Re: mac ergo keyboard

In article <fc5jq2fcdzcc$.1u5ibrzxbnx6a$.>,
salgud <> wrote:

> Does anyone else like an ergo (bent) keyboard on the Mac platform? I had
> one some time ago, but it got damaged and I can't find a replacement. It
> was an Adesso, worked very well. A little fragile maybe (broke from being
> dropped on my hardwood floor), but it worked well before that. I am a
> terribly typist, but type a little less terribly on an ergo keyboard. I
> just found out from our "ergo expert" here at work that this is a common
> problem for guys my size (tall, wide through the shoulders) and that a
> regular keyboard makes me pinch my elbows in awkardly ao I can't type. Not
> sure all that's true, just know an ergo keyboard feels much better. This is
> part of the reason I HATE the chiclet keyboard that came with my iMac
> aluminum. The whole keyboard is very cramped for me, like when my kids were
> little and I went in for parent teacher night and had to sit in second
> grade chairs! Does anyone know if there is another ergo keyboard for the
> Mac? I'm not considering some of the really elaborate $100 and up ones -
> too expensive.
>
> I know that some of the M$ keyboards are Mac compatible, but I tried one
> and it was only partly compatible (some of the "special" keys didn't work
> and couldn't be remapped).
>
> If I could find another Adesso ergo keyboard or a different one entirely,
> that would be great.
>
> Oh, yes, I should mention, I did find a couple of places selling Adesso Mac
> ergo keyboards online, but they had either no rating or a terrible rating
> at reselleratings.com, so I'm avoiding them.
>
> Thanks.

I also hate the current version of the Mac keyboard. I use the Matias
Tactilepro keyboard ($149+shipping). They also have a folding keyboard
for laptop use.

http://www.matias.ca/tactilepro/

I'm pretty messy around my keyboard and gunked up the works of one in
less than a year, so I got a keyboard skin for $15 and it works great:

http://www.keyskincover.com/

Not ergonomic, but definitely feels better than the newer chicklet
keyboards.

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:16:07 -0500, Michael Vilain wrote (in article
<vilain->):

> I also hate the current version of the Mac keyboard. I use the Matias
> Tactilepro keyboard ($149+shipping). They also have a folding keyboard
> for laptop use.

I find it interesting that keyboard tastes can be so different. absolutely
love the Apple aluminum keyboards as they are quiet and have great tactile
feedback. Nothing annoys me more than keyboards that go clackety clackety
clack clack clack as yo type. And then there are those so-called "ergonomic"
keyboards that force one to place their hands in an improper typing
position--topic for another discussion.

--
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....

In article < ET>,
TaliesinSoft <> wrote:

> I find it interesting that keyboard tastes can be so different. absolutely
> love the Apple aluminum keyboards as they are quiet and have great tactile
> feedback. Nothing annoys me more than keyboards that go clackety clackety
> clack clack clack as yo type. And then there are those so-called "ergonomic"
> keyboards that force one to place their hands in an improper typing
> position--topic for another discussion.

I am curious as to whether you look at the keys at all when you type.

In many ways I do like the "aluminum" (it is strange aluminum that
attracts a magnet) keyboard. I find that it is too difficult to stay
centered on the keys. The keys are too large and flat. Except for the f
and k keys which have small pips on them, I cannot tell that I am
drifting off center until I hit the edge. Before that happens, my big
fingers end up hitting an adjacent key as well. It seems that I recenter
best when I use the f or k key to guide me. That is an annoying
operation.

There really was an advantage to the old typewriter keys that had about
half the area of a Apple keyboard key. You knew when you were drifting
off b before getting superfluous characters.

Bill

--
Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

In article < ET>,
TaliesinSoft <> wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:16:07 -0500, Michael Vilain wrote (in article
> <vilain->):
>
> > I also hate the current version of the Mac keyboard. I use the Matias
> > Tactilepro keyboard ($149+shipping). They also have a folding keyboard
> > for laptop use.
>
> I find it interesting that keyboard tastes can be so different. absolutely
> love the Apple aluminum keyboards as they are quiet and have great tactile
> feedback. Nothing annoys me more than keyboards that go clackety clackety
> clack clack clack as yo type. And then there are those so-called "ergonomic"
> keyboards that force one to place their hands in an improper typing
> position--topic for another discussion.

