HELP NEEDED: Crashing B&W PowerMac running OS X 10.3.9

I recently acquired a second B&W PowerMac (350MHz, 384MB RAM) and set it
up with a fresh install of System 10.3.9, but have been frustrated, as
it seems to randomly crash.

These crashes seem primarily to be of the 'freezing' variety; in other
words, the screen looks fine, but the mouse pointer no longer responds,
and I am unable to 'force quit' my way out of the problem. Sometimes it
happens when the machine is waking up from sleep, but not always.
Usually, I use the key combo to 'force quit' and the menu will come up,
but will be unresponsive. I hit 'return' (since the mouse pointer isn't
moving), but nothing happens. Eventually, I have to use the reset
button. Then everything seems fine until the next crash (usually within
a few hours or possibly a day).

What makes this all the more frustrating is that I have another B&W
PowerMac (400Mhz, 256MB RAM) right next to it, running 10.3.9 flawlessly
- no crashes, no problems.

At this point, both machines have almost no applications on them, other
than what is included in System 10.3.9. They are being used primarily as
web browsing stations, using Firefox 1.5.0.4, and occasionally for
iTunes (6.0.4). Firmware in both machines is confirmed up to date.

So... anyone got an idea what the problem might be, and what I should
try first with respect to a fix? I've wondered in the RAM could be the
problem, but I'm not terribly technical, so other than swapping the RAM
in the two machines, I'm not really sure how I'd check that. I did
re-seat the RAM in the problem machine, but to no avail.

I used Doktorkleanor 10.3 (the long fix seems to do those typical
maintenance tasks). I reset the PRAM. I'm open to the advice of the many
wiser heads in this newsgroup.

Thanks for your help.

Mike Rosenberg <> wrote:

> Preacher <> wrote:
>
> > So... anyone got an idea what the problem might be, and what I should
> > try first with respect to a fix? I've wondered in the RAM could be the
> > problem, but I'm not terribly technical, so other than swapping the RAM
> > in the two machines, I'm not really sure how I'd check that. I did
> > re-seat the RAM in the problem machine, but to no avail.
>
> The types of problems you've described could be, and often are, caused
> by bad RAM, and since you have the two machines, swapping RAM would be
> the easiest way to test this. Swap the RAM and see if that also shifts
> the problem to the other Mac.

I swapped the RAM as suggested, but unfortunately, the problem remains
with the original machine. It's strange. The machine seems to function
normally fo hours, then freezes.

Any other theories as to what might be going on?

in article 220620061504526668%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.c a, Dave
Balderstone at dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca wrote on 23/6/06 7:04 AM:

> In article <1hhcf54.r8ipmy1lfsr61N%>, Preacher
> <> wrote:
>
>> Mike Rosenberg <> wrote:
>>
>>> Preacher <> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So... anyone got an idea what the problem might be, and what I should
>>>> try first with respect to a fix? I've wondered in the RAM could be the
>>>> problem, but I'm not terribly technical, so other than swapping the RAM
>>>> in the two machines, I'm not really sure how I'd check that. I did
>>>> re-seat the RAM in the problem machine, but to no avail.
>>>
>>> The types of problems you've described could be, and often are, caused
>>> by bad RAM, and since you have the two machines, swapping RAM would be
>>> the easiest way to test this. Swap the RAM and see if that also shifts
>>> the problem to the other Mac.
>>
>> I swapped the RAM as suggested, but unfortunately, the problem remains
>> with the original machine. It's strange. The machine seems to function
>> normally fo hours, then freezes.
>>
>> Any other theories as to what might be going on?
>
> Heat?
Video card?

Preacher <> wrote:

> wapping the RAM
> in the two machines, I'm not really sure how I'd check that.
pull all out.
You have 4 slots, don't you?
You need at least 128MB to get X to work.
If possible put in just one module back (depending on the sizes you
have).
If no bad results appear: add another
If the malfunction reappears: try _another slot_ with the same,
then as a next stepp another RAM-module

The bad thing about RAM testing is you never know if a slot is down or a
module, so there are quite a lot of theoretically needed positions and
combinations to check. At least 4 checks (one per slot) for each module
until you find a functioning combination.

