OT: SCSI Expert Needed

Barry Watzman wrote:
> All of my 2940's are 50-pin cards (the 2940 family includes both narrow
> and wide devices).
>
> However, the issue is not with respect to 2940's, since I'm looking for
> a PCI Express adapter (and, ideally, one that is under $50).
>
> But I'm curious about your comment: "The 50-pin device cannot terminate
> the cable."
>
> My plan was to use a 68 to 50 pin adapter at the back of the SCSI card,
> or, alternatively, a 68 to 50 pin cable. The scanner has internal
> termination (which can be turned on or off) and is the only device on
> the SCSI chain. Are you saying that won't work? Since, at that point,
> I'm already down to a 50-pin connector, how does the chain get terminated?
>
> [note, FWIW, as a practical matter these scanners usually work fine even
> if there is no termination at all (again, they are the only device on
> the chain, and they are, by SCSI standards, low-speed devices)]
>
>
> Donald White wrote:
>> I used to use many 2940 adapters. To connect 50-pin SCSI devices to
>> the 68 conductor cable I used Meritec 980211-1F1-3F0 adapters. The
>> 50-pin device cannot terminate the cable. I used a separate 68-pin
>> active terminator for that.
>>
>> http://meritec.thomasnet.com/item/co...1-3f0?&seo=110
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps, but I may have misunderstood your requirements.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>> Barry Watzman wrote:

There are SCSI termination rules out there. This article implies the
external type adapter (applied in-line in mid chain), has terminations
in it. And the internal version, goes between the ribbon cable and a disk
drive, and has no termination (as it just adjusts the connector type
at the "stub" to the drive). But what it implies, may not actually
be present (or documented for that matter), in the actual stuff
you can buy. I've always had to ask a lot of questions before buying
stuff like that.

http://www.scsita.org/aboutscsi/SCSI...utorial.html#3

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support...it_devices.htm

It's been a long time since I worked with my Wide to Narrow adapter.
I think there may have been a Sun wide auto-terminating disk drive in front
of my 68 to 50 adapter, and it may have terminated the upper lanes, leaving the
lower lane to be terminated further along the bus. But I actually
had a working external SCSI chain, which had wide drives closest to the
computer, and an older narrow (Shoebox) at the end of the chain. And
I managed to get it to work (the Sun OS didn't downshift the transfer rate
while the system was running).

The problem is, before buying these adapters, you never get to find out
what circuitry is included inside. Whether there is an active terminator
on the upper lane or not. So I believe it can be done, I just haven't
done any new SCSI setups in the last ten years or so. For the adapter
I own, I've have to get out the ohmmeter and try and determine whether
anything is hanging on the upper lane or not, of the adapter.

My home SCSI use, is the occasional wide single SCSI drive. (Back when
disks were smaller, I used to have four SCSI drives to get enough space.)
I use a 2906 for my SCSI scanner, the one with a 25 pin connector on it.
And a 25 pin to Centronics 50 pin cable, with an inline terminator
at the end. Basically, any time I do any SCSI stuff, I have to
"learn it all over again".

Paul

I won't claim to be an expert but I do have an LS-2000 connected to a 68 pin
Adaptec SCSI card.

As long as the scanner is the only item on the SCSI chain, any 68pin to 50HD
pin cable or adapter will work (I currently do this with with a cable, but
have also done so with an adapter).

On the other hand, if you're mixing wide and narrow devices, the issue is
more difficult (and tests my memory). The key is that there are two types
of 68pin to 50pin adapters -- one with the high-bit terminated in the
adapter and one without such termination. This comes into play only when
mixing wide and narrow devices on the SCSI chain, including internal and
external devices. If the internal devices are wide devices and all the
external devices are narrow, some SCSI cards can be set to terminate the
high-bit for the external devices and any external adapter/cable can be
used. If not, an adapter with high-bit termination is required. If there
are both wide and narrow external devices, the wide devices must be placed
closer on the chain to the SCSI card and a means of terminating the high bit
(the appropriate adapter) must be placed in the chain before the first
narrow device. If there are no wide devices either internally or externally
there should be no problems using just a 68-50 cable (no high-bit
termination) or either type of 68-50 adapter. (Of course, if you have
multiple devices keep in mind the overall length of the SCSI chain -- in my
exprerience it is more critical with a wide SCSI card.)

