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A 300-Watt USB plug?

Discussion in 'Intel' started by Yousuf Khan, Oct 8, 2010.

  1. Yousuf Khan

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    After Intel's nearly killed USB 3.0 in favour of its sciene project,
    LightPeak, it looks like it's now going the other way with suggestions
    for new features for USB 3.0+. It's considering making increasing amount
    of power USB ports are able to deliver, by both increasing voltage and
    amperage. This one seems like an immediatel useful science project.

    Yousuf Khan

    ***

    SemiAccurate :: Intel is considering some tweaks to the USB standard
    "USB devices are going to need to be able to deliver more power, a lot
    more power in fact and it looks like Intel wants to implement support
    for up to 42V at 1.8A for a total peak power draw of 35W. However, this
    appears to be just a first step with the presentation mentioning "future
    expansion to 200-300W using new connectors". Now that might seem a
    little bit excessive, but it would allow you to plug in just about
    anything to a USB port and it would be able to either be powered by it
    or charged by it. However, Intel also wants USB to be able to deliver
    less than 5V, something that some devices require and can’t have today."
    http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/10/07/intel-considering-some-tweaks-usb-standard/
     
    Yousuf Khan, Oct 8, 2010
    #1
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  2. Yousuf Khan

    Rod Speed Guest

    Yousuf Khan wrote:
    > After Intel's nearly killed USB 3.0 in favour of its sciene project,
    > LightPeak, it looks like it's now going the other way with suggestions
    > for new features for USB 3.0+. It's considering making increasing
    > amount of power USB ports are able to deliver, by both increasing
    > voltage and amperage. This one seems like an immediatel useful
    > science project.
    > Yousuf Khan
    >
    > ***
    >
    > SemiAccurate :: Intel is considering some tweaks to the USB standard
    > "USB devices are going to need to be able to deliver more power, a lot
    > more power in fact and it looks like Intel wants to implement support
    > for up to 42V at 1.8A for a total peak power draw of 35W. However,
    > this appears to be just a first step with the presentation mentioning
    > "future expansion to 200-300W using new connectors". Now that might
    > seem a little bit excessive, but it would allow you to plug in just
    > about anything to a USB port and it would be able to either be
    > powered by it or charged by it.


    Wont handle my microwave or my welder either.

    Wont even handle the fan heater either.

    > However, Intel also wants USB to be able to deliver less than 5V, something that some devices require and can’t have
    > today."
    > http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/10/07/intel-considering-some-tweaks-usb-standard/
     
    Rod Speed, Oct 8, 2010
    #2
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  3. Yousuf Khan

    Intel Guest

    Yousuf Khan wrote:

    > Intel is considering some tweaks to the USB standard "USB devices
    > are going to need to be able to deliver more power, a lot
    > more power in fact. However, this appears to be just a first
    > step with the presentation mentioning "future expansion to 200-
    > 300W using new connectors".


    Finally - The USB-powered toaster has arrived!

    What's next?

    Maybe Intel wants me to be able to recharge my electric car from a USB
    port?
     
    Intel, Oct 9, 2010
    #3
  4. Yousuf Khan

    Guest

    On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 19:54:46 -0400, Intel <> wrote:

    >Yousuf Khan wrote:
    >
    >> Intel is considering some tweaks to the USB standard "USB devices
    >> are going to need to be able to deliver more power, a lot
    >> more power in fact. However, this appears to be just a first
    >> step with the presentation mentioning "future expansion to 200-
    >> 300W using new connectors".

    >
    >Finally - The USB-powered toaster has arrived!
    >
    >What's next?
    >
    >Maybe Intel wants me to be able to recharge my electric car from a USB
    >port?


    On your laptop? Hey, you could plug the laptop into the cigarette lighter!
     
    , Oct 9, 2010
    #4
  5. In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips zzzzzzzz <> wrote in part:
    > On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 19:54:46 -0400, Intel <> wrote:
    >>Yousuf Khan wrote:
    >>> Intel is considering some tweaks to the USB standard
    >>> "USB devices are going to need to be able to deliver more
    >>> power, a lot more power in fact. However, this appears
    >>> to be just a first step with the presentation mentioning
    >>> "future expansion to 200- 300W using new connectors".