Not to forget (and easier to check):
Another possible source for your crashes might be a control unit such as
mouse. Do you use USB or ADB for this? We had configurations here
(several!) where a broken USB mouse cable crashed the USB when
shortening the bus, looked quite similiar to what you describe and
seemed very much voodoo style until we found a special position of the
cable near the mouse was causing it.

Greetings Frank

Nigel <> wrote:

> in article 220620061504526668%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.c a, Dave
> Balderstone at dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca wrote on 23/6/06 7:04 AM:
>
> > In article <1hhcf54.r8ipmy1lfsr61N%>, Preacher
> > <> wrote:
> >
> >> Mike Rosenberg <> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Preacher <> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> So... anyone got an idea what the problem might be, and what I should
> >>>> try first with respect to a fix? I've wondered in the RAM could be the
> >>>> problem, but I'm not terribly technical, so other than swapping the RAM
> >>>> in the two machines, I'm not really sure how I'd check that. I did
> >>>> re-seat the RAM in the problem machine, but to no avail.
> >>>
> >>> The types of problems you've described could be, and often are, caused
> >>> by bad RAM, and since you have the two machines, swapping RAM would be
> >>> the easiest way to test this. Swap the RAM and see if that also shifts
> >>> the problem to the other Mac.
> >>
> >> I swapped the RAM as suggested, but unfortunately, the problem remains
> >> with the original machine. It's strange. The machine seems to function
> >> normally fo hours, then freezes.
> >>
> >> Any other theories as to what might be going on?
> >
> > Heat?
> Video card?

It's been a couple of months since I posted about this. I tried
everything I could think of and couldn't stop the random crashes.
Finally, I turned off the 'sleep' option, and the crashes stopped. The
monitor still shuts off, and I think the hard drive may even sleep, so
I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'm happy that things run
consistently.

A couple of last questions about this situation:

- What IS the difference? Why does the computer appear to sleep if it's
not really sleeping?

- And why does this clear up the problem? Is this an OS or hardware
issue?

Preacher <> wrote:

> Nigel <> wrote:
>
> > in article 220620061504526668%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.c a, Dave
> > Balderstone at dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca wrote on 23/6/06 7:04 AM:
> >
> > > In article <1hhcf54.r8ipmy1lfsr61N%>, Preacher
> > > <> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Mike Rosenberg <> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Preacher <> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> So... anyone got an idea what the problem might be, and what I should
> > >>>> try first with respect to a fix? I've wondered in the RAM could be the
> > >>>> problem, but I'm not terribly technical, so other than swapping the RAM
> > >>>> in the two machines, I'm not really sure how I'd check that. I did
> > >>>> re-seat the RAM in the problem machine, but to no avail.
> > >>>
> > >>> The types of problems you've described could be, and often are, caused
> > >>> by bad RAM, and since you have the two machines, swapping RAM would be
> > >>> the easiest way to test this. Swap the RAM and see if that also shifts
> > >>> the problem to the other Mac.
> > >>
> > >> I swapped the RAM as suggested, but unfortunately, the problem remains
> > >> with the original machine. It's strange. The machine seems to function
> > >> normally fo hours, then freezes.
> > >>
> > >> Any other theories as to what might be going on?
> > >
> > > Heat?
> > Video card?
>
> It's been a couple of months since I posted about this. I tried
> everything I could think of and couldn't stop the random crashes.
> Finally, I turned off the 'sleep' option, and the crashes stopped. The
> monitor still shuts off, and I think the hard drive may even sleep, so
> I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'm happy that things run
> consistently.
>
> A couple of last questions about this situation:
>
> - What IS the difference? Why does the computer appear to sleep if it's
> not really sleeping?
>
> - And why does this clear up the problem? Is this an OS or hardware
> issue?

Probably didn't see your original thread, nor would I have come up with
your solution. However, found sleep mode to be iffy at best on my old
G3/450, and disabled it fairly soon whenever I'd re-discover that it had
been turned on again for me (I think a fresh install and/or some upgrade
or other would do that). And never really liked spinning down my
disks...

Always went with a shutdown for that machine, as occaisional crashes
without using sleep tended to be less occaisional when sleep was used.