windows when quitting and re-opening apps"
> checkbox applies only to documents that have been explicitly saved, which
> is not clear from its presentation.

As I said, that's a side effect of the autosave issue, moreso than
a lack of clarity regarding auto-restore. If the unsaved documents
were not automatically re-opened, then they'd be lost. I think Apple
blew it and instead of behaving as you've observed, the app should
note that you haven't yet saved the document and ask if you want to
save it. But Apple is trying to eliminate that question from ever
happening and in trying to get it that way, you'd be facing either
a lost bit of work in that "unsaved" document, or the app reopening
it even if you meant it not to (your case), or them having to come
up with some other interface to find these "lost" unsaved docs.

I can see why they did it this way - it's the most consistent and
least intrusive way to do it while getting rid of the "unsaved doc"
dialog. Neither of us has to like it, I suppose.

In article <jpp84t$o1v$>,
Bread <> wrote:

> >> That's because that document had not yet been explicitly saved.
> >>
> >> Do the same thing again after saving the file somewhere.
> >
> > OK, so we weren't doing the same thing,
>
> You just said that it re-opened the docs that were open.

I said that was my experience.

> It doesn't - usually - with the exception of the case where the doc
> hadn't been saved yet.

Right, which had not been mentioned until I narrated what I had done.

> > and therefore got different results. And the "Restore windows when
> > quitting and re-opening apps" checkbox applies only to documents that
> > have been explicitly saved, which is not clear from its presentation.
>
> As I said, that's a side effect of the autosave issue, moreso than a
> lack of clarity regarding auto-restore.

It is a lack of clarity in the explanation of that checkbox, regardless of
the cause of the behavior.

> If the unsaved documents were not automatically re-opened, then they'd
> be lost. I think Apple blew it and instead of behaving as you've
> observed, the app should note that you haven't yet saved the document
> and ask if you want to save it.

I agree.

> Neither of us has to like it, I suppose.

I can live with it.

--
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <jpp32l$nru$>, Bread
<> wrote:
> On 2012-05-25 18:35:34 +0000, Király said:
> > jim <> wrote:
> >>
> >> Apple thinks it's a feature. Many think it's, at best, a nuisance.
> >
> > I don't understand who would ever want this in the first place. If I had
> > wanted all of an app's windows to re-open upon relaunching of the app, I
> > wouldn't have quit the app in the first place. I would have just hidden
> > it.
>
> I like it in one and only one app - my web browser.
>
> I dispise it in things like Numbers and Pages.
>
> I also hate that under Lion, Numbers and Pages don't ask me if I want
> to save my work before quitting. I know - they are "autosaving" but
> that's not the same as explicitly doing "Save a Version". I'm still
> not too happy with the autosave/versions thing. Often when I open a
> file and edit it, I *don't* want the changes saved. (Nevertheless, I
> see the value and am trying to train myself in a different workflow so
> I'm working *with* autosave/versions rather than fighting it).

Just turn "versions" off. It's one of the annoying new "features" that I
will be turning off.

Helpful Harry )

In article <jpp84t$o1v$>,
Bread <> wrote:

> As I said, that's a side effect of the autosave issue, moreso than
> a lack of clarity regarding auto-restore. If the unsaved documents
> were not automatically re-opened, then they'd be lost. I think Apple
> blew it and instead of behaving as you've observed, the app should
> note that you haven't yet saved the document and ask if you want to
> save it. But Apple is trying to eliminate that question from ever
> happening and in trying to get it that way, you'd be facing either
> a lost bit of work in that "unsaved" document, or the app reopening
> it even if you meant it not to (your case), or them having to come
> up with some other interface to find these "lost" unsaved docs.

It seems like Apple is trying to avoid the situation where an
application with unsaved documents can cancel a logout or shutdown.
Using this procedure the OS can force applications to quit without loss
of unsaved work.

--
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

Helpful Harry <> wrote:

> In article <jpp32l$nru$>, Bread
> <> wrote:
> > On 2012-05-25 18:35:34 +0000, Király said:
> > > jim <> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Apple thinks it's a feature. Many think it's, at best, a nuisance.
> > >
> > > I don't understand who would ever want this in the first place. If I had
> > > wanted all of an app's windows to re-open upon relaunching of the app, I
> > > wouldn't have quit the app in the first place. I would have just hidden
> > > it.
> >
> > I like it in one and only one app - my web browser.
> >
> > I dispise it in things like Numbers and Pages.
> >
> > I also hate that under Lion, Numbers and Pages don't ask me if I want
> > to save my work before quitting. I know - they are "autosaving" but
> > that's not the same as explicitly doing "Save a Version". I'm still
> > not too happy with the autosave/versions thing. Often when I open a
> > file and edit it, I *don't* want the changes saved. (Nevertheless, I
> > see the value and am trying to train myself in a different workflow so
> > I'm working *with* autosave/versions rather than fighting it).
>
> Just turn "versions" off. It's one of the annoying new "features" that I
> will be turning off.

You can't "turn off" Versions. The application developer has a choice
about whether or not use Autosave and Versions, and whether or not to
make its use optional.

GraphicConverter lets you pick whether to use Autosave and Versions.

iWork applications do not. If you are on Lion, you get Autosave and
Versions. If you are on Snow Leopard, you get Save and Save As.

If you are using an application in the second camp, and you really don't
want Autosave and Versions, your only option is to downgrade your OS or
switch applications.

I happen to like Versions (and have put it to good use since moving to
Lion), don't mind Autosave, and my editing workflow almost never
involved Save As anyway, so its disappearance does not bother me.

If I'm working on a new document based on an existing one (e.g. a
monthly article for my user group magazine), I start by duplicating the
previous article in Finder, rename it, then open and modify the new
document.

