Where does a former Dell customer go?

In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
available by this direct PC maker company.

In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were a step
ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
have changed.

Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
support, the experience I won't soon forget

I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)

The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.

Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.

Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
competitive.

Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
etc...) that's all bullshit. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
American companies.

Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.

If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
solutions.

Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.

RMZ wrote:
> In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
> that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
> most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
> buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
> available by this direct PC maker company.
>
> In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
> the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
> and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were a step
> ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
> have changed.
>
> Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
> Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
> within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
> problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
> the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
> exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
> hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
> room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
> rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
> Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
> support, the experience I won't soon forget
>
> I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
> call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
> transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
> this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
> returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
> with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
> call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
> up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
> support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)
>
> The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
> and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
> times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
> something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
> could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
> are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
> get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
> choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
> impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
> for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
> in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
> dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
> happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
> day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
> restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
> to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
> as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
> immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
> there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
> some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
> removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
> three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
> happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.
>
> Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.
>
> Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
> Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
> and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
> like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
> terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
> changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
> of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
> to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
> product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
> competitive.
>
> Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
> become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
> etc...) that's all bullshit. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
> unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
> their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
> directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
> along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
> to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
> Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
> American companies.
>
> Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
> path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
> purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
> been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
> rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
> do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.
>
> If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
> or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
> computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
> was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
> dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
> Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
> choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
> solutions.
>
> Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.

Good luck with whatever brand of computer you buy. Today, I picked up a
6-month old HP laptop for service. Crapped out completely. No warranty
either. And just try to get an HP repaired under warranty, unless you
are a business account. What else have we got in name-brand desktops?
Acer-eGateMachines. Sony. Not much else. More brands of laptops,
though. Well, try to get spare parts for a Sony anything, a Toshiba
laptop, a Fujitsu laptop. Check out the tech support available on the
mfr's web site BEFORE you buy.

I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
cars for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak after
5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.

Finally, go build your own. Then you will have no one to blame for poor
quality except yourself... Ben Myers

On Dec 24, 6:07*pm, Ben Myers <ben_my...@charter.net> wrote:
> RMZ wrote:
> > In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
> > that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
> > most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
> > buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
> > available by this direct PC maker company.
>
> > In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
> > the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
> > and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were *a step
> > ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
> > have changed.
>
> > Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
> > Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
> > within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
> > problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
> > the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
> > exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
> > hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
> > room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
> > rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
> > Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
> > support, the experience I won't soon forget
>
> > I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
> > call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
> > transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
> > this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
> > returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
> > with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
> > call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
> > up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
> > support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)
>
> > The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
> > and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
> > times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
> > something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
> > could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
> > are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
> > get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
> > choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
> > impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
> > for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
> > in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
> > dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
> > happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
> > day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
> > restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
> > to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
> > as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
> > immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
> > there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
> > some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
> > removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
> > three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
> > happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.
>
> > Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.
>
> > Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
> > Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
> > and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
> > like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
> > terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
> > changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
> > of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
> > to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
> > product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
> > competitive.
>
> > Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
> > become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
> > etc...) that's all bullshit. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
> > unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
> > their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
> > directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
> > along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
> > to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
> > Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
> > American companies.
>
> > Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
> > path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
> > purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
> > been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
> > rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
> > do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.
>
> > If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
> > or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
> > computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
> > was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
> > dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
> > Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
> > choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
> > solutions.
>
> > Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.
>
> Good luck with whatever brand of computer you buy. *Today, I picked up a
> 6-month old HP laptop for service. *Crapped out completely. *No warranty
> either. *And just try to get an HP repaired under warranty, unless you
> are a business account. *What else have we got in name-brand desktops?
> Acer-eGateMachines. *Sony. *Not much else. *More brands of laptops,
> though. *Well, try to get spare parts for a Sony anything, a Toshiba
> laptop, a Fujitsu laptop. *Check out the tech support available on the
> mfr's web site BEFORE you buy.
>
> I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. *It is an
> industry-wide trend. *Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
> break. *It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
> cars for many years. *A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak after
> 5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
> Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.
>
> Finally, go build your own. *Then you will have no one to blame for poor
> quality except yourself... Ben Myers

Ben you're right and that's why I titled it "Where does a former Dell
customer go..." There really isn't an answer. I know before they sold
their PC division to Lenovo, IBM was excellent to dell with. Of course
those were the days when Dell support was also quality. I have no idea
how well Lenovo is doing. For those who don't care about they money
(or having to switch between OS products0, Apple is producing
exceptional quality product. I know two colleagues who are in the
software engineering field who made the choice to go with Mac Books
(even though they primary work on Windows). Using the latest Windows-
on-Mac solutions they are able to do everything they want and seem
very very happy with their choice (Apple support and product quality
is consistently rated the highest by the likes of Consumer Reports, et
al. for whatever that is worth).

