A dilemma on buying a new case like Antec P180, the cost, and future upgrades...

Since you are computer builder...

I have a dilemma. I am planning to get an Antec P180 case or something similiar
(high-end full-tower ATX case) to replace my generic ATX full-tower computer case
(bought it in 1998) due to my heat problems. However, Antec is expensive. I know it
has fancy setup to keep computer parts cool even in a hot environment (e.g., 90
degrees(F) room that makes 160+F degrees Athlon64 3200[754 CPU] and 120+F degrees
motherboard).

My problem is that do I want to invest a lot for this case ($125 without taxes and
shipping fees) that might not last more than a couple years because Intel and/or AMD
is going to push BTX architectures? I do major computer upgrades (motherboard, CPU,
RAM, etc.) every 2-3 years for gaming. I don't know what I am getting for my next
major computer upgrade (e.g., Intel or AMD, etc.) that will probably happen after
September 2006 or next year (might just wait for Vista).

I am a big PC gamer who likes to play the latest games. I am not planning to keep this
case for older computers because lack of space (why I have a minitower for the Linux
box with old computer parts).

Thank you in advance.
--
"You're kissing an ant hill." --Mike Nelson
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
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( )

wrote:
> Since you are computer builder...
>
> I have a dilemma. I am planning to get an Antec P180 case or something similiar
> (high-end full-tower ATX case) to replace my generic ATX full-tower computer case
> (bought it in 1998) due to my heat problems. However, Antec is expensive. I know it
> has fancy setup to keep computer parts cool even in a hot environment (e.g., 90
> degrees(F) room that makes 160+F degrees Athlon64 3200[754 CPU] and 120+F degrees
> motherboard).
>
> My problem is that do I want to invest a lot for this case ($125 without taxes and
> shipping fees) that might not last more than a couple years because Intel and/or AMD
> is going to push BTX architectures? I do major computer upgrades (motherboard, CPU,
> RAM, etc.) every 2-3 years for gaming. I don't know what I am getting for my next
> major computer upgrade (e.g., Intel or AMD, etc.) that will probably happen after
> September 2006 or next year (might just wait for Vista).
>
> I am a big PC gamer who likes to play the latest games. I am not planning to keep this
> case for older computers because lack of space (why I have a minitower for the Linux
> box with old computer parts).
>
> Thank you in advance.

If the whole ATX now vs. BTX then (maybe) thing has you really really
worried, you could always buy a case that swings both ways, as it were.
There are certainly several out there but this one caught my eye:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/...es/page11.html

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

In alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt John McGaw <> wrote:
> wrote:
> > Since you are computer builder...
> >
> > I have a dilemma. I am planning to get an Antec P180 case or something similiar
> > (high-end full-tower ATX case) to replace my generic ATX full-tower computer case
> > (bought it in 1998) due to my heat problems. However, Antec is expensive. I know it
> > has fancy setup to keep computer parts cool even in a hot environment (e.g., 90
> > degrees(F) room that makes 160+F degrees Athlon64 3200[754 CPU] and 120+F degrees
> > motherboard).
> >
> > My problem is that do I want to invest a lot for this case ($125 without taxes and
> > shipping fees) that might not last more than a couple years because Intel and/or AMD
> > is going to push BTX architectures? I do major computer upgrades (motherboard, CPU,
> > RAM, etc.) every 2-3 years for gaming. I don't know what I am getting for my next
> > major computer upgrade (e.g., Intel or AMD, etc.) that will probably happen after
> > September 2006 or next year (might just wait for Vista).
> >
> > I am a big PC gamer who likes to play the latest games. I am not planning to keep this
> > case for older computers because lack of space (why I have a minitower for the Linux
> > box with old computer parts).
> >
> > Thank you in advance.

> If the whole ATX now vs. BTX then (maybe) thing has you really really
> worried, you could always buy a case that swings both ways, as it were.
> There are certainly several out there but this one caught my eye:

> http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/...es/page11.html

How is it compared to Antec's cooling. That's the biggest concern: cooling especially when my
room gets like 90F degrees.

--
"It's like stepping on ants... I don't step on ants, Major." --Odo and Kira from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net
\ _ / Please remove ANT if replying by e-mail.
( )

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:25:13 -0500, wrote:


>> http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/...es/page11.html
>
>How is it compared to Antec's cooling. That's the biggest concern: cooling especially when my
>room gets like 90F degrees.

I'm sure it cools great, after you cut out the front and
rear fan grills that is (replacing with round grills if
necessary, which would be a very good idea at least for the
front mounted fan).

Even better with the integral water cooled, though at $350
it is more than a little beyond your target price.

