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P5Q Deluxe External USB/1394 Port Question

 
 
me@here.com
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      05-05-2011, 08:33 PM
I have installed ports with two usb each to the blue headers on the mobo.
One header has a red connector for the 1394 port. Am I better off not to
connect to large drives to these connectors or does it matter? Should one
drive be connected to one header and one to the other? Just wondering what
would be the ideal way of doing it. Any difference in reliblity or
performance? Thanks for the help.

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Paul
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      05-05-2011, 11:06 PM
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I have installed ports with two usb each to the blue headers on the mobo.
> One header has a red connector for the 1394 port. Am I better off not to
> connect to large drives to these connectors or does it matter? Should one
> drive be connected to one header and one to the other? Just wondering what
> would be the ideal way of doing it. Any difference in reliblity or
> performance? Thanks for the help.
>


In terms of hard drives, 3.5" drives tend to be powered from an AC
power source. The startup current can be as high as 12V @ 2.5A, which
is difficult to source directly from the computer itself.

2.5" drives have lower power requirements. They may draw 5V @ 1A
during spinup, or as low as 5V @ 500mA. In some cases, the manufacturer
chooses not to state this transient current requirement, to the annoyance
of their customers.

Each USB 2x5 header, has a Polyfuse next to it. The Polyfuse is for
safety (it's not a "current flow policeman"), and cuts the power to
the header, in the event enough current is drawn to damage the pins.
The Polyfuse might have "1.1" stamped on it on older motherboards,
to give some idea what current could be drawn from a USB "stack of two".
If only one USB load was connected, it might be able to draw 1.1 amps
for a very short time, without the automatic fuse opening.

USB officially support bus powering up to 5V @ 500mA. On some 2.5" USB
drives, that is sufficient power to spin up the drive. Some USB 2.5"
drives come with a "Y" cable, or with two USB cables, one with a barrel
connector on the end. Those are powering schemes, that "steal" power from
two USB ports. Since one fuse powers both connectors in a USB stack,
the stealing doesn't help that much with an Asus motherboard. It's already
being generous with the power. You would need to connect the "dual cable"
to one connector on USB78 and one connector on USB910, to really
start stealing a lot of power.

"USB78"
+5VSB ----- 1.1 Amp fuse -----+------x port <------------ Max power to
| +--- greedy 2.5"
+------x port | bus powered
| device
"USB910" |
+5VSB ----- 1.1 Amp fuse -----+------x port <--------+
|
+------x port


Firewire supports bus powering as well. Firewire has some kind of current
limit, that the pins are rated for. Generally, it isn't recommended to
run 3.5" drives from Firewire bus power, but it's been done. Some
Apple compatible products, used the "capacitor bank" approach to
storing up enough Firewire Vbus to spin up a 3.5" hard drive. If
you're smart, you'd buy a Firewire enclosure with its own AC (wall)
power source, to avoid doing that.

Firewire should have no problem providing power for a 2.5" drive.
In that case, no adapter would be needed, and no "jumping thru hoops"
is required. It's the 3.5" drive that needs more power. A Firewire
enclosure with a 2.5" drive inside, converts VBus (+12V or higher)
into +5V internally, via a switching regulator.

You will likely find a Polyfuse next to the IE1394_2 header on your
motherboard, and by reading the value off the top of that fuse,
you'll get some idea what safe limit Asus sets on providing
Firewire bus power. Firewire bus power usually involves the use
of diodes, to prevent "backflow" of bus power (something at
least a few USB implementations apparently lack, and I've read
a few reports of USB hubs that violate the rules on backflow).

IBM PC implementations of Firewire, derive bus power from the +12V rail.
The Firewire spec, allows higher voltages to be used, but normal power
supplies don't have such a rail. Apple has built some products, with
an additional higher voltage output, which they might use to be able to
provide more V*I=watts to a Firewire electrical load. But when a Firewire
peripheral is used on an IBM PC, about all they can rely on is +12V.

1) If connecting a 2.5" drive to the computer, connect one drive per
USB stack. If you connect two 2.5" USB drives to the same USB pair,
one or both might not "appear" in the OS. It means they failed to
spin up.

2) If connecting a 2.5" drive to USB78 or USB910 headers, connect one
drive per 2x5. If you connect two 2.5" drives to USB78 for example,
the combined spinup current may open the Polyfuse.