Regarding HP. No doubt their are customers out there who feel the same
way I do about Dell towards HP. They seemed to have followed the same
path (out of competition, neither will take the high road). The
problem with Dell and HP going down this path is that once the word is
out there that their quality is gone (and based on my experiences I
believe it is) then their brand becomes greatly devalued. After that
point, good luck to them trying to compete with the Asian manufactures
who offer better prices and (probably) better support at this point.

Perhaps Gateway (who I could write much negative about as well) is on
the right path. They don't try to hide that they use Asian factories
to build their retail products cheap, but if you call their support
you're taken care of promptly and it's from someone who speaks English
clearly and can relate to your from not only language stand point, but
also culturally. The later is of course greatly overlooked, but very
important to the human element of support.

My new strategy is one forced upon me. Buy at retail and buy based on
the best deal you can and budget in repairs and replacement within 2-3
years. If I needed to order a large batch of systems with a specific
configuration then I would need to turn to on on-line direct vendor,
but it would not be Dell. I would say the quality of their support was
at least 50% of what made them stand out. With that completely negated
now and I would even go so far as to say my time on the phone with
them (which was consistent on three occasions) was the worst support
experience I've had in recent memory. I'm typically on the phone with
tech support from some company 3-4 times any given month so it's hard
for me to grasp just how far Dell has fallen when several years ago I
would have rated them one my best support experiences.

RMZ wrote:
> On Dec 24, 6:07 pm, Ben Myers <ben_my...@charter.net> wrote:
>> RMZ wrote:
>>> In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
>>> that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
>>> most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
>>> buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
>>> available by this direct PC maker company.
>>> In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
>>> the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
>>> and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were a step
>>> ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
>>> have changed.
>>> Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
>>> Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
>>> within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
>>> problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
>>> the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
>>> exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
>>> hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
>>> room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
>>> rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
>>> Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
>>> support, the experience I won't soon forget
>>> I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
>>> call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
>>> transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
>>> this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
>>> returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
>>> with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
>>> call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
>>> up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
>>> support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)
>>> The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
>>> and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
>>> times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
>>> something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
>>> could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
>>> are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
>>> get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
>>> choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
>>> impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
>>> for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
>>> in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
>>> dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
>>> happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
>>> day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
>>> restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
>>> to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
>>> as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
>>> immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
>>> there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
>>> some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
>>> removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
>>> three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
>>> happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.
>>> Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.
>>> Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
>>> Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
>>> and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
>>> like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
>>> terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
>>> changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
>>> of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
>>> to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
>>> product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
>>> competitive.
>>> Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
>>> become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
>>> etc...) that's all bullshit. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
>>> unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
>>> their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
>>> directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
>>> along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
>>> to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
>>> Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
>>> American companies.
>>> Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
>>> path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
>>> purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
>>> been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
>>> rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
>>> do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.
>>> If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
>>> or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
>>> computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
>>> was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
>>> dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
>>> Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
>>> choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
>>> solutions.
>>> Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.
>> Good luck with whatever brand of computer you buy. Today, I picked up a
>> 6-month old HP laptop for service. Crapped out completely. No warranty
>> either. And just try to get an HP repaired under warranty, unless you
>> are a business account. What else have we got in name-brand desktops?
>> Acer-eGateMachines. Sony. Not much else. More brands of laptops,
>> though. Well, try to get spare parts for a Sony anything, a Toshiba
>> laptop, a Fujitsu laptop. Check out the tech support available on the
>> mfr's web site BEFORE you buy.
>>
>> I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
>> industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
>> break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
>> cars for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak after
>> 5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
>> Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.
>>
>> Finally, go build your own. Then you will have no one to blame for poor
>> quality except yourself... Ben Myers
>
> Ben you're right and that's why I titled it "Where does a former Dell
> customer go..." There really isn't an answer. I know before they sold
> their PC division to Lenovo, IBM was excellent to dell with. Of course
> those were the days when Dell support was also quality. I have no idea
> how well Lenovo is doing. For those who don't care about they money
> (or having to switch between OS products0, Apple is producing
> exceptional quality product. I know two colleagues who are in the
> software engineering field who made the choice to go with Mac Books
> (even though they primary work on Windows). Using the latest Windows-
> on-Mac solutions they are able to do everything they want and seem
> very very happy with their choice (Apple support and product quality
> is consistently rated the highest by the likes of Consumer Reports, et
> al. for whatever that is worth).
>
> Regarding HP. No doubt their are customers out there who feel the same
> way I do about Dell towards HP. They seemed to have followed the same
> path (out of competition, neither will take the high road). The
> problem with Dell and HP going down this path is that once the word is
> out there that their quality is gone (and based on my experiences I
> believe it is) then their brand becomes greatly devalued. After that
> point, good luck to them trying to compete with the Asian manufactures
> who offer better prices and (probably) better support at this point.
>
> Perhaps Gateway (who I could write much negative about as well) is on
> the right path. They don't try to hide that they use Asian factories
> to build their retail products cheap, but if you call their support
> you're taken care of promptly and it's from someone who speaks English
> clearly and can relate to your from not only language stand point, but
> also culturally. The later is of course greatly overlooked, but very
> important to the human element of support.
>
> My new strategy is one forced upon me. Buy at retail and buy based on
> the best deal you can and budget in repairs and replacement within 2-3
> years. If I needed to order a large batch of systems with a specific
> configuration then I would need to turn to on on-line direct vendor,
> but it would not be Dell. I would say the quality of their support was
> at least 50% of what made them stand out. With that completely negated
> now and I would even go so far as to say my time on the phone with
> them (which was consistent on three occasions) was the worst support
> experience I've had in recent memory. I'm typically on the phone with
> tech support from some company 3-4 times any given month so it's hard
> for me to grasp just how far Dell has fallen when several years ago I
> would have rated them one my best support experiences.
>

