Re: Wow 10.5.7 on $999 macbook

Mark Shapiro wrote:

>
> One glitch - the newest OWC firewire 800 drives
> will not boot your Mac as they don't have the
> Oxford chip set...
>

I've read that only the Oxford chip set works. I don't understand it.
My Macally PHR-100AF uses the Initio 1430 chip set. It boots my G4 with
Tiger.

E Z Peaces <> wrote:

> Mark Shapiro wrote:
>
> >
> > One glitch - the newest OWC firewire 800 drives
> > will not boot your Mac as they don't have the
> > Oxford chip set...
>
> I've read that only the Oxford chip set works. I don't understand it.
> My Macally PHR-100AF uses the Initio 1430 chip set. It boots my G4 with
> Tiger.

The Oxford chipsets are a series which are known to boot Macs.

Some non-Oxford chipsets can't boot a Mac, while others can.

Unless there is other evidence of Mac boot support (e.g. the
manufacturer of the enclosure mentions this as a feature) then you
should pick an Oxford chipset if you have a choice.

--
David Empson

E Z Peaces wrote:
> Mark Shapiro wrote:
>> One glitch - the newest OWC firewire 800 drives
>> will not boot your Mac as they don't have the
>> Oxford chip set...
>
> I've read that only the Oxford chip set works. I don't understand it.
> My Macally PHR-100AF uses the Initio 1430 chip set. It boots my G4 with
> Tiger.

I've never read anyting like that. I can boot from any of my FW disks -
even on good ol OS 8.6.x.:-) - I can also boot my Beige G3 and PM 9600
from an external USB disk connected via a NewerTech PowerFoce Combo
USB+FW PCI card, though it shouldn't be so with these oldies. So I think
it's a matter of 'trust'... Oxford chipsets _guarantee_ that they are
bootable, - other chipsets - Initio, NEC etc. - _may_ be bootable...

cheers, Erik Richard

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac->
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Erik Richard Sørensen wrote:
>
> E Z Peaces wrote:
>> Mark Shapiro wrote:
>>> One glitch - the newest OWC firewire 800 drives
>>> will not boot your Mac as they don't have the
>>> Oxford chip set...
>>
>> I've read that only the Oxford chip set works. I don't understand it.
>> My Macally PHR-100AF uses the Initio 1430 chip set. It boots my G4
>> with Tiger.
>
> I've never read anyting like that. I can boot from any of my FW disks -
> even on good ol OS 8.6.x.:-) - I can also boot my Beige G3 and PM 9600
> from an external USB disk connected via a NewerTech PowerFoce Combo
> USB+FW PCI card, though it shouldn't be so with these oldies. So I think
> it's a matter of 'trust'... Oxford chipsets _guarantee_ that they are
> bootable, - other chipsets - Initio, NEC etc. - _may_ be bootable...
>
> cheers, Erik Richard
>
Thanks to you and Dave.

I like your underlining. /How/ did you do it?

The above quote, "will not boot your Mac as they don't have the Oxford
chip set..." is an example of what I have interpreted to say only Oxford
works.

When I shopped for an Firewire drive enclosure, chip set designations
were hard to find. Those known to use Oxford didn't amount to a
suitable selection. I emailed one manufacturer to ask what chip set a
particular enclosure used and whether it would boot a mac. He told me
the chip set and said he'd have tech support tell me if it would boot a
Mac. When I didn't hear, I emailed again and got no answer.

Perhaps it was a customer review that told me the Macally enclosure
would boot a Mac. If a Firewire enclosure will boot a Mac, I think
advertising it could significantly increase sales.

I may have booted hundreds of times from my Macally enclosure. Twice,
my Mac has hung on the gray screen. Each time, it started normally on
my second attempt.

I remember those incidents because the light on the enclosure showed no
disk activity. If it had happened only with my Macally enclosure, I
might think there was a minor incompatibility with the chip set, but I
think I've seen the same problem with my internal drive. I wonder what
could cause it.