By the way, there are issues (which I can't remember just now) with running
the LS-2000's Nikonscan software in Vista or Windows 7, but it is
possible -- I'm running mine with Windows 7 RC at the moment.

Hope this helps.

gb




"Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
news:haompp$8d7$...
> Ok, being an "expert" is relative (an expert is anyone who knows more than
> you do). And usually I am the SCSI expert. But now I need some help from
> an expert's expert.
>
> I need to use a Nikon LS-2000 SCSI scanner on a PC that has only
> PCI-Express slots.
>
> The only PCI-Express cards that I can find have "wide SCSI" (68-pin)
> external ports. But the LS-2000 is an "old" SCSI device, 50-pin SCSI-II
> interface (HD50F socket).
>
> First question, anyone know of an inexpensive PCI Express SCSI card? The
> only one I've seen at all is an Adaptec $200 card.
>
> Second quesiton, even that card has only the 68-pin interface, how do I
> connect a "narrow" SCSI device? Can I?
>
> Thanks

Thanks, that was helpful. I did not realize that some wide to narrow
converters terminated the high bits without terminating the low order bits.


gb wrote:
> I won't claim to be an expert but I do have an LS-2000 connected to a 68 pin
> Adaptec SCSI card.
>
> As long as the scanner is the only item on the SCSI chain, any 68pin to 50HD
> pin cable or adapter will work (I currently do this with with a cable, but
> have also done so with an adapter).
>
> On the other hand, if you're mixing wide and narrow devices, the issue is
> more difficult (and tests my memory). The key is that there are two types
> of 68pin to 50pin adapters -- one with the high-bit terminated in the
> adapter and one without such termination. This comes into play only when
> mixing wide and narrow devices on the SCSI chain, including internal and
> external devices. If the internal devices are wide devices and all the
> external devices are narrow, some SCSI cards can be set to terminate the
> high-bit for the external devices and any external adapter/cable can be
> used. If not, an adapter with high-bit termination is required. If there
> are both wide and narrow external devices, the wide devices must be placed
> closer on the chain to the SCSI card and a means of terminating the high bit
> (the appropriate adapter) must be placed in the chain before the first
> narrow device. If there are no wide devices either internally or externally
> there should be no problems using just a 68-50 cable (no high-bit
> termination) or either type of 68-50 adapter. (Of course, if you have
> multiple devices keep in mind the overall length of the SCSI chain -- in my
> exprerience it is more critical with a wide SCSI card.)
>
> By the way, there are issues (which I can't remember just now) with running
> the LS-2000's Nikonscan software in Vista or Windows 7, but it is
> possible -- I'm running mine with Windows 7 RC at the moment.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> gb
>

"terminated the high bits without terminating the low order bits"

A wide to narrow would not be terminating both high and low since that would
block the signal passing thru to the narrow "side" of the adapter and on to
the narrow device. Like you, when I got my first wide-ultrawide card I
wouldn't have thought there were more than one type of wide-to-narrow
adapter. After all, if the high bits aren't terminated any wide devices
will see an unterminated chain. But, after researching Adaptec's adapters
on its website at the time, I found that there were indeed two types -- and
the one I needed was considerably more expensive than the other (of course).



"Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
news:hardee$r4r$...
> Thanks, that was helpful. I did not realize that some wide to narrow
> converters terminated the high bits without terminating the low order
> bits.
>
>
> gb wrote:
>> I won't claim to be an expert but I do have an LS-2000 connected to a 68
>> pin Adaptec SCSI card.
>>
>> As long as the scanner is the only item on the SCSI chain, any 68pin to
>> 50HD pin cable or adapter will work (I currently do this with with a
>> cable, but have also done so with an adapter).
>>
>> On the other hand, if you're mixing wide and narrow devices, the issue is
>> more difficult (and tests my memory). The key is that there are two
>> types of 68pin to 50pin adapters -- one with the high-bit terminated in
>> the adapter and one without such termination. This comes into play only
>> when mixing wide and narrow devices on the SCSI chain, including internal
>> and external devices. If the internal devices are wide devices and all
>> the external devices are narrow, some SCSI cards can be set to terminate
>> the high-bit for the external devices and any external adapter/cable can
>> be used. If not, an adapter with high-bit termination is required. If
>> there are both wide and narrow external devices, the wide devices must be
>> placed closer on the chain to the SCSI card and a means of terminating
>> the high bit (the appropriate adapter) must be placed in the chain before
>> the first narrow device. If there are no wide devices either internally
>> or externally there should be no problems using just a 68-50 cable (no
>> high-bit termination) or either type of 68-50 adapter. (Of course, if
>> you have multiple devices keep in mind the overall length of the SCSI
>> chain -- in my exprerience it is more critical with a wide SCSI card.)
>>
>> By the way, there are issues (which I can't remember just now) with
>> running the LS-2000's Nikonscan software in Vista or Windows 7, but it is
>> possible -- I'm running mine with Windows 7 RC at the moment.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> gb
>>

Barry Watzman wrote:
> Ok, being an "expert" is relative (an expert is anyone who knows more
> than you do). And usually I am the SCSI expert. But now I need some
> help from an expert's expert.
>
> I need to use a Nikon LS-2000 SCSI scanner on a PC that has only
> PCI-Express slots.
>
> The only PCI-Express cards that I can find have "wide SCSI" (68-pin)
> external ports. But the LS-2000 is an "old" SCSI device, 50-pin SCSI-II
> interface (HD50F socket).
>
> First question, anyone know of an inexpensive PCI Express SCSI card? The
> only one I've seen at all is an Adaptec $200 card.
>
> Second quesiton, even that card has only the 68-pin interface, how do I
> connect a "narrow" SCSI device? Can I?
>
> Thanks

Here is another option. This card is a PCI Express x1 to PCI adapter.

http://www.beaglesoft.com/pcie2pci.htm

The price is $140, so that doesn't allow saving any money on buying a
real PCI Express SCSI card. But at least it is another way to get the
job done. If there was any demand for such a product, and a higher
volume, you might see a thing like that for $20+.

Paul

I am not the individual you spoke with, but I have used an LS-2000
successfully on Vista, and I know about as much about them as anyone
since I service and sell them in moderately large quantity (a few hundred).

Everyone's experience seems to be different. My two attempts were
successful and straightforward, but some of my customers have been
unable to get it to work.

My first comment, you have to use 32-bit Vista (or, presumably, Win 7
(which I have not tried yet)). I don't think that there is any hope for
64-bit using Nikon Scan, although it may work with VueScan.

You have to use a SCSI card with Vista Drivers. I've had good luck with
Adaptec 2940 series cards.

I had no particular problems installing either ASPI (version 4.71a2) or
Nikon Scan. Use "compatibility mode", of course, for both the installer
and the program itself (after it's installed). And use "run as
administrator", again, for both the installation and the program. With
those steps, I had no problems, it worked right off. On a laptop, use
an Adaptec 1480 series PC card. For laptops with Express Card rather
than PC Card slots, Newegg has an adapter (made by rosewill) that lets
you plug a Cardbus PC Card (1480) into an ExpressCard slot (note that
the 1460 is not Cardbus and will not work).