    >>
    >>Finally - The USB-powered toaster has arrived! >>What's next?
    >>Maybe Intel wants me to be able to recharge my electric
    >>car from a USB port?

    >
    > On your laptop? Hey, you could plug the laptop into the
    > cigarette lighter!



    Ha.Ha More seriously, what V * A this is going to be
    and how it will ever stay under the NEC low-voltage Class2
    (30Vrms or 60Vdc, 100VA)?

    Is Intel going to go with 60 Vdc @ 5A and try to get waivers
    with GFIC balancing & fast overcurrent trips? That'll take
    at least 2*18 AWG, not the nice flexible 24 AWG . Or are
    they thinking something even nuttier, like 300Vdc @ 1A to
    keep wiresize down?. What protections will convince NFPA & UL ?


    -- Robert
     
    Robert Redelmeier, Oct 9, 2010
    #5
  6. Yousuf Khan

    Guest

    On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 02:34:34 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    <> wrote:

    >In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips zzzzzzzz <> wrote in part:
    >> On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 19:54:46 -0400, Intel <> wrote:
    >>>Yousuf Khan wrote:
    >>>> Intel is considering some tweaks to the USB standard
    >>>> "USB devices are going to need to be able to deliver more
    >>>> power, a lot more power in fact. However, this appears
    >>>> to be just a first step with the presentation mentioning
    >>>> "future expansion to 200- 300W using new connectors".
    >>>
    >>>Finally - The USB-powered toaster has arrived! >>What's next?
    >>>Maybe Intel wants me to be able to recharge my electric
    >>>car from a USB port?

    >>
    >> On your laptop? Hey, you could plug the laptop into the
    >> cigarette lighter!

    >
    >
    >Ha.Ha More seriously, what V * A this is going to be
    >and how it will ever stay under the NEC low-voltage Class2
    >(30Vrms or 60Vdc, 100VA)?
    >
    >Is Intel going to go with 60 Vdc @ 5A and try to get waivers
    >with GFIC balancing & fast overcurrent trips? That'll take
    >at least 2*18 AWG, not the nice flexible 24 AWG . Or are
    >they thinking something even nuttier, like 300Vdc @ 1A to
    >keep wiresize down?. What protections will convince NFPA & UL ?


    I was wondering the same thing. ...and why would I need so much power. It's
    *got* to be expensive. The whole idea of USB is that it's cheaper than dirt.
     
    , Oct 9, 2010
    #6
  7. In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips zzzzzzzz <> wrote in part:
    > On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 02:34:34 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    >>Ha.Ha More seriously, what V * A this is going to be
    >>and how it will ever stay under the NEC low-voltage Class2
    >>(30Vrms or 60Vdc, 100VA)?
    >>
    >>Is Intel going to go with 60 Vdc @ 5A and try to get waivers
    >>with GFIC balancing & fast overcurrent trips? That'll take
    >>at least 2*18 AWG, not the nice flexible 24 AWG . Or are
    >>they thinking something even nuttier, like 300Vdc @ 1A to
    >>keep wiresize down?. What protections will convince NFPA & UL ?

    >
    > I was wondering the same thing. ...and why would I need
    > so much power. It's *got* to be expensive. The whole idea
    > of USB is that it's cheaper than dirt.


    I can see why the power -- getting rid of not-dirt-cheap wallwarts.
    How is a lot trickier. But I can see ways since actives
    (semiconductor logic) are also cheaper than dirt. Maybe even
    get around the hiV arc-flash.

    -- Robert
     
    Robert Redelmeier, Oct 9, 2010
    #7
  8. Yousuf Khan

    Tom Lake Guest


    > Wont handle my microwave or my welder either.
    >
    > Wont even handle the fan heater either.


    If my car's battery goes dead, maybe I can start my car with it?