E Z Peaces wrote:
> Erik Richard Sørensen wrote:
>> E Z Peaces wrote:
>>> Mark Shapiro wrote:
>>>> One glitch - the newest OWC firewire 800 drives
>>>> will not boot your Mac as they don't have the
>>>> Oxford chip set...
>>>
>>> I've read that only the Oxford chip set works. I don't understand
>>> it. My Macally PHR-100AF uses the Initio 1430 chip set. It boots my
>>> G4 with Tiger.
>>
>> I've never read anyting like that. I can boot from any of my FW disks
>> - even on good ol OS 8.6.x.:-) - I can also boot my Beige G3 and PM
>> 9600 from an external USB disk connected via a NewerTech PowerFoce
>> Combo USB+FW PCI card, though it shouldn't be so with these oldies. So
>> I think it's a matter of 'trust'... Oxford chipsets _guarantee_ that
>> they are bootable, - other chipsets - Initio, NEC etc. - _may_ be
>> bootable...
>
> Thanks to you and Dave.
>
> I like your underlining. /How/ did you do it?

Underlining is easy - just use SHIFT+- as the first and last character
in a word - for example - '_and' gives no underlining, but '_and_' does.
- I always use either Western ISO-8859-1 or Unicode UTF-8 character
encoding, so at least in these two, the '_' is recognized as underlining
when starting and ending a word with it...

> The above quote, "will not boot your Mac as they don't have the Oxford
> chip set..." is an example of what I have interpreted to say only Oxford
> works.
>
> When I shopped for an Firewire drive enclosure, chip set designations
> were hard to find. Those known to use Oxford didn't amount to a
> suitable selection. I emailed one manufacturer to ask what chip set a
> particular enclosure used and whether it would boot a mac. He told me
> the chip set and said he'd have tech support tell me if it would boot a
> Mac. When I didn't hear, I emailed again and got no answer.

Some techs aren't that polite to answer. I once asked a specific company
for information on a specific tool. Got no answer after 6 weeks, asked
again, still got no answer. - It has been three years ago now, so I've
given up and bought another product.:-))

> Perhaps it was a customer review that told me the Macally enclosure
> would boot a Mac. If a Firewire enclosure will boot a Mac, I think
> advertising it could significantly increase sales.

Hm, I don't think I've seen a customer review since about 1996 on a
Firewire enclosure that couldn't boot a Nac... - And never one on the
OWC Mercury, Neptune and On-The-Go series...

> I may have booted hundreds of times from my Macally enclosure. Twice,
> my Mac has hung on the gray screen. Each time, it started normally on
> my second attempt.
>
> I remember those incidents because the light on the enclosure showed no
> disk activity. If it had happened only with my Macally enclosure, I
> might think there was a minor incompatibility with the chip set, but I
> think I've seen the same problem with my internal drive. I wonder what
> could cause it.

This can be caused by different things - a bad file structure on the
recipient disk, bad permissions on the source disk, bad cabling, wrong
cable - e.g. using a 4/6 cable instead of the full 6/6 cable. A bug in
the application being used for cloning also can cause real problems...

In your case I'm most likely to think that you might have bad
permissions or a bad or incorrect file structure on either or both
disks, - maybe a cable issue...

Cheers, Erik Richard

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac->
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Erik Richard Sørensen wrote:
> E Z Peaces wrote:
>> I like your underlining. /How/ did you do it?
>
> Underlining is easy - just use SHIFT+- as the first and last character
> in a word - for example - '_and' gives no underlining, but '_and_' does.
> - I always use either Western ISO-8859-1 or Unicode UTF-8 character
> encoding, so at least in these two, the '_' is recognized as underlining
> when starting and ending a word with it...

Ha! that one - underlining the whole sentense - was even new to me in
SeaMonkey 1.1.17.:-) - Earlier the monkey always used to only underline
one word if I write as I did. This must have been a bug then, cause if i
remember right the versions 0.8 and 0.9 all underlined whole
sentenses... - But at least I meant to say that only an underscore in
front of a word won't underline the whole word.:-))

Cheers, Erik Richard

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac->
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Erik Richard Sørensen wrote:
>
> E Z Peaces wrote:

>
>> Perhaps it was a customer review that told me the Macally enclosure
>> would boot a Mac. If a Firewire enclosure will boot a Mac, I think
>> advertising it could significantly increase sales.
>
> Hm, I don't think I've seen a customer review since about 1996 on a
> Firewire enclosure that couldn't boot a Nac... - And never one on the
> OWC Mercury, Neptune and On-The-Go series...

The PHR-100AF is the only 3.5" Firewire enclosure Newegg lists. Of 38
reviews, several say it will mount with OS X, but only one says it will
boot.

Newegg lists 30 3.5" Firewire/USB enclosures. The first, BYTECC
ME-835U2F, has 16 reviews. One says it won't boot with OS X.

If I went through all the reviews for the other 29, I'm sure not many
would mention booting with OS X.
>
>> I may have booted hundreds of times from my Macally enclosure. Twice,
>> my Mac has hung on the gray screen. Each time, it started normally on
>> my second attempt.
>>
>> I remember those incidents because the light on the enclosure showed
>> no disk activity. If it had happened only with my Macally enclosure,
>> I might think there was a minor incompatibility with the chip set, but
>> I think I've seen the same problem with my internal drive. I wonder
>> what could cause it.
>
> This can be caused by different things - a bad file structure on the
> recipient disk, bad permissions on the source disk, bad cabling, wrong
> cable - e.g. using a 4/6 cable instead of the full 6/6 cable. A bug in
> the application being used for cloning also can cause real problems...
>
> In your case I'm most likely to think that you might have bad
> permissions or a bad or incorrect file structure on either or both
> disks, - maybe a cable issue...
>
> Cheers, Erik Richard
>
The problem I've had occasionally is stalling on a gray screen while
booting. I may have started with the same disk dozens of times since my
last cloning. If after several minutes I hold the start button to shut
down, then start again, it will start okay the second time and I won't
see evidence of what was wrong.

In verifying permissions, I often get _Permissions differ on
../private/var/log/secure.log, should be -rw------- , they are -rw-r-----_

*(I wonder if that quote will be underlined.)*

In verifying my disk, I often get a notification that the volume header
needs minor repair. I've read that it may be because of an impossible
date or a difference between the two copies of the header, and that it
could probably be neglected for years without causing trouble.

sbt wrote:
> In article <h401qu$c6t$>, E Z Peaces
> <> wrote:
>
>> I like your underlining. /How/ did you do it?
>>
>
> Old Usenet convention: place an underscore on both sides of the word to
> be underlined and (proper) news clients will display it underlined.
> Similarly, you can place an asterisk on either side of a word to
> boldface it.
>
_testing_

*using* _western_8859-1_

E Z Peaces wrote:
> Erik Richard Sørensen wrote:
>> E Z Peaces wrote:
>>> Perhaps it was a customer review that told me the Macally enclosure
>>> would boot a Mac. If a Firewire enclosure will boot a Mac, I think
>>> advertising it could significantly increase sales.
>>
>> Hm, I don't think I've seen a customer review since about 1996 on a
>> Firewire enclosure that couldn't boot a Nac... - And never one on the
>> OWC Mercury, Neptune and On-The-Go series...
>
> The PHR-100AF is the only 3.5" Firewire enclosure Newegg lists. Of 38
> reviews, several say it will mount with OS X, but only one says it will
> boot.
>
> Newegg lists 30 3.5" Firewire/USB enclosures. The first, BYTECC
> ME-835U2F, has 16 reviews. One says it won't boot with OS X.
>
> If I went through all the reviews for the other 29, I'm sure not many
> would mention booting with OS X.

OK, I don't know Newegg, so I can't tell about these.. - i started with
a Mercury and have sticked to these since then.