You mention that you are using 64-bit Win7, and I think that dooms you.
It's possible that it might work under Virtual XP Mode but I doubt it,
since I think that at the lowest level, the drivers would still have to
be 64-bit, and no 64-bit drivers for these scanners (or, in some cases,
the SCSI cards) exist.


spiked wrote:
> gb;1116514 Wrote:
>> By the way, there are issues (which I can't remember just now) with
>> running
>> the LS-2000's Nikonscan software in Vista or Windows 7, but it is
>> possible -- I'm running mine with Windows 7 RC at the moment.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> gb
>
> Just curious as to what your config is for LS2000 on Win7 (are you
> running 32-bit or 64-bit Win7)?
>
> I couldn't find drivers that would work with either of my Adaptec SCSI
> cards on 64-bit Win7 (and/or had trouble installing ASPI on it IIRC).
>
> spiked
>
>

In article <>, Luigi <> wrote:
>
>A'm in a similar boat here... I have a trusty HP ScanJet 4C with a 2906
>Adaptec scsi. I bought a PCI-E to PCI adapter for about 50 bucks
>(canadian):
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yhgudkj
>
>It worked and I was able to mount the PCI card on it, but sadly,
>Windows 7 will say there are no drivers available.
>
>Researching on the Adaptec site I found that they won't bother making
>Windows 7 drivers for this and a ton of other cards:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yevya5m
>
>
>So... if anybody here knows of any other brand of card with pci-e and a
>25-pin female scsi that will work in Windows 7 please holler....
>
>Thanks!
>
>
You can download the driver for VISTA for the 2906 and use it with Windows 7

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support...2900/AVA-2906/

I am not aware of any inexpensive PCI Express SCSI card. But most
motherboards still have at least one PCI slot.

Instead of the 2906, try a 2940 series card (I prefer the 2940AU, but
the straight 2940 should work also; avoid the "wide" variants of this
card (with the 68-pin SCSI interface). Vista drivers for the 2940
exist, although possibly only for 32-bit Vista. You can buy 2940 series
cards on E-Bay for $5 to $10. Again, avoid the "wide" variants.

One other option that might work (maybe): Ratoc makes SCSI to {Firewire
and USB) adapters. They work on the Nikon LS-30 and LS-2000 scanners if
you use VueScan software (they do not work with the Nikon Scan
software). They are not cheap, and as far as I know, no other "SCSI to
{whatever}" converters work at all.

I don't know if the 2940 will work with Windows 7 or not. I would have
thought that the Vista 32-bit driver would probably work with Windows 7
32-bit, but that was just speculation on my part.

We definitely need an inexpensive PCI Express SCSI card.



Luigi wrote:
> A'm in a similar boat here... I have a trusty HP ScanJet 4C with a 2906
> Adaptec scsi. I bought a PCI-E to PCI adapter for about 50 bucks
> (canadian):
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yhgudkj
>
> It worked and I was able to mount the PCI card on it, but sadly,
> Windows 7 will say there are no drivers available.
>
> Researching on the Adaptec site I found that they won't bother making
> Windows 7 drivers for this and a ton of other cards:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yevya5m
>
>
> So... if anybody here knows of any other brand of card with pci-e and a
> 25-pin female scsi that will work in Windows 7 please holler....
>
> Thanks!
>
>

I believe that the driver is 32-bit only. I don't think that a 64-bit
driver exists.

Luigi wrote:
> Already tried that. I have Windows 7 64bit and it won't let me.
> I right-click on the .inf file and click Install from the context menu
> and I get:
>
> The INF file does not support this method of installation.
>
> I'm I missing something?
>
> Thanks!
>
>>
> You can download the driver for VISTA for the 2906 and use it with
> Windows 7
>
> http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support...2900/AVA-2906/
>
>[/color]

In article <>, Luigi <> wrote:
>
>Already tried that. I have Windows 7 64bit and it won't let me.
>I right-click on the .inf file and click Install from the context menu
>and I get:
>
>The INF file does not support this method of installation.
>
>I'm I missing something?
>
>Thanks!
>
>>
>>
>You can download the driver for VISTA for the 2906 and use it with
>Windows 7
>
>http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/support...2900/AVA-2906/
>
>[/color]
OOps, sorry, it will only work for 32bit Vista and 7