3) If using the "dual cable to USB 2.5" drive" approach, to solve a powering
problem, run one USB connector to USB78, and one USB connector to USB910.
That will maximize the available power, and hopefully avoid any issues
with the Polyfuses. Wiring a "dual cable to drive" that way, could provide
up to 5V @ 2A to the USB drive. (Eventually, the ATX supply is the next
limitation to current flow, as the USB bus power now comes from +5VSB.)
Dual power cabling on 2.5" drives, is only really needed if you can't
get a response from the drive, or the drive craps out in the middle of
a transfer.

For 3.5" drives, normally they're powered from a wall adapter. In which
case, you can plug them in anywhere. My Firewire enclosure is AC powered
from the wall, so it presents no bus power loading. My 3.5" USB enclosure
is powered from an AC wall adapter as well.

It's only the 2.5" drives, that try to derive operating power from
the bus connection. And in cases where the electrical load is not
met, you simply "can't see the drive". Solving the powering issue,
makes the drive visible in your OS. A "Y cable" or "dual cable with
barrel connector for power" are intended to solve inadequate
bus powering situations for 2.5" drives. Very few 2.5" devices come
with their own wall adapter.

Paul
 
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me@here.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-06-2011, 02:08 AM
Thanks for the reply Paul,

Both 3.5 inch drives are in Thermaltake A2396 external cases. One drive is
a WD 800gb green drive and the other is a WD 1T Green Drive. It seems that
most of the time whhen I tuen them both on at the same time after the
system is booted, one or both may not show in explorer. I have an
assortment of USB cables and have tried every one and seems to make no
difference. I have both of the connected to the usb/1394 combo header
plugged into the blue and red connectors. I also have another two port usb
header plugged into the other blue connector and when I try it I get the
same results. Should both be plugged into the same one or should I plug
one into each one, or does it matter?

I seem to remember that if both blue connecotrs are used at the same time
it can cause a problem with another device on the board but cannot recall
what the symptoms are as it's been a long time. BTW, I have tried
plugging both drives into the ports on the back of the board with same
results. Does the drive need to be powered up before booting if I want to
connect one to the esata port? Both enclosures have a swirch for
usb/esata. Any help would be appreciated, thank you.






Paul <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > I have installed ports with two usb each to the blue headers on the
> > mobo. One header has a red connector for the 1394 port. Am I better off
> > not to connect to large drives to these connectors or does it matter?
> > Should one drive be connected to one header and one to the other? Just
> > wondering what would be the ideal way of doing it. Any difference in
> > reliblity or performance? Thanks for the help.
> >