    Tom L
     
    Tom Lake, Oct 9, 2010
    #8
  9. Yousuf Khan

    daytripper Guest

    On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 11:59:53 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    <> wrote:

    >In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips zzzzzzzz <> wrote in part:
    >> On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 02:34:34 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    >>>Ha.Ha More seriously, what V * A this is going to be
    >>>and how it will ever stay under the NEC low-voltage Class2
    >>>(30Vrms or 60Vdc, 100VA)?
    >>>
    >>>Is Intel going to go with 60 Vdc @ 5A and try to get waivers
    >>>with GFIC balancing & fast overcurrent trips? That'll take
    >>>at least 2*18 AWG, not the nice flexible 24 AWG . Or are
    >>>they thinking something even nuttier, like 300Vdc @ 1A to
    >>>keep wiresize down?. What protections will convince NFPA & UL ?

    >>
    >> I was wondering the same thing. ...and why would I need
    >> so much power. It's *got* to be expensive. The whole idea
    >> of USB is that it's cheaper than dirt.

    >
    >I can see why the power -- getting rid of not-dirt-cheap wallwarts.
    >How is a lot trickier. But I can see ways since actives
    >(semiconductor logic) are also cheaper than dirt. Maybe even
    >get around the hiV arc-flash.
    >
    >-- Robert


    Actually, wallwarts *are* dirt cheap.

    But, more to the point, when have you ever even heard of a "300 watt
    wallwart"? Or anything even close to that capacity?

    I'd guess 99.very_large_integer% of the wallwarts *ever sold* - at least in
    the Reality I inhabit - are under 24 watts capacity...

    /daytripper
     
    daytripper, Oct 9, 2010
    #9
  10. Yousuf Khan

    Guest

    On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 11:06:00 -0400, daytripper <>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 11:59:53 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips zzzzzzzz <> wrote in part:
    >>> On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 02:34:34 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    >>>>Ha.Ha More seriously, what V * A this is going to be
    >>>>and how it will ever stay under the NEC low-voltage Class2
    >>>>(30Vrms or 60Vdc, 100VA)?
    >>>>
    >>>>Is Intel going to go with 60 Vdc @ 5A and try to get waivers
    >>>>with GFIC balancing & fast overcurrent trips? That'll take
    >>>>at least 2*18 AWG, not the nice flexible 24 AWG . Or are
    >>>>they thinking something even nuttier, like 300Vdc @ 1A to
    >>>>keep wiresize down?. What protections will convince NFPA & UL ?
    >>>
    >>> I was wondering the same thing. ...and why would I need
    >>> so much power. It's *got* to be expensive. The whole idea
    >>> of USB is that it's cheaper than dirt.

    >>
    >>I can see why the power -- getting rid of not-dirt-cheap wallwarts.
    >>How is a lot trickier. But I can see ways since actives
    >>(semiconductor logic) are also cheaper than dirt. Maybe even
    >>get around the hiV arc-flash.


    100VA is enough for that, IMO.

    >Actually, wallwarts *are* dirt cheap.


    Cheap but not *dirt* cheap. We're paying about $5 each for 10W WWs in
    five-thousand lots. Even putting a zero or two behind the quantity doesn't
    get them down too much further.

    >But, more to the point, when have you ever even heard of a "300 watt
    >wallwart"? Or anything even close to that capacity?


    Laser printer? ;-)

    >I'd guess 99.very_large_integer% of the wallwarts *ever sold* - at least in
    >the Reality I inhabit - are under 24 watts capacity...


    Probably a lot less than that. Most go for things like mice and maybe USB
    disk drives. My scanner has a big one, 36W.

    Another problem I see is hubs. Are they all going to supply 300W? ...or does
    the wiring (and planning) just get that much more complicated.
     
    , Oct 9, 2010
    #10
  11. In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips daytripper <> wrote in part:
    > Actually, wallwarts *are* dirt cheap.


    As Keith posts side-thread, not all that cheap, especially if you
    are targetting a device which retails for $99. Then there is all
    the packaging hassle and different versions required, especially
    for the EU states. Not to mention RMA issues.


    > But, more to the point, when have you ever even heard of a
    > "300 watt wallwart"? Or anything even close to that capacity?


    Granted no, but I'd include power bricks in "wallwarts", and many
    of them are ~100W, admittedly for heavier devices like laptops.


    > I'd guess 99.very_large_integer% of the wallwarts *ever sold* -
    > at least in the Reality I inhabit - are under 24 watts capacity...