>>> I may have booted hundreds of times from my Macally enclosure.
>>> Twice, my Mac has hung on the gray screen. Each time, it started
>>> normally on my second attempt.
>>>
>>> I remember those incidents because the light on the enclosure showed
>>> no disk activity. If it had happened only with my Macally enclosure,
>>> I might think there was a minor incompatibility with the chip set,
>>> but I think I've seen the same problem with my internal drive. I
>>> wonder what could cause it.
>>
>> This can be caused by different things - a bad file structure on the
>> recipient disk, bad permissions on the source disk, bad cabling, wrong
>> cable - e.g. using a 4/6 cable instead of the full 6/6 cable. A bug in
>> the application being used for cloning also can cause real problems...
>>
>> In your case I'm most likely to think that you might have bad
>> permissions or a bad or incorrect file structure on either or both
>> disks, - maybe a cable issue...
>
> The problem I've had occasionally is stalling on a gray screen while
> booting. I may have started with the same disk dozens of times since my
> last cloning. If after several minutes I hold the start button to shut
> down, then start again, it will start okay the second time and I won't
> see evidence of what was wrong.
>
> In verifying permissions, I often get _Permissions differ on
> ./private/var/log/secure.log, should be -rw------- , they are -rw-r-----_
>
> *(I wonder if that quote will be underlined.)*

No it isn't..-)

> In verifying my disk, I often get a notification that the volume header
> needs minor repair. I've read that it may be because of an impossible
> date or a difference between the two copies of the header, and that it
> could probably be neglected for years without causing trouble.

This makes me think that you have an error somewhere in one of the first
B-tree nodes and leaves in the Extend B-tree file stucture. If you have
Alsoft DiskWarrior 4.1 or later you can try to run it on both your
internal and external disks first in the 'check' mode and then -if
there are B-tree errors - just let DiskWarrior replace the file
structure. If you don't have DW, just run DiskUtility -> Repair disk and
Repair permissions to see, if DU will repair the minor issues.

In worst case - it might be that one (or both) disk(s) are about to be
that bad that it suddenly dies. - Here I though suspect the external
disk at most, since it is the elder of the two... Not being able to keep
the file structure correctly is normally one of the first signs that a
disk is about leaving this world for good.

cheers, Erik Richard

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <mac->
NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Erik Richard Sørensen wrote:
>
> E Z Peaces wrote:

>> In verifying my disk, I often get a notification that the volume
>> header needs minor repair. I've read that it may be because of an
>> impossible date or a difference between the two copies of the header,
>> and that it could probably be neglected for years without causing
>> trouble.
>
> This makes me think that you have an error somewhere in one of the first
> B-tree nodes and leaves in the Extend B-tree file stucture. If you have
> Alsoft DiskWarrior 4.1 or later you can try to run it on both your
> internal and external disks first in the 'check' mode and then -if
> there are B-tree errors - just let DiskWarrior replace the file
> structure. If you don't have DW, just run DiskUtility -> Repair disk and
> Repair permissions to see, if DU will repair the minor issues.
>
> In worst case - it might be that one (or both) disk(s) are about to be
> that bad that it suddenly dies. - Here I though suspect the external
> disk at most, since it is the elder of the two... Not being able to keep
> the file structure correctly is normally one of the first signs that a
> disk is about leaving this world for good.
>
> cheers, Erik Richard
>
I got the problem several times with my OEM internal disk. Then I used
a faster Firewire disk to boot, and the problem didn't occur. When I
put the same disk in a different Firewire enclosure, the problem recurred.

I replaced my internal disk, and problem happened when I booted from it,
too. Both internal disks have had the problem with no external disk
connected. It may have been coincidence that I didn't see it with a
particular disk/enclosure combination.

DiskUtility always fixes it. It may recur in a week or a couple of
months. I found an explanation at an online Mac forum. If OS X
sometimes writes a wrong date, that could be why the problem is the same
for three boot disks. A respondent said DiskUtility often turned up
that error on his Mac. He's a columnist for one of the Mac magazines.

Speaking of disk repairs, I wonder why fsck isn't recommended for Tiger.
Starting in Safe Mode is recommended for disk repair, but then a popup
informs me that it's better to boot from another disk. If I use fsck or
Safe Mode, a subsequent check with DU will tell me everything is ok.