With Lion, I could use the Duplicate command in Pages to do the same
thing, but with the extra step of having to switch to the old document
window and close it (which seems like an utterly stupid design), and I'd
still need to save and name the new document.

--
David Empson

In article <1kkphza.2dnqgk16us9a8N%>,
(David Empson) wrote:
> Helpful Harry <> wrote:
> > In article <jpp32l$nru$>, Bread
> > <> wrote:
> > > On 2012-05-25 18:35:34 +0000, Király said:
> > > > jim <> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Apple thinks it's a feature. Many think it's, at best, a nuisance.
> > > >
> > > > I don't understand who would ever want this in the first place. If I had
> > > > wanted all of an app's windows to re-open upon relaunching of the app, I
> > > > wouldn't have quit the app in the first place. I would have just hidden
> > > > it.
> > >
> > > I like it in one and only one app - my web browser.
> > >
> > > I dispise it in things like Numbers and Pages.
> > >
> > > I also hate that under Lion, Numbers and Pages don't ask me if I want
> > > to save my work before quitting. I know - they are "autosaving" but
> > > that's not the same as explicitly doing "Save a Version". I'm still
> > > not too happy with the autosave/versions thing. Often when I open a
> > > file and edit it, I *don't* want the changes saved. (Nevertheless, I
> > > see the value and am trying to train myself in a different workflow so
> > > I'm working *with* autosave/versions rather than fighting it).
> >
> > Just turn "versions" off. It's one of the annoying new "features" that I
> > will be turning off.
>
> You can't "turn off" Versions. The application developer has a choice
> about whether or not use Autosave and Versions, and whether or not to
> make its use optional.

I did read somewhere about how to turn it off (probably an unofficial
hack) ... but whether that actually works or not I don't know since I
don't have Lion.

If it can't be turned off in Moutain Lion, then it's the biggest mistake
I've seen Apple ever make. (

I have enough problems with novice users creating multiple copies of
documents when unarchiving Zip files they've been sent and downloading the
same file multiple times, let alone the OS / applications now creating
their own duplicates.

Helpful Harry )

Helpful Harry <> wrote:

> In article <1kkphza.2dnqgk16us9a8N%>,
> (David Empson) wrote:
>
> > Helpful Harry <> wrote:
> >
> > > Just turn "versions" off. It's one of the annoying new "features" that I
> > > will be turning off.
> >
> > You can't "turn off" Versions. The application developer has a choice
> > about whether or not use Autosave and Versions, and whether or not to
> > make its use optional.
>
> I did read somewhere about how to turn it off (probably an unofficial
> hack) ... but whether that actually works or not I don't know since I
> don't have Lion.

From a brief Google search, I didn't spot any actual solutions, just
lots of people asking the question. There was a suggestion for how to
delete earlier versions (to recover disk space) but it doesn't prevent
further ones being created.

> If it can't be turned off in Moutain Lion, then it's the biggest mistake
> I've seen Apple ever make. (
>
> I have enough problems with novice users creating multiple copies of
> documents when unarchiving Zip files they've been sent and downloading the
> same file multiple times, let alone the OS / applications now creating
> their own duplicates.

Versions doesn't create extra copies of a document that the user sees.
Another user-visible file would only be created if the user chose the
Duplicate command (or duplicated or otherwise copied the document in
Finder).

Versions maintains a set of databases (implemented using SQLite, if
anyone cares) in a hidden folder at the root level of the drive, which
holds older copies of changed portions of documents, allowing earlier
versions to be reconstructed. It has a time-staggered model similar to
Time Machine, but it is implemented separately.

--
David Empson

In article <1kkprjb.tgd2jm1qqc7kwN%>,
(David Empson) wrote:

> Helpful Harry <> wrote:
>
> > In article <1kkphza.2dnqgk16us9a8N%>,
> > (David Empson) wrote:
> >
> > > Helpful Harry <> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just turn "versions" off. It's one of the annoying new "features" that I
> > > > will be turning off.
> > >
> > > You can't "turn off" Versions. The application developer has a choice
> > > about whether or not use Autosave and Versions, and whether or not to
> > > make its use optional.
> >
> > I did read somewhere about how to turn it off (probably an unofficial
> > hack) ... but whether that actually works or not I don't know since I
> > don't have Lion.
>
> From a brief Google search, I didn't spot any actual solutions, just
> lots of people asking the question. There was a suggestion for how to
> delete earlier versions (to recover disk space) but it doesn't prevent
> further ones being created.

I can't remember where I read it. It may well have been a hack or simply
someone saying you "can" do something like lock the "invisible" folder,
but since I don't have Lion nor have any clients likely to have Lion /
Mountain Lion any time soon, I didn't bother fully reading it.



> > If it can't be turned off in Mountain Lion, then it's the biggest mistake
> > I've seen Apple ever make. (
> >
> > I have enough problems with novice users creating multiple copies of
> > documents when unarchiving Zip files they've been sent and downloading the
> > same file multiple times, let alone the OS / applications now creating
> > their own duplicates.
>
> Versions doesn't create extra copies of a document that the user sees.
> Another user-visible file would only be created if the user chose the
> Duplicate command (or duplicated or otherwise copied the document in
> Finder).
>
> Versions maintains a set of databases (implemented using SQLite, if
> anyone cares) in a hidden folder at the root level of the drive, which
> holds older copies of changed portions of documents, allowing earlier
> versions to be reconstructed. It has a time-staggered model similar to
> Time Machine, but it is implemented separately.

The point, although unclear, was that I'm still going to have people
wondering where their hard drive space is disappearing to. It's a
"feature" that SHOULD be optional at the OS-level, not the
application-level.

Helpful Harry )