Unless it's an age thing (I'm 54 and used the VT100 most of my computing
career until I did Sun work in the mid-1990's). I still want tactile
feedback on keys. Apple's keyboards aren't very good for the shoulder
girdle as they're rather narrow. The space between the keys is to small
IMO. Not as bad as PC laptops, but I wouldn't spend more than a couple
minutes typing at one before I'd get pain in my rhomboids and traps. I
learned to type on a manual keyboard (which I still have) and want
feedback when I touch type. If you don't touch type, maybe it's
different.

And, _yes_ I am a professional about such things. I currently earn my
living fixing people's structure and posture instead of computers.

For the most part, I tell people with constant shoulder issues to
reevaluate various things in their life (along with the structural work
I do on their tissues):

- the way they work with computers--keyboard, chair, desk, and setup (is
the monitor at eye level or do you have to look up or down, where is the
keyboard, ditch the chair's arms, etc.),

- sleeping on their sides with a pillow that doesn't support their neck
being in anatomically neutral

- long commutes where the arms are at 10+2 and the head forward

Yes, keyboard preference is personal. But the pain many people have
while being clueless about why is where I get repeat business. I recall
an instructor commenting on all the snowboarders on the slopes when he
went skiing recently. He called them "future clients".

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
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On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:15:38 -0500, Salmon Egg wrote (in article
<SalmonEgg->):

[responding to my comments on the Apple aluminum keyboard]

> I am curious as to whether you look at the keys at all when you type.

No, I do not look at they keys when I type. I also hold my hands when typing
much the way a person does when playing a piano. My whole hands move about
while I type. I'm somewhat boggled when I see people typing with their hands
flat and their wrists positioned on a wrist rest, a position that, at least
to me, is one that impedes good typing.

> In many ways I do like the "aluminum" (it is strange aluminum that
> attracts a magnet) keyboard. I find that it is too difficult to stay
> centered on the keys. The keys are too large and flat. Except for the f
> and k keys which have small pips on them, I cannot tell that I am drifting
> off center until I hit the edge. Before that happens, my big fingers end
> up hitting an adjacent key as well. It seems that I recenter best when I
> use the f or k key to guide me. That is an annoying operation.

As for the aluminum keyboard, I find the tactile feedback quite good, albeit
it is strictly feedback by feel and not sound.

As for the "guiding" keys, they are f and j, not f and k. Perhaps that is
part of your problem. :-)

> There really was an advantage to the old typewriter keys that had about
> half the area of a Apple keyboard key. You knew when you were drifting off
> b before getting superfluous characters.

As for the area of the keytops on the aluminum keyboard they are only very
slightly larger in area than other keyboards I have compared the aluminum
keyboard to.

> Bill

--
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:06:47 -0500, Michael Vilain wrote (in article
<vilain->):

[responding to my commenting on the Apple aluminum keyboard]

> Unless it's an age thing (I'm 54 and used the VT100 most of my computing
> career until I did Sun work in the mid-1990's). I still want tactile
> feedback on keys. Apple's keyboards aren't very good for the shoulder
> girdle as they're rather narrow. The space between the keys is to small
> IMO. Not as bad as PC laptops, but I wouldn't spend more than a couple
> minutes typing at one before I'd get pain in my rhomboids and traps. I
> learned to type on a manual keyboard (which I still have) and want
> feedback when I touch type. If you don't touch type, maybe it's different.

I am a quite good touch typist and have been since I took typing in high
school in 1949. I have no problem using the aluminum keyboard and the size of
the keytops and the spacing between the keys doesn't pose a problem for me. I
have not experienced any pain when typing, regardless of the keyboard I am
using. I do sit quite upright while typing with my back not positioned on the
back of the chair. I also have my hands positioned over the keyboard and not
laying flat on such as a wrist rest. My fingers point virtually straight down
into the keys and my hands do move about as I type.

--
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:06:47 -0500, Michael Vilain wrote (in article
<vilain->):

> Apple's keyboards aren't very good for the shoulder girdle as they're
> rather narrow. The space between the keys is to small IMO.