>
> In terms of hard drives, 3.5" drives tend to be powered from an AC
> power source. The startup current can be as high as 12V @ 2.5A, which
> is difficult to source directly from the computer itself.
>
> 2.5" drives have lower power requirements. They may draw 5V @ 1A
> during spinup, or as low as 5V @ 500mA. In some cases, the manufacturer
> chooses not to state this transient current requirement, to the annoyance
> of their customers.
>
> Each USB 2x5 header, has a Polyfuse next to it. The Polyfuse is for
> safety (it's not a "current flow policeman"), and cuts the power to
> the header, in the event enough current is drawn to damage the pins.
> The Polyfuse might have "1.1" stamped on it on older motherboards,
> to give some idea what current could be drawn from a USB "stack of two".
> If only one USB load was connected, it might be able to draw 1.1 amps
> for a very short time, without the automatic fuse opening.
>
> USB officially support bus powering up to 5V @ 500mA. On some 2.5" USB
> drives, that is sufficient power to spin up the drive. Some USB 2.5"
> drives come with a "Y" cable, or with two USB cables, one with a barrel
> connector on the end. Those are powering schemes, that "steal" power from
> two USB ports. Since one fuse powers both connectors in a USB stack,
> the stealing doesn't help that much with an Asus motherboard. It's
> already being generous with the power. You would need to connect the
> "dual cable" to one connector on USB78 and one connector on USB910, to
> really start stealing a lot of power.
>
> "USB78"
> +5VSB ----- 1.1 Amp fuse -----+------x port <------------ Max power
> to
> | +--- greedy
> | 2.5"
> +------x port | bus
> powered
> | device
> "USB910" |
> +5VSB ----- 1.1 Amp fuse -----+------x port <--------+
> |
> +------x port
>
> Firewire supports bus powering as well. Firewire has some kind of current
> limit, that the pins are rated for. Generally, it isn't recommended to
> run 3.5" drives from Firewire bus power, but it's been done. Some
> Apple compatible products, used the "capacitor bank" approach to
> storing up enough Firewire Vbus to spin up a 3.5" hard drive. If
> you're smart, you'd buy a Firewire enclosure with its own AC (wall)
> power source, to avoid doing that.
>
> Firewire should have no problem providing power for a 2.5" drive.
> In that case, no adapter would be needed, and no "jumping thru hoops"
> is required. It's the 3.5" drive that needs more power. A Firewire
> enclosure with a 2.5" drive inside, converts VBus (+12V or higher)
> into +5V internally, via a switching regulator.
>
> You will likely find a Polyfuse next to the IE1394_2 header on your
> motherboard, and by reading the value off the top of that fuse,
> you'll get some idea what safe limit Asus sets on providing
> Firewire bus power. Firewire bus power usually involves the use
> of diodes, to prevent "backflow" of bus power (something at
> least a few USB implementations apparently lack, and I've read
> a few reports of USB hubs that violate the rules on backflow).
>
> IBM PC implementations of Firewire, derive bus power from the +12V rail.
> The Firewire spec, allows higher voltages to be used, but normal power
> supplies don't have such a rail. Apple has built some products, with
> an additional higher voltage output, which they might use to be able to
> provide more V*I=watts to a Firewire electrical load. But when a Firewire
> peripheral is used on an IBM PC, about all they can rely on is +12V.
>
> 1) If connecting a 2.5" drive to the computer, connect one drive per
> USB stack. If you connect two 2.5" USB drives to the same USB pair,
> one or both might not "appear" in the OS. It means they failed to
> spin up.
>
> 2) If connecting a 2.5" drive to USB78 or USB910 headers, connect one
> drive per 2x5. If you connect two 2.5" drives to USB78 for example,
> the combined spinup current may open the Polyfuse.
>
> 3) If using the "dual cable to USB 2.5" drive" approach, to solve a
> powering
> problem, run one USB connector to USB78, and one USB connector to
> USB910. That will maximize the available power, and hopefully avoid
> any issues with the Polyfuses. Wiring a "dual cable to drive" that
> way, could provide up to 5V @ 2A to the USB drive. (Eventually, the
> ATX supply is the next limitation to current flow, as the USB bus
> power now comes from +5VSB.) Dual power cabling on 2.5" drives, is
> only really needed if you can't get a response from the drive, or the
> drive craps out in the middle of a transfer.
>
> For 3.5" drives, normally they're powered from a wall adapter. In which
> case, you can plug them in anywhere. My Firewire enclosure is AC powered
> from the wall, so it presents no bus power loading. My 3.5" USB enclosure
> is powered from an AC wall adapter as well.
>
> It's only the 2.5" drives, that try to derive operating power from
> the bus connection. And in cases where the electrical load is not
> met, you simply "can't see the drive". Solving the powering issue,
> makes the drive visible in your OS. A "Y cable" or "dual cable with
> barrel connector for power" are intended to solve inadequate
> bus powering situations for 2.5" drives. Very few 2.5" devices come
> with their own wall adapter.
>
> Paul


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me@here.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-06-2011, 02:30 AM
I forgot to mention that I am not using the 1394 port on the external
header and could disable it in the bios if that matters any.




(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Thanks for the reply Paul,
>
> Both 3.5 inch drives are in Thermaltake A2396 external cases. One drive
> is a WD 800gb green drive and the other is a WD 1T Green Drive. It seems
> that most of the time whhen I tuen them both on at the same time after
> the system is booted, one or both may not show in explorer. I have an
> assortment of USB cables and have tried every one and seems to make no
> difference. I have both of the connected to the usb/1394 combo header
> plugged into the blue and red connectors. I also have another two port
> usb header plugged into the other blue connector and when I try it I get
> the same results. Should both be plugged into the same one or should I
> plug one into each one, or does it matter?
>
> I seem to remember that if both blue connecotrs are used at the same time
> it can cause a problem with another device on the board but cannot recall
> what the symptoms are as it's been a long time. BTW, I have tried
> plugging both drives into the ports on the back of the board with same
> results. Does the drive need to be powered up before booting if I want to
> connect one to the esata port? Both enclosures have a swirch for
> usb/esata. Any help would be appreciated, thank you.
>
> Paul <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > > I have installed ports with two usb each to the blue headers on the
> > > mobo. One header has a red connector for the 1394 port. Am I better
> > > off not to connect to large drives to these connectors or does it
> > > matter? Should one drive be connected to one header and one to the
> > > other? Just wondering what would be the ideal way of doing it. Any
> > > difference in reliblity or performance? Thanks for the help.
> > >

> >
> > In terms of hard drives, 3.5" drives tend to be powered from an AC
> > power source. The startup current can be as high as 12V @ 2.5A, which
> > is difficult to source directly from the computer itself.
> >
> > 2.5" drives have lower power requirements. They may draw 5V @ 1A
> > during spinup, or as low as 5V @ 500mA. In some cases, the manufacturer
> > chooses not to state this transient current requirement, to the
> > annoyance of their customers.
> >
> > Each USB 2x5 header, has a Polyfuse next to it. The Polyfuse is for
> > safety (it's not a "current flow policeman"), and cuts the power to
> > the header, in the event enough current is drawn to damage the pins.
> > The Polyfuse might have "1.1" stamped on it on older motherboards,
> > to give some idea what current could be drawn from a USB "stack of
> > two". If only one USB load was connected, it might be able to draw 1.1
> > amps for a very short time, without the automatic fuse opening.
> >
> > USB officially support bus powering up to 5V @ 500mA. On some 2.5" USB
> > drives, that is sufficient power to spin up the drive. Some USB 2.5"
> > drives come with a "Y" cable, or with two USB cables, one with a barrel
> > connector on the end. Those are powering schemes, that "steal" power
> > from two USB ports. Since one fuse powers both connectors in a USB
> > stack, the stealing doesn't help that much with an Asus motherboard.
> > It's already being generous with the power. You would need to connect
> > the "dual cable" to one connector on USB78 and one connector on USB910,
> > to really start stealing a lot of power.
> >
> > "USB78"
> > +5VSB ----- 1.1 Amp fuse -----+------x port <------------ Max
> > power to
> > | +--- greedy
> > | 2.5"
> > +------x port | bus
> > powered
> > | device
> > "USB910" |
> > +5VSB ----- 1.1 Amp fuse -----+------x port <--------+
> > |
> > +------x port
> >
> > Firewire supports bus powering as well. Firewire has some kind of
> > current limit, that the pins are rated for. Generally, it isn't
> > recommended to run 3.5" drives from Firewire bus power, but it's been
> > done. Some Apple compatible products, used the "capacitor bank"
> > approach to storing up enough Firewire Vbus to spin up a 3.5" hard
> > drive. If you're smart, you'd buy a Firewire enclosure with its own AC
> > (wall) power source, to avoid doing that.
> >
> > Firewire should have no problem providing power for a 2.5" drive.
> > In that case, no adapter would be needed, and no "jumping thru hoops"
> > is required. It's the 3.5" drive that needs more power. A Firewire
> > enclosure with a 2.5" drive inside, converts VBus (+12V or higher)
> > into +5V internally, via a switching regulator.
> >
> > You will likely find a Polyfuse next to the IE1394_2 header on your
> > motherboard, and by reading the value off the top of that fuse,
> > you'll get some idea what safe limit Asus sets on providing
> > Firewire bus power. Firewire bus power usually involves the use
> > of diodes, to prevent "backflow" of bus power (something at
> > least a few USB implementations apparently lack, and I've read
> > a few reports of USB hubs that violate the rules on backflow).
> >
> > IBM PC implementations of Firewire, derive bus power from the +12V
> > rail. The Firewire spec, allows higher voltages to be used, but normal
> > power supplies don't have such a rail. Apple has built some products,
> > with an additional higher voltage output, which they might use to be
> > able to provide more V*I=watts to a Firewire electrical load. But when
> > a Firewire peripheral is used on an IBM PC, about all they can rely on
> > is +12V.
> >
> > 1) If connecting a 2.5" drive to the computer, connect one drive per
> > USB stack. If you connect two 2.5" USB drives to the same USB pair,
> > one or both might not "appear" in the OS. It means they failed to
> > spin up.
> >
> > 2) If connecting a 2.5" drive to USB78 or USB910 headers, connect one
> > drive per 2x5. If you connect two 2.5" drives to USB78 for example,
> > the combined spinup current may open the Polyfuse.
> >
> > 3) If using the "dual cable to USB 2.5" drive" approach, to solve a
> > powering
> > problem, run one USB connector to USB78, and one USB connector to
> > USB910. That will maximize the available power, and hopefully avoid
> > any issues with the Polyfuses. Wiring a "dual cable to drive" that
> > way, could provide up to 5V @ 2A to the USB drive. (Eventually, the
> > ATX supply is the next limitation to current flow, as the USB bus
> > power now comes from +5VSB.) Dual power cabling on 2.5" drives, is
> > only really needed if you can't get a response from the drive, or
> > the drive craps out in the middle of a transfer.
> >
> > For 3.5" drives, normally they're powered from a wall adapter. In which
> > case, you can plug them in anywhere. My Firewire enclosure is AC
> > powered from the wall, so it presents no bus power loading. My 3.5" USB
> > enclosure is powered from an AC wall adapter as well.
> >
> > It's only the 2.5" drives, that try to derive operating power from
> > the bus connection. And in cases where the electrical load is not
> > met, you simply "can't see the drive". Solving the powering issue,
> > makes the drive visible in your OS. A "Y cable" or "dual cable with
> > barrel connector for power" are intended to solve inadequate
> > bus powering situations for 2.5" drives. Very few 2.5" devices come
> > with their own wall adapter.
> >
> > Paul