Lenovo laptops seem to be holding up in quality, at least the better
T-series and X-series. I have not had hands on with any others, and
Lenovo seems to be trying (but not succeeding) at selling in the
consumer space, something that IBM rejected 2-3 years before selling off
to Lenovo.

IBM's own desktop quality was excellent for its P3 systems. The Socket
423 P4 systems were a mixed bag of good quality (Asus) motherboard and a
cheap tinny case. Most of the Socket 478 boards were made for IBM by
MicroStar, well-known for exploding and oozing capacitors, so you know
how high in regard I hold Microstar.

Really! Build your own. Assembling a computer is easy, except for
mounting the stupidly designed Intel-branded LGA775 heat sink fan (so
you use another brand with screw mountings). You'll pay more but be
able to pick the parts you need, and get the quality and reliability you
expect. In addition to the Dell boxes I refurb and sell, or repair or
whatever, I build a few new systems for people, systems made from top
drawer components where it counts. As an added bonus, you'll be able to
pick and pay for the version of Windows that you want, not the one the
computer manufacturer wants you to have. If you want to continue
running XP, that is a major plus, albeit at a price. (Friends of Vista,
don't bash me for saying this.)

Last of all... The "retail" computer systems sold in most of the mass
market outlets are unimpressive piles of electronics, tin, plastic, and
screws. I don't care what brand it is. If the computer is sold retail,
it is really made cheaply because all the computer manufacturers can
afford to deal with the customer on a one-off basis and tell the
customer to go screw himself, or maybe screw him with very high repair
costs and essentially useless warranties. In short, I am tarring and
feathering ALL the stuff you see at Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart,
Staples, Office Max, Office Depot. I walked through each of their
stores after the Black Friday rush had settled down around 6pm, and saw
nothing very good except maybe for the most expensive desktops. I would
not hit a dog in the ass with any of the laptops I saw. Moral? Buy a
business-class computer, e.g. from Dell's small business sales or
equivalent elsewhere... Ben Myers

Hi!

> I know before they sold their PC division to Lenovo, IBM was excellent
> to dell with.

When I called technical support for a bad battery replacement on a Lenovo
3000 N100 laptop, I got IBM on the line. It came as something of a surprise.
I spoke to someone in the southern US, and the problem was taken care of
right away.