Out of curiosity I measured the spacing of the keys on my Apple aluminum
keyboards. The keys themselves are 5/8 inches square and spaced 1/8 inch
apart horizontally and a slight bit less vertically.

Following that I made a trip to the local Office Depot and did like
measurements on a number of keyboards from H-P, Acer, Logitech, and
Microsoft. The sizes of the keytops varied slightly but the spacing of the
keys was the same on all of the keyboards I measured. That is there would be
a 3 inch span from the left edges of five adjacent keys when measured
horizontally and slightly tighter when measured vertically. That is the
distance from the left edge of the A key to the left edge of the G key would
be 3 inches and the distance from the top edge of the 6 key to the top edge
of the Space Bar would be something like 2 15/16 inches.


--
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....

In article < ET>,
TaliesinSoft <> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:06:47 -0500, Michael Vilain wrote (in article
> <vilain->):
>
> [responding to my commenting on the Apple aluminum keyboard]
>
> > Unless it's an age thing (I'm 54 and used the VT100 most of my computing
> > career until I did Sun work in the mid-1990's). I still want tactile
> > feedback on keys. Apple's keyboards aren't very good for the shoulder
> > girdle as they're rather narrow. The space between the keys is to small
> > IMO. Not as bad as PC laptops, but I wouldn't spend more than a couple
> > minutes typing at one before I'd get pain in my rhomboids and traps. I
> > learned to type on a manual keyboard (which I still have) and want
> > feedback when I touch type. If you don't touch type, maybe it's different.
>
> I am a quite good touch typist and have been since I took typing in high
> school in 1949. I have no problem using the aluminum keyboard and the size of
> the keytops and the spacing between the keys doesn't pose a problem for me. I
> have not experienced any pain when typing, regardless of the keyboard I am
> using. I do sit quite upright while typing with my back not positioned on the
> back of the chair. I also have my hands positioned over the keyboard and not
> laying flat on such as a wrist rest. My fingers point virtually straight down
> into the keys and my hands do move about as I type.

Yep. You're doing it right because you learned it right. Not my
experience with 90% of the people I see in Silicon Valley. Then of
course, they were born in the early to mid-1980's or so. I learned to
touch type in 1968.

And yes, that 3" can make a difference if someone is unbalanced. Ever
see a car wheel rotate when it's unbalanced?

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically by ignored]

In article <SalmonEgg->,
Salmon Egg <> wrote:

> In article < ET>,
> TaliesinSoft <> wrote:
>
> > I find it interesting that keyboard tastes can be so different. absolutely
> > love the Apple aluminum keyboards as they are quiet and have great tactile
> > feedback. Nothing annoys me more than keyboards that go clackety clackety
> > clack clack clack as yo type. And then there are those so-called
> > "ergonomic"
> > keyboards that force one to place their hands in an improper typing
> > position--topic for another discussion.
>
> I am curious as to whether you look at the keys at all when you type.
>
> In many ways I do like the "aluminum" (it is strange aluminum that
> attracts a magnet) keyboard. I find that it is too difficult to stay
> centered on the keys. The keys are too large and flat. Except for the f
> and k keys which have small pips on them, I cannot tell that I am
> drifting off center until I hit the edge. Before that happens, my big
> fingers end up hitting an adjacent key as well. It seems that I recenter
> best when I use the f or k key to guide me. That is an annoying
> operation.
>
> There really was an advantage to the old typewriter keys that had about
> half the area of a Apple keyboard key. You knew when you were drifting
> off b before getting superfluous characters.
>
> Bill

I look at the screen 90% of the time except when I use the top row. I
didn't learn the numbers all that well and have to look. Same with the
punctuation marks.

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically by ignored]

In article <vilain->,
Michael Vilain <> wrote:

> I look at the screen 90% of the time except when I use the top row.
> I didn't learn the numbers all that well and have to look. Same with
> the punctuation marks.

Same here. On the other hand, I learned a ten key decades ago, and can
use the numeric pad without looking at it.

-- Michelle

--
It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the GOP did to America.