Let's go over the basics of how to assess a good case for
your needs:

Rear 120mm exhaust fan. No stamped-in-metal grill on it,
only a minimal rounded wire grill if anything. A thicker
fan (38mm for example) will do better than a 25mm thick, but
seldom do cases come with 38mm thick. If you were to
puchase one the 38mm thick is the better choice but it
should still be acceptible with 25mm, particularly with good
front intake area.

Bottom front fan(s), also with minimal intake area
restrictions (no stamped-in-metal grill, no filter panel, no
perforated metal mesh). That is, you could have these
impedances to flow but it will require more fans and/or
higher RPM to move same air, and necessarily more noise per
flow rate. If the environment were dusty and you didn't
mind noise, the filter would be preferrible over the other
options though for best result the filter area should be
maximized, not just a panel that snaps onto the fan frame.

By "fan(s)" above I mean that a single 80mm is likely not
sufficient, perhaps if it were very high RPM but still it is
the less optimal alternative. Multiple 80mm fans would
work, possibly 1 92mm fan though again at your anticipated
temps, it is borderline unless you accept high RPM (noise).
As with the rear fan, a thicker fan will be better but many
cases don't have enough clearance in front for much thicker
than 25mm. The best configuration for cooling is at least 2
x 92mm fans, because 92mm is narrow enough that the entire
*exhaust* from the fans can be kept in the space of the
drive rack, channeled by the rack so the entire airflow
passes through it. 120mm would be the lower noise option
but it is not reasonably possible (not with any stock cases
at least) to adapt the 120mm width down to the width of the
drive rack so all the flow goes through it.

It isn't necessary to have ALL the flow through the drive
rack, but it is optimal to get greatest benefit from any
given amount of airflow. The system you build could still
be relatively quite with forethought, even in ~90F ambient.

After having the bottom front and mid-top rear chassis fans
considered, you have to assess the adequacy of the heatsink
you choose, for both CPU and video. Additional
consideration of whether you would overclock and how much,
would be made. If these 'sinks are not enough on their own
you will need to add side fans or ducts in the side panel
across from the hot part(s), just be sure that if you do,
you have a reasonable front pusher fan to force enough air
through the drive racks.

Many cases come close enough to this already, but so long as
you don't buy a cheap (flimsy, thin-walled) case, having the
case ahead of time can allow modifying it as needed. Older
large ATX cases are particularly good for this purpose as
they may start out with horrible airflow but they have large
solid paneling that is thicker than typical today. IOW, if
you grabbed a random 1996 ATX case from Gateway, HP, etc,
you may be able to fit a 120mm in the front and at least a
92mm if not 2 x 92mm or 120mm in the rear. 120mm in the
rear was more difficult with most due to the cases being
slightly too narrow but I've done it to a few HP cases (I
forget the model #s though).

With several fans and/or the possibility of needing higher
RPM, the thing to avoid most is thin walled aluminum cases.
Aluminum is less rigid at same thickness as steel so you
might find increased noise with 1.0mm thick aluminum or
excessive noise with 0.8mm thick. Personally I completely
avoid 0.8mm thick Al, unless it is a very small case as the
smaller the panels are on it, the less they will vibrate
with any given fan installed. Fan isolation grommets,
plugs, mats, etc, can help but in some cases they also
reduce flow rate some and may increase the turbulent noise
if the fan isn't low-RPM.

So in short, pick a case with the largest fans you can in
the bottom front and mid-top rear and make sure those have
unobstructed grills. Add fans to side panels if the
measured component temps are too high.

> >> http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/...es/page11.html
> >
> >How is it compared to Antec's cooling. That's the biggest concern: cooling especially when my
> >room gets like 90F degrees.

> I'm sure it cools great, after you cut out the front and
> rear fan grills that is (replacing with round grills if
> necessary, which would be a very good idea at least for the
> front mounted fan).

> Even better with the integral water cooled, though at $350
> it is more than a little beyond your target price.

There is no way I am going overboard with water cooling since it is messy and requires
a lot of maintenance. It doesn't help that I am disabled (e.g., can't even move,
open/close case [even slide covers], remove cards, etc.).


> Let's go over the basics of how to assess a good case for
> your needs:

> Rear 120mm exhaust fan. No stamped-in-metal grill on it,
> only a minimal rounded wire grill if anything. A thicker
> fan (38mm for example) will do better than a 25mm thick, but
> seldom do cases come with 38mm thick. If you were to
> puchase one the 38mm thick is the better choice but it
> should still be acceptible with 25mm, particularly with good
> front intake area.