I would be remiss not to mention that somehow the defective battery never
made it back to them, or got lost in the shuffle somewhere. It took some
effort on my part to convince them that I really had returned the battery as
they asked and that I should not be charged for it.

> Of course those were the days when Dell support was also quality.

Buy from the small business store. It really does help, and so far as I
know, that still holds true today.

> Apple is producing exceptional quality product.

In some ways. I like their hardware and I hate it at the same time. I carry
a black Macbook running in a dual boot configuration with me when it's
needed on service calls, and it has held up very well since I bought it in
late 2006.

On the other hand, Apple Computer's products are why I own such an extensive
set of precision tools. You'll need one--and steady hands--if you decide to
work on an Apple product (especially a laptop) yourself.

> Apple support

....is great until your computer is under its hardware warranty but has
passed beyond its complimentary support period. I ran into that wall when I
found the restore discs shipped with my Mac mini were bad. I *knew* that was
the only problem, and yet I had to put up with crap from Apple technical
support all the way, including one statement that basically amounted to an
accusation of my "stealing" from them by not wanting to pay their $40 charge
when I didn't need to have the problem diagnosed.

I did eventually get discs from Apple, but that was much later and only
after I'd decided that my life was too short for that kind of crap and had
an independent Apple dealer burn me a set of replacements...something they
neither profited from nor charged for!

(Yeah, I know. I'm just one person and the above is something of a rant.)

> Regarding HP.

HP has already gone down the path of poor quality in my book. I've seen what
they've done with their home and business lines, and I don't like it. I see
more of them with hardware failures than I do anything else. A late model
HP-Compaq Deskpro crossed my path some time ago and the "HP engineering"
inside it was sloppy...they slapped a generic motherboard into a small form
factor case, slapped an "HP engineering" logo over the real motherboard
model, arranged the cooling so poorly that the system had several fans, and
ignored all the slots on the motherboard and put a riser card into one of
them to make it fit the case.

Compared to the much nicer Compaq Deskpro EN and Evo D500/510 systems, that
thing was a piece of junk. Its power supply finally went bang and put it out
of its misery.

I don't think Dell has crossed that point quite yet, but they have become a
lot cheaper and more generic in recent times.

> Perhaps Gateway (who I could write much negative about as well) is
> on the right path. They don't try to hide that they use Asian factories
> to build their retail products cheap

I don't see a lot of Gateway equipment cross my path. What I do find out
there are older machines that are still in use, or some newer machines that
seem to be more eMachines at heart than Gateway. All of them have more
software than hardware issues.

I don't have anything against eMachines, other than possibly use of cheap
Bestec power supplies. I was skeptical at first, but I have both new and old
ones that keep on going strong with only minimal maintenace needs.

> you're taken care of promptly and it's from someone who speaks
> English clearly and can relate to your from not only language stand
> point, but also culturally.

That is true, to the best of my knowledge. At one point, Gateway was making
a point of that as a distinguishing factor in a very crowded marketplace.

> The later is of course greatly overlooked, but very important to
> the human element of support.

I'm not sure I agree.

> My new strategy is one forced upon me.

Ever thought of building one yourself? If you can handle a screwdriver and
have some common sense, you can do it. I've come back to building some of my
own PCs in recent times, after shying away from doing so from the point of
transition where baby AT boards gave way to the first ATX boards.

William

I agree!

Dell was the stimulus for me to build my first box. For me, no tech support
is better than unsatisfactory tech support, because there are no unmet
expectations.