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Paul
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-06-2011, 03:20 AM
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Thanks for the reply Paul,
>
> Both 3.5 inch drives are in Thermaltake A2396 external cases. One drive is
> a WD 800gb green drive and the other is a WD 1T Green Drive. It seems that
> most of the time whhen I tuen them both on at the same time after the
> system is booted, one or both may not show in explorer. I have an
> assortment of USB cables and have tried every one and seems to make no
> difference. I have both of the connected to the usb/1394 combo header
> plugged into the blue and red connectors. I also have another two port usb
> header plugged into the other blue connector and when I try it I get the
> same results. Should both be plugged into the same one or should I plug
> one into each one, or does it matter?
>
> I seem to remember that if both blue connecotrs are used at the same time
> it can cause a problem with another device on the board but cannot recall
> what the symptoms are as it's been a long time. BTW, I have tried
> plugging both drives into the ports on the back of the board with same
> results. Does the drive need to be powered up before booting if I want to
> connect one to the esata port? Both enclosures have a swirch for
> usb/esata. Any help would be appreciated, thank you.
>


In the picture of your product on Newegg, I see an AC adapter is provided.
And that is where the majority of power for the drive will be coming from.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/17-145-027-Z05?$S640W$

The reviews in the "Feedback" column, note a few issues. Those issues
might be power related. One problem with a lot of electronics these
days, is cheap adapters. That's why reviewing the Feedback postings
is so important - to spot substandard components.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817145027

"Died after approximately 8 months of use. It appears to be a problem with
the power connector/power supply. The drive repeatedly spins up and down
when connected to the enclosure."

Perhaps viewing any LEDs on the unit, would give some indication of whether
it has a power problem (flickering, blinking, etc).

*******

You can see the green Polyfuses, next to the blue 2x5 headers on the motherboard
(to the left of them in this picture).

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-131-297-S03?$S640W$

The six black colored USB connectors in this picture, should have a Polyfuse
per two connectors. And those Polyfuses should be relatively near the stacks,
on the motherboard.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-131-297-S02?$S640W$

*******

I see your 2x5 USB to slot adapter, in this picture. When you connect the
blue connector on this adapter, are you able to test each USB connector
individually ? Can you connect a USB flash stick and test each port, of
the two ports on the slot adapter ?

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-131-297-S05?$S640W$

And once you pass that test, can you connect *two* USB flash sticks ? Are
both visible ? This would be a test case, of a device that cannot cause
any "power backfeed" type issues.

If you can pass that test, then perhaps the Thermaltake A2396 is pumping
power backwards, into the PC, via the USB bus power... That's about
all I can think of.

I've heard of cases, where you can only connect *one* of a product,
or there will be trouble. But I thought that was a particular NAS
box that did that. With USB, you'd think if each had a unique serial
number, or no serial number at all, you could connect multiple of them.

You might also consider using something like UVCView, or even Device Manager,
to see if both of them are present or not. UVCView would show you
whether the VID/PID config data is available to the computer or not.
If both of them reported exactly the same information, perhaps Windows
Plug and Play has a problem with it, and then the second one can't appear
in Device Manager. In which case, you'd want to use UVCView to verify.

UVCView and UVCView2 are Microsoft programs, which they've removed for
easy download. There are ways to get it - a recipe for getting the
latest one is here.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...9?dmode=source

Basically, you'd be looking for proof, that the front end of each
ThermalTake adapter, can be seen. There would be two items, with the
same idVendor (VID) and idProduct (PID).

http://www.die.de/blog/content/binary/usbview.png

Paul
 
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