> Bottom front fan(s), also with minimal intake area
> restrictions (no stamped-in-metal grill, no filter panel, no
> perforated metal mesh). That is, you could have these
> impedances to flow but it will require more fans and/or
> higher RPM to move same air, and necessarily more noise per
> flow rate. If the environment were dusty and you didn't
> mind noise, the filter would be preferrible over the other
> options though for best result the filter area should be
> maximized, not just a panel that snaps onto the fan frame.

> By "fan(s)" above I mean that a single 80mm is likely not
> sufficient, perhaps if it were very high RPM but still it is
> the less optimal alternative. Multiple 80mm fans would
> work, possibly 1 92mm fan though again at your anticipated
> temps, it is borderline unless you accept high RPM (noise).
> As with the rear fan, a thicker fan will be better but many
> cases don't have enough clearance in front for much thicker
> than 25mm. The best configuration for cooling is at least 2
> x 92mm fans, because 92mm is narrow enough that the entire
> *exhaust* from the fans can be kept in the space of the
> drive rack, channeled by the rack so the entire airflow
> passes through it. 120mm would be the lower noise option
> but it is not reasonably possible (not with any stock cases
> at least) to adapt the 120mm width down to the width of the
> drive rack so all the flow goes through it.

> It isn't necessary to have ALL the flow through the drive
> rack, but it is optimal to get greatest benefit from any
> given amount of airflow. The system you build could still
> be relatively quite with forethought, even in ~90F ambient.

> After having the bottom front and mid-top rear chassis fans
> considered, you have to assess the adequacy of the heatsink
> you choose, for both CPU and video. Additional
> consideration of whether you would overclock and how much,
> would be made. If these 'sinks are not enough on their own
> you will need to add side fans or ducts in the side panel
> across from the hot part(s), just be sure that if you do,
> you have a reasonable front pusher fan to force enough air
> through the drive racks.

> Many cases come close enough to this already, but so long as
> you don't buy a cheap (flimsy, thin-walled) case, having the
> case ahead of time can allow modifying it as needed. Older
> large ATX cases are particularly good for this purpose as
> they may start out with horrible airflow but they have large
> solid paneling that is thicker than typical today. IOW, if
> you grabbed a random 1996 ATX case from Gateway, HP, etc,
> you may be able to fit a 120mm in the front and at least a
> 92mm if not 2 x 92mm or 120mm in the rear. 120mm in the
> rear was more difficult with most due to the cases being
> slightly too narrow but I've done it to a few HP cases (I
> forget the model #s though).

> With several fans and/or the possibility of needing higher
> RPM, the thing to avoid most is thin walled aluminum cases.
> Aluminum is less rigid at same thickness as steel so you
> might find increased noise with 1.0mm thick aluminum or
> excessive noise with 0.8mm thick. Personally I completely
> avoid 0.8mm thick Al, unless it is a very small case as the
> smaller the panels are on it, the less they will vibrate
> with any given fan installed. Fan isolation grommets,
> plugs, mats, etc, can help but in some cases they also
> reduce flow rate some and may increase the turbulent noise
> if the fan isn't low-RPM.

> So in short, pick a case with the largest fans you can in
> the bottom front and mid-top rear and make sure those have
> unobstructed grills. Add fans to side panels if the
> measured component temps are too high.

Thanks for the tips. So far, I think I am getting an used Antec P180 with four 120mm
fans for cheaper price (beats paying for a new one). I hope this case makes a big
difference compared to my current 1998 ATX case.
--
"It's like stepping on ants... I don't step on ants, Major." --Odo and Kira from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net
\ _ / Please remove ANT if replying by e-mail.
( )

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:38:31 -0500, wrote:


>Thanks for the tips. So far, I think I am getting an used Antec P180 with four 120mm
>fans for cheaper price (beats paying for a new one). I hope this case makes a big
>difference compared to my current 1998 ATX case.


Well if you "need" or want a new case that's fine but I've
modded tons of '98 and older cases to the point where they'd
have enough airflow for modern parts at ~ 90F. When all
else fails, just about any case can have a 120mm fan put
into the side panel. If you can't get the hole cut for it,
you might have a neighbor who can. Various case-mod vendors
sell edging for fan holes but you can also use door edge
guard available from auto parts stores, if the channel is
narrow enough, but if it has the hot melt glue in the
channel then it may work fine either way providing you get
that glue hot enough to make it stick good.

> >Thanks for the tips. So far, I think I am getting an used Antec P180 with four 120mm
> >fans for cheaper price (beats paying for a new one). I hope this case makes a big
> >difference compared to my current 1998 ATX case.

> Well if you "need" or want a new case that's fine but I've
> modded tons of '98 and older cases to the point where they'd
> have enough airflow for modern parts at ~ 90F. When all
> else fails, just about any case can have a 120mm fan put
> into the side panel. If you can't get the hole cut for it,
> you might have a neighbor who can. Various case-mod vendors
> sell edging for fan holes but you can also use door edge
> guard available from auto parts stores, if the channel is
> narrow enough, but if it has the hot melt glue in the
> channel then it may work fine either way providing you get
> that glue hot enough to make it stick good.

Well, my hardware friend said the inside setup of this 1998 full tower ATX case was designed
for P2 and ATX v1.0. So, we would still be limited in the case.
--
"It's like stepping on ants... I don't step on ants, Major." --Odo and Kira from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net
\ _ / Please remove ANT if replying by e-mail.
( )

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:06:52 -0500, wrote:

>> >Thanks for the tips. So far, I think I am getting an used Antec P180 with four 120mm
>> >fans for cheaper price (beats paying for a new one). I hope this case makes a big
>> >difference compared to my current 1998 ATX case.
>
>> Well if you "need" or want a new case that's fine but I've
>> modded tons of '98 and older cases to the point where they'd
>> have enough airflow for modern parts at ~ 90F. When all
>> else fails, just about any case can have a 120mm fan put
>> into the side panel. If you can't get the hole cut for it,
>> you might have a neighbor who can. Various case-mod vendors
>> sell edging for fan holes but you can also use door edge
>> guard available from auto parts stores, if the channel is
>> narrow enough, but if it has the hot melt glue in the
>> channel then it may work fine either way providing you get
>> that glue hot enough to make it stick good.
>
>Well, my hardware friend said the inside setup of this 1998 full tower ATX case was designed
>for P2 and ATX v1.0. So, we would still be limited in the case.

Of course it was, as would any '98 case be... Doesn't
necessarily matter, the same applies.

What you give up with an old OEM case-

- Flashy colors and possibly a window

- Possibly front USB or audio (some OEM had them by '98 and
others didn't). It'd be USB1 though, officially, so if it
has a ribbon cable connector it isn't 'supposed' to be used
with USB2 though might work. If a rounded shielded cable
instead of a ribbon, it'd probably be fine.

- Lower ventilation, but this was what I'd addressed
previously, the need to cut a large fan hole.

- "Some" OEM cases had the rear motherboard I/O port holes
stamped into the rear wall of the case instead of being in a
removable rectangular I/O plate. That is obvious enough by
looking at the rear. If the plate pops out, you merely need
any standard retail board that includes the new matching
plate... though some of the really cheap low-end boards that
used the old standard ATX backplate might not ship with the
replacement plate, but these boards are fewer and fewer
every year and today are such low-end junk that they're best
avoided altogether no matter what case you use.

- "Some" OEM cases didn't have enough of a PSU cutout in
the rear to accomodate a PSU with a power switch on it. It
can be an issue if you already have an intention to use a
PSU you already had which has that switch, but there are
still PSU available w/o the switch.

- "Some" cases didn't provide very good airflow routing
through the HDD bay, though it was most often the 3rd party
clone cases that had this fault, the OEM cases tended to
have a fair # of holes in the front, BUT possibly not much
intake area on the front (plastic) bezel. These issues
would have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis (pun
intended), though if the side panel fan can be installed low
near the drive rack it may be sufficient to cool the drive
bay too.

IOW, where there is a will there is a way to make just about
any case work. I've even taken PVC pipe end caps, drilled
holes in their ends and used them as elevated feet to get a
system off the ground an extra 1.5" so a fan hole and fan
could be placed on the bottom side of the case. I don't
generally recommend it but it was an interesting experiment
and worked ok, but this particular case had 1.2mm thick
steel with multiple wider folds on each side (where the
side-panels slid on) resulting in it retaining enough
rigidity after the large fan hole was cut out. I suppose I
could've used a metal framed fan to regain some strength if
it had been necessary but I had a case of plastic framed
fans so the goal was to use them instead of paying premium
for a single metal framed fan.

On 6/27/2006 1:36 PM, kony wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:25:13 -0500, wrote:
>
>
>>> http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/...es/page11.html
>>
>> How is it compared to Antec's cooling. That's the biggest concern: cooling especially when my
>> room gets like 90F degrees.
>
> I'm sure it cools great, after you cut out the front and
> rear fan grills that is (replacing with round grills if
> necessary, which would be a very good idea at least for the
> front mounted fan).
>
> Even better with the integral water cooled, though at $350
> it is more than a little beyond your target price.
>
> Let's go over the basics of how to assess a good case for
> your needs:
>
> Rear 120mm exhaust fan. No stamped-in-metal grill on it,
> only a minimal rounded wire grill if anything. A thicker
> fan (38mm for example) will do better than a 25mm thick, but
> seldom do cases come with 38mm thick. If you were to
> puchase one the 38mm thick is the better choice but it
> should still be acceptible with 25mm, particularly with good
> front intake area.
>
> Bottom front fan(s), also with minimal intake area
> restrictions (no stamped-in-metal grill, no filter panel, no
> perforated metal mesh). That is, you could have these
> impedances to flow but it will require more fans and/or
> higher RPM to move same air, and necessarily more noise per
> flow rate. If the environment were dusty and you didn't
> mind noise, the filter would be preferrible over the other
> options though for best result the filter area should be
> maximized, not just a panel that snaps onto the fan frame.
>
> By "fan(s)" above I mean that a single 80mm is likely not
> sufficient, perhaps if it were very high RPM but still it is
> the less optimal alternative. Multiple 80mm fans would
> work, possibly 1 92mm fan though again at your anticipated
> temps, it is borderline unless you accept high RPM (noise).
> As with the rear fan, a thicker fan will be better but many
> cases don't have enough clearance in front for much thicker
> than 25mm. The best configuration for cooling is at least 2
> x 92mm fans, because 92mm is narrow enough that the entire
> *exhaust* from the fans can be kept in the space of the
> drive rack, channeled by the rack so the entire airflow
> passes through it. 120mm would be the lower noise option
> but it is not reasonably possible (not with any stock cases
> at least) to adapt the 120mm width down to the width of the
> drive rack so all the flow goes through it.
>
> It isn't necessary to have ALL the flow through the drive
> rack, but it is optimal to get greatest benefit from any
> given amount of airflow. The system you build could still
> be relatively quite with forethought, even in ~90F ambient.
>
> After having the bottom front and mid-top rear chassis fans
> considered, you have to assess the adequacy of the heatsink
> you choose, for both CPU and video. Additional
> consideration of whether you would overclock and how much,
> would be made. If these 'sinks are not enough on their own
> you will need to add side fans or ducts in the side panel
> across from the hot part(s), just be sure that if you do,
> you have a reasonable front pusher fan to force enough air
> through the drive racks.
>
> Many cases come close enough to this already, but so long as
> you don't buy a cheap (flimsy, thin-walled) case, having the
> case ahead of time can allow modifying it as needed. Older
> large ATX cases are particularly good for this purpose as
> they may start out with horrible airflow but they have large
> solid paneling that is thicker than typical today. IOW, if
> you grabbed a random 1996 ATX case from Gateway, HP, etc,
> you may be able to fit a 120mm in the front and at least a
> 92mm if not 2 x 92mm or 120mm in the rear. 120mm in the
> rear was more difficult with most due to the cases being
> slightly too narrow but I've done it to a few HP cases (I
> forget the model #s though).
>
> With several fans and/or the possibility of needing higher
> RPM, the thing to avoid most is thin walled aluminum cases.
> Aluminum is less rigid at same thickness as steel so you
> might find increased noise with 1.0mm thick aluminum or
> excessive noise with 0.8mm thick. Personally I completely
> avoid 0.8mm thick Al, unless it is a very small case as the
> smaller the panels are on it, the less they will vibrate
> with any given fan installed. Fan isolation grommets,
> plugs, mats, etc, can help but in some cases they also
> reduce flow rate some and may increase the turbulent noise
> if the fan isn't low-RPM.
>
> So in short, pick a case with the largest fans you can in
> the bottom front and mid-top rear and make sure those have
> unobstructed grills. Add fans to side panels if the
> measured component temps are too high.

================================================== =================

This is an interesting and useful discussion but seems to me, it misses
a central point. Whatever is this user doing, working or gaming in a 90
F environment? Maybe the need here is not a better cooled box but a
better cooled place for the box and user. Wall off somehow a small
space in a larger room, and cool that?

Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [2011 Aug 09]

Martha Adams wrote:
>
>> So in short, pick a case with the largest fans you can in
>> the bottom front and mid-top rear and make sure those have
>> unobstructed grills. Add fans to side panels if the
>> measured component temps are too high.
>
> ================================================== =================
>
> This is an interesting and useful discussion but seems to me, it
> misses a central point. Whatever is this user doing, working or
> gaming in a 90 F environment? Maybe the need here is not a better
> cooled box but a better cooled place for the box and user. Wall off
> somehow a small space in a larger room, and cool that?
>
> Titeotwawki -- Martha Adams [2011 Aug 09]

But you've answered a post from 5 years ago.

--
SteveH