"Ben Myers" <> wrote in message
news:giuism$fng$...
> RMZ wrote:
>> In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
>> that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
>> most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
>> buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
>> available by this direct PC maker company.
>>
>> In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
>> the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
>> and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were a step
>> ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
>> have changed.
>>
>> Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
>> Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
>> within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
>> problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
>> the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
>> exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
>> hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
>> room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
>> rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
>> Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
>> support, the experience I won't soon forget
>>
>> I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
>> call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
>> transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
>> this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
>> returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
>> with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
>> call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
>> up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
>> support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)
>>
>> The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
>> and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
>> times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
>> something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
>> could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
>> are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
>> get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
>> choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
>> impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
>> for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
>> in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
>> dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
>> happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
>> day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
>> restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
>> to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
>> as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
>> immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
>> there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
>> some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
>> removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
>> three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
>> happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.
>>
>> Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.
>>
>> Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
>> Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
>> and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
>> like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
>> terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
>> changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
>> of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
>> to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
>> product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
>> competitive.
>>
>> Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
>> become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
>> etc...) that's all bullshit. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
>> unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
>> their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
>> directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
>> along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
>> to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
>> Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
>> American companies.
>>
>> Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
>> path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
>> purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
>> been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
>> rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
>> do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.
>>
>> If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
>> or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
>> computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
>> was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
>> dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
>> Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
>> choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
>> solutions.
>>
>> Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.
>
> Good luck with whatever brand of computer you buy. Today, I picked up a
> 6-month old HP laptop for service. Crapped out completely. No warranty
> either. And just try to get an HP repaired under warranty, unless you are
> a business account. What else have we got in name-brand desktops?
> Acer-eGateMachines. Sony. Not much else. More brands of laptops,
> though. Well, try to get spare parts for a Sony anything, a Toshiba
> laptop, a Fujitsu laptop. Check out the tech support available on the
> mfr's web site BEFORE you buy.
>
> I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
> industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
> break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with cars
> for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak after 5
> years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business. Computers
> seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.
>
> Finally, go build your own. Then you will have no one to blame for poor
> quality except yourself... Ben Myers

Ben Myers wrote:

> Finally, go build your own. Then you will have no one to blame for poor
> quality except yourself... Ben Myers

I'll second that...it's really not all that hard to do and you'll have
the satisfaction of knowing that you did it.

Bob

Ben Myers wrote:

> Last of all... The "retail" computer systems sold in most of the mass
> market outlets are unimpressive piles of electronics, tin, plastic, and
> screws. I don't care what brand it is. If the computer is sold retail,
> it is really made cheaply because all the computer manufacturers can
> afford to deal with the customer on a one-off basis and tell the
> customer to go screw himself, or maybe screw him with very high repair
> costs and essentially useless warranties. In short, I am tarring and
> feathering ALL the stuff you see at Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart,
> Staples, Office Max, Office Depot. I walked through each of their
> stores after the Black Friday rush had settled down around 6pm, and saw
> nothing very good except maybe for the most expensive desktops. I would
> not hit a dog in the ass with any of the laptops I saw. Moral? Buy a
> business-class computer, e.g. from Dell's small business sales or
> equivalent elsewhere... Ben Myers


All true which is why I'll never buy another desktop computer. Start
with an Antec case and you're already lightyears ahead of anything you
can buy pre-built.

Bob

Bob Levine wrote:
> Ben Myers wrote:
>
>> Last of all... The "retail" computer systems sold in most of the mass
>> market outlets are unimpressive piles of electronics, tin, plastic,
>> and screws. I don't care what brand it is. If the computer is sold
>> retail, it is really made cheaply because all the computer
>> manufacturers can afford to deal with the customer on a one-off basis
>> and tell the customer to go screw himself, or maybe screw him with
>> very high repair costs and essentially useless warranties. In short,
>> I am tarring and feathering ALL the stuff you see at Best Buy, Circuit
>> City, Walmart, Staples, Office Max, Office Depot. I walked through
>> each of their stores after the Black Friday rush had settled down
>> around 6pm, and saw nothing very good except maybe for the most
>> expensive desktops. I would not hit a dog in the ass with any of the
>> laptops I saw. Moral? Buy a business-class computer, e.g. from
>> Dell's small business sales or equivalent elsewhere... Ben Myers
>
>
> All true which is why I'll never buy another desktop computer. Start
> with an Antec case and you're already lightyears ahead of anything you
> can buy pre-built.
>
> Bob

Foxconn makes pretty good cases of the inexpensive variety, ~$50
wholesale. Not nearly as nice, but durable, and no sharp metal edges to
slice and dice fingers... Ben Myers

In news:giuism$fng$,
Ben Myers typed on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:07:48 -0500:
> I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
> industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
> break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
> cars for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak
> after 5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
> Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.

What era are you talking about? I have a '98 Dodge Ram 1500 which I bought
new. I never did anything to it except front brakes, two tires, and change
the oil every 6,000 miles. Still operates like the day that I got it.

I also have good luck with my two Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) and five Asus
EeePC ('08 era). These Asus are really rugged too. You can drop them over
and over again and they just keep working and working. I like the 7 inch
models since the LCD screens are also well protected on the sides. And the
lid hinges are the sturdiest I have ever seen. So I believe there are still
great American automobiles and computer models out there to find.

--
Bill
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux