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sawney beane
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      07-04-2006, 05:12 AM
Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> My fonts menu in Appleworks has approximately 200 items. It's hard even
>> to control scrolling in a menu that long. I asked how to remove items
>> from that menu. I was told to get a font manager.
>>
>> If it were up to me, I'd get by on ten fonts.

>
> Ah. I understand.
>
> Sit back, grab a mug of tea, and let me explain...
>
> As you know , there are four locations (three if you don't have
> classic, and more than four if you have a network server, but leave
> that alone for the purposes of this lecture) where you will possibly
> have fonts installed on your Mac.
>
> Well, if you run any Adobe software there are even more, but never mind.
>
> Apple, in its infinite wisdom, installs far more fonts than anyone
> needs. And if you load Office, or any Adobe app, you get even more
> fonts. So your font menu grows, and grows, and grows.


Yes, I tried Office. I hesitated, but it has an uninstall utility. I
wonder if it left its fonts.

>
> "Dammit!" you say. "I don't WANT all these farking balsted fonts! I'll
> just delete the sumbitses!"
>
> And then you discover that your install of OS X goes insane, because
> you've deleted a required font.
>
> There are only a few fonts that you MUST have installed in OS X, but
> you MUST have them installed.
>
> My list is as follows. Others have shorter lists, but this ones servers
> me well, being responsible for fonts and font management at a newspaper
> and magazine publishing company...
>
> /System/Library/Fonts/
> Apple LiGothic Medium.dfont
> AppleGothic.dfont
> AquaKanaBold.otf
> AquaKanaRegular.otf
> Geneva.dfont
> Helvetica.dfont
> Keyboard.dfont
> LastResort.dfont
> LucidaGrande.dfont
> Monaco.dfont
> Symbol.dfont
> Times.dfont
> ZapfDingbats.dfont
>
> /Library/Fonts/
> HelveticaNeue.dfont
> Times New Roman
>
> ~/Library/Fonts/ (User home directory)
> Empty of all fonts
>
> /System Folder/Fonts/ (If Classic is loaded)
> Empty of all fonts
>
> Any other fonts can be moved into another folder, anywhere on your
> system, and will be deactivated by doing so (after logging out, or
> rebooting).
>
> Using a font manager like LFE, you can create sets of fonts, and load
> either individual fonts or sets of fonts on demand. Think of it as an
> easier way of moving fonts ot the default folders if it helps.
>
> So, you can move all the fonts that are not required to your
> FontsRemovedFromSystem folder. Then, you drag that folder into the LFE
> window.
>
> LFE now "knows" about those fonts, but they are not active in your
> system.
>
> When you need a font that you've moved to your FontsRemovedFromSystem
> folder, you can simply launch LFE and activate it. If you quit LFE,
> though, the font will be deactivated. You need LFE running as a font
> manager if you want to change your active fonts on the fly.
>
> If you add LFE to your Startup Items, you can add fonts to it from any
> folder, and activate/deactivate them at will. As well, if you open a
> document that uses an inactive font that LFE knows about, it can
> automatically make that font active for you.
>
> Is that clear as mud?
>
> Feel free to ask me to elucidate on anything I haven't been clear about.


If I run Classic with no fonts in its System Folder, can it find fonts?

If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
would I salvage the situation?

Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts? For the ones that aren't novelties,
I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
Within those categories, they all look similar to me.
 
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sawney beane
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      07-04-2006, 05:20 AM
TaliesinSoft wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:38:48 -0500, sawney beane wrote (in article
> <(E-Mail Removed)>):
>
>
> As mentioned above, using Font Book, a disabled font will not appear in the
> font menu of an application. If one needs to use a particular font one can
> enable (activate) it individually or enable (activate) a collection in which
> it is included.
>
> As an aside, Font Book includes additional useful features such as being able
> to identify and discard faulty fonts and, as mentioned in my original posting
> in this thread, to cluster all of the various files constituting a family
> into a single folder containing all of those files.
>
> I find Font Book to be an exceedingly useful utility, one that blends well
> into the file structure of the Mac. Not to be forgotten is that it is free!
>


Thanks. I see that if I open Font Book I'll find information with the
Help Reader.
 
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sawney beane
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      07-04-2006, 06:03 AM
Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
>> would I salvage the situation?

>
> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
>
> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
> won't help you recover.


Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
condescending and insulting?
>
>> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?

>
> I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
> years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
> have multiples of our library.
>
>> For the ones that aren't novelties,
>> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
>> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.

>
> Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
> typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
> viewpoint.
>

You bragged about how many fonts you handle. You invited me to ask
questions. Because I don't know the answer to the question I asked, you
tell me I don't understand and have a limited viewpoint. Are you sure
you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?
 
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Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu
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      07-04-2006, 08:13 AM
sawney beane <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
> condescending and insulting?
> >
> >> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?

> >
> > I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
> > years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
> > have multiples of our library.
> >
> >> For the ones that aren't novelties,
> >> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
> >> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.

> >
> > Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
> > typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
> > viewpoint.
> >

> You bragged about how many fonts you handle.


I don't think he bragged. He simply stated the fact that he has 4,000
fonts, most of which he probably actually needs, even though *you* may
only need a few. In fact, he stated that other companies have far
more fonts than he has. Doesn't sound like bragging, just the facts.

> You invited me to ask questions. Because I don't know the answer to
> the question I asked, you tell me I don't understand and have a
> limited viewpoint.


Yup, he was very kind and helpful in inviting you to ask. Although
you only see the need for a few fonts, clearly some places need more
than a few. It's not a problem that you don't need more or even if
you don't understand why others do. That's your limited viewpoint --
you just haven't seen those other places.

> Are you sure you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?


Looks to me like he was trying to provide some useful information
(which I personally appreciate!), though you didn't even bother to say
thanks. Perhaps there's a language difference here. Anyway, there's
really no point in insulting people here (or feeling insulted) if
you're here to gain information. Just ask for information, or share
information, and we all gain.

Martin
 
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sawney beane
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      07-04-2006, 05:38 PM
Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
>>>> would I salvage the situation?
>>> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
>>> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
>>> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
>>>
>>> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
>>> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
>>> won't help you recover.

>> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
>> condescending and insulting?

>
> Turn of a phrase. I was not being insulting or condescending.


You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.
It would have been foolish to use your list without knowing how to
recover. You invented a scenario where I would delete fonts you said
were necessary, then come whining to you.

>
>>>> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?
>>> I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
>>> years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
>>> have multiples of our library.
>>>
>>>> For the ones that aren't novelties,
>>>> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
>>>> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.
>>> Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
>>> typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
>>> viewpoint.
>>>

>> You bragged about how many fonts you handle.

>
> No, I stated a fact that was intended to demonstrate that I have some
> experience in font management.


Did you think if you didn't brag I would assume you did not have some
experience?

>
>> You invited me to ask
>> questions.

>
> Yes, I did. I was sincere in assisting you understand font management
> as you had demonstrated you did not.
>
>> Because I don't know the answer to the question I asked, you
>> tell me I don't understand and have a limited viewpoint.

>
> No, I said that because you made a stupid comment about fonts that
> demonstrated you indeed do not understand, and in fact do have a
> limited viewpoint.
>
>> Are you sure you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?

>
> Positive. However, given your attitude I may start.


I said regular fonts within a category looked similar to me. Instead of
answering my question, you call it a stupid comment, and you insist you
aren't being condescending or insulting.
>
> Look, I went through considerable effort to explain font management
> under OS X to you, without you expressing any appreciation whatsoever.
> I'm done with that now. Delete whatever fonts you want, move them
> between folders, refuse to grasp elementary concepts, argue with
> people, get insulted... I no longer care and will no longer expend any
> energy assisting you.


You're right, I haven't thanked you. I've been too busy on wild goose
chases rereading documentation and trying to make sense of your "That's
for me to know and you to find out," answers.

I'm grateful that James Ryan took the trouble to respond. Don't you
think he made a great case for Font Book?
 
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TaliesinSoft
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      07-04-2006, 06:07 PM
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:38:57 -0500, sawney beane wrote
(in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):

> I'm grateful that James Ryan took the trouble to respond. Don't you think he


> made a great case for Font Book?


I appreciate the complement.

One thing to take into mind is that while Font Book is, at least in my mind,
a great tool for managing one's own font collection, it has no facilities
that I am aware of for sharing a font collection amongst multiple users.
That's where such as Linotype Font Explorer (have I got that right?) shines!

--
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... (E-Mail Removed)

 
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TaliesinSoft
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      07-04-2006, 07:05 PM
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:15:58 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote
(in article <040720061215584224%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone. ca>):

> In article <(E-Mail Removed) m>,
> TaliesinSoft <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> That's where such as Linotype Font Explorer (have I got that right?) shines!

>
> No, LFE is single user.
>
> We use Suitcase Server to manage font sets among about 20 users.


Thanks for the correction. Somehow I had it in my mind that LFE was also
multi-user.

--
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... (E-Mail Removed)

 
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sawney beane
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-04-2006, 08:52 PM
Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.
>> It would have been foolish to use your list without knowing how to
>> recover. You invented a scenario where I would delete fonts you said
>> were necessary, then come whining to you.

>
> I think you need some serious work on your reading and comprehension
> skills.
>
> I gave you a list of fonts NOT to delete.
>
> And now, I'm entirely done with you.


How would an omission from a list of fonts disable a computer unless it
was a list of necessary fonts?

Congratulations, I see you have been trolling me. I wonder if I'm the
only one you fooled.
 
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J.J. O'Shea
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      07-04-2006, 08:58 PM
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:38:57 -0400, sawney beane wrote
(in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):

> Dave Balderstone wrote:
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
>>>>> would I salvage the situation?
>>>> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
>>>> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
>>>> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
>>>>
>>>> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
>>>> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
>>>> won't help you recover.
>>> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
>>> condescending and insulting?

>>
>> Turn of a phrase. I was not being insulting or condescending.

>
> You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.


He was correct.

A really good way to find out would be to remove, say, Helvetica.dfont.
LucidaGrande.dfont, or Keyboard.dfont from the /System/Library/Fonts folder.

> It would have been foolish to use your list without knowing how to
> recover.


He said to leave 'em be, and gave specific examples. I'd go further and say
that users should never, ever, add or subtract any font from the
/System/Library/Fonts folder. There are some you can get away with moving,
but there are others which will cause your Mac to die a miserable death if
removed.

> You invented a scenario where I would delete fonts you said
> were necessary, then come whining to you.


Oh, my. To repeat: he said to leave 'em alone. Let's make it clear:

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES MESS WITH THE FONTS INSIDE THE
/SYSTEM/LIBARY/FONTS FOLDER. Do not touch. Leave 'em be. Clear now?

>
>>
>>>>> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?
>>>> I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
>>>> years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
>>>> have multiples of our library.
>>>>
>>>>> For the ones that aren't novelties,
>>>>> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
>>>>> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.
>>>> Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
>>>> typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
>>>> viewpoint.
>>>>
>>> You bragged about how many fonts you handle.


2,000 fonts ain't much. I've got about 5,000 myself, and I used to have more.
(I _do_ have more at the office...) I only have a few hundred loaded at any
one time, but all 5k are available if I want/need them.

>>
>> No, I stated a fact that was intended to demonstrate that I have some
>> experience in font management.

>
> Did you think if you didn't brag I would assume you did not have some
> experience?


Damn, boy, he was trying to help you. And he gave you good, basic, advice.

>
>>
>>> You invited me to ask
>>> questions.

>>
>> Yes, I did. I was sincere in assisting you understand font management
>> as you had demonstrated you did not.
>>
>>> Because I don't know the answer to the question I asked, you
>>> tell me I don't understand and have a limited viewpoint.

>>
>> No, I said that because you made a stupid comment about fonts that
>> demonstrated you indeed do not understand, and in fact do have a
>> limited viewpoint.
>>
>>> Are you sure you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?

>>
>> Positive. However, given your attitude I may start.

>
> I said regular fonts within a category looked similar to me. Instead of
> answering my question, you call it a stupid comment, and you insist you
> aren't being condescending or insulting.


You don't understand font management if you really think there's little or no
difference between Optima, Futura, Helvetica, (any of the Helveticas, there
are a lot of them...) and Monaco. They're all sans-serif fonts, after all.
And Courier, Times, Caslon, Bookman, and Palatino are all serif fonts. (Hint:
there's a monospace serif and a monospace sans-serif font mixed in there,
guess which ones...) Things are rather more complex than you think, and he
was trying to point you in the correct direction.

>>
>> Look, I went through considerable effort to explain font management
>> under OS X to you, without you expressing any appreciation whatsoever.
>> I'm done with that now. Delete whatever fonts you want, move them
>> between folders, refuse to grasp elementary concepts, argue with
>> people, get insulted... I no longer care and will no longer expend any
>> energy assisting you.

>
> You're right, I haven't thanked you. I've been too busy on wild goose
> chases rereading documentation and trying to make sense of your "That's
> for me to know and you to find out," answers.


Sigh. Look there's four main places to find fonts in OS X:

1 System/Library/Fonts. System fonts live here. Do not touch.

2 Library/Fonts. Fonts which can be seen by all OS X users live here. Put
fonts there if you don't have a font managing application and you want all
users to see the font.

3 System Folder/Fonts. Classic fonts live here. Put fonts here if you want
users to be able to see them when they're running Classic. Any fonts placed
here will also be visible to any user running a regular OS X app. Note that
fonts in Library/Fonts will NOT be visible to Classic users. Nor will fonts
from System/Library/Fonts be visible to Classic users.

4 username/Library/Fonts. Fonts placed here will be visible to just that
user.

Some applications, particularly apps from Adobe and Microsoft, have their own
private font folders.

If you use a font manager other than Apple's Font Book, that font manager
will usually have a single centralized place where it stores fonts. You may
take fonts out of the Library/Fonts folder (except for anything with
'Helvetica' or 'Times' in its name for reasons which make sense to Apple) and
from the username/Library/Fonts folder and from the various private font
folders used by some apps and put them in the centralized folder for the font
manager to handle. The font manager will autolaunch them if they're needed,
and also will automatically unload them when the app is quit. (If you've set
things that way, of course.)

>
> I'm grateful that James Ryan took the trouble to respond. Don't you
> think he made a great case for Font Book?


Font Book is perfectly adequate if you have a few dozen or a few score fonts.
It falls down badly when you have a lot of fonts. It should handle your
situation quite well. It'd go belly-up at the number of fonts I have, and as
it doesn't autolaunch (or at least it didn't the last time I tried it) it's
not really designed for the way I, or many people who must deal with large
numbers of fonts, work.

I use Suitcase at work, and Linotype Font Explorer at home. Personally, I
find Font Explorer to be much easier to work with than Font Book. I've seen
it suggested that Apple scrap Font Book and replace it with Font Explorer,
and I'd say that this would be a good idea.

--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

 
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Andre G. Isaak
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      07-04-2006, 11:58 PM
In article <(E-Mail Removed) ia.net>,
J.J. O'Shea <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:38:57 -0400, sawney beane wrote
> (in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):
>
> > Dave Balderstone wrote:
> >> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
> >> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dave Balderstone wrote:
> >>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, sawney beane
> >>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
> >>>>> would I salvage the situation?
> >>>> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
> >>>> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
> >>>> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
> >>>>
> >>>> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
> >>>> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
> >>>> won't help you recover.
> >>> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
> >>> condescending and insulting?
> >>
> >> Turn of a phrase. I was not being insulting or condescending.

> >
> > You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.

>
> He was correct.
>
> A really good way to find out would be to remove, say, Helvetica.dfont.
> LucidaGrande.dfont, or Keyboard.dfont from the /System/Library/Fonts folder.


Out of curiousity, does anyone know why this is the case?

In classic, you could remove all fonts from the system and things would
continue to function (provided that the term 'function' is not taken to
hold any aesthetic component given that everything would show up in the
ROM version of Chicago).

Under OS X, I can certainly understand why it is necessary to have at
least one font with a reasonable character repetoire installed, but I am
unclear on why the system requires that this be a *specific* font -- in
the case of Helvetica this is particularly irksome given that one
frequently requires a specific foundry's version to be installed, and
swapping system fonts around can be annoying.

Given that the system is already designed to look for alternatives in
cases where a particular glyph is missing from a selected font, what are
the programmatic advantages of designing an OS such that particular
fonts must be present to function properly?

Mostly just curious,

Andre

--
n.b. there are no monotremes in my email address
 
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