    Agreed. A less ambitious goal for PoUSB would be more reasonable.
    The current 500mA @ 5V is 'way light. It is rather silly that
    2.5"HDs can be USB powered, but 3.5"HDs need an external source.
    Why the stupid wallwart for speakers? 24W is quite reasonable.

    The idea of powering a laser printer through the CPU is just
    nuts. An inkjet, OK. I'm a little squeamish about centrally
    powering the monitor even though my first machines worked this way.
    But not a projector (that bulb needs cooling).

    -- Robert
     
    Robert Redelmeier, Oct 9, 2010
    #11
  12. Yousuf Khan

    Guest

    On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 22:19:28 +0000 (UTC), Robert Redelmeier
    <> wrote:

    >In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips daytripper <> wrote in part:
    >> Actually, wallwarts *are* dirt cheap.

    >
    >As Keith posts side-thread, not all that cheap, especially if you
    >are targetting a device which retails for $99. Then there is all
    >the packaging hassle and different versions required, especially
    >for the EU states. Not to mention RMA issues.


    Two points. Our (10W) wall warts have replaceable connectors for world-wide
    use. That can be dealt with. Some devices are in the $50 range. 10% of
    *retail* to the WW manufacturer is a *lot*.

    >> But, more to the point, when have you ever even heard of a
    >> "300 watt wallwart"? Or anything even close to that capacity?

    >
    >Granted no, but I'd include power bricks in "wallwarts", and many
    >of them are ~100W, admittedly for heavier devices like laptops.


    Laptops powered by USB... Now there is a picture. ;-) Who's the boss?

    >> I'd guess 99.very_large_integer% of the wallwarts *ever sold* -
    >> at least in the Reality I inhabit - are under 24 watts capacity...

    >
    >Agreed. A less ambitious goal for PoUSB would be more reasonable.
    >The current 500mA @ 5V is 'way light. It is rather silly that
    >2.5"HDs can be USB powered, but 3.5"HDs need an external source.
    >Why the stupid wallwart for speakers? 24W is quite reasonable.


    Some 2.5" drives needed a PS, too. Or perhaps it's just that not all USB
    ports really can supply .5A. Anyway, some of mine came with WWs.

    >The idea of powering a laser printer through the CPU is just
    >nuts. An inkjet, OK. I'm a little squeamish about centrally
    >powering the monitor even though my first machines worked this way.
    >But not a projector (that bulb needs cooling).


    SMOP for the device driver. ;-)
     
    , Oct 10, 2010
    #12
  13. On 10/09/10 06:19 pm, Robert Redelmeier wrote:

    <snip>

    > The current 500mA @ 5V is 'way light. It is rather silly that
    > 2.5"HDs can be USB powered, but 3.5"HDs need an external source.


    Don't 3,5" HDs need 12v as well as 5v?

    Perce
     
    Percival P. Cassidy, Oct 10, 2010
    #13
  14. In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Percival P. Cassidy <> wrote in part:
    > On 10/09/10 06:19 pm, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
    >> The current 500mA @ 5V is 'way light. It is rather silly that
    >> 2.5"HDs can be USB powered, but 3.5"HDs need an external source.

    >
    > Don't 3,5" HDs need 12v as well as 5v?



    Good point, but with enough current allowable on the 5v,
    the 12v could be made by switching up. There are good
    tech reasons, but it just exaggerates a category break.

    -- Robert
     
    Robert Redelmeier, Oct 10, 2010
    #14
  15. Yousuf Khan

    Arno Guest

    In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Percival P. Cassidy <> wrote:
    > On 10/09/10 06:19 pm, Robert Redelmeier wrote:


    > <snip>


    >> The current 500mA @ 5V is 'way light. It is rather silly that
    >> 2.5"HDs can be USB powered, but 3.5"HDs need an external source.


    > Don't 3,5" HDs need 12v as well as 5v?


    They do and the reason is far heavier spindle and head assembly.

    Arno
    --
    Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email:
    GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
    ----
    Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans
     
    Arno, Oct 10, 2010
    #15
  16. Yousuf Khan

    yessir

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    I think the idea is to have the bus power things like monitors. Light Peak now seems to be more of a supplement to USB 3.0 than a replacement for it. It's supposed to support USB 3.0 natively, so really it would be replacing only the cables and not the standard itself.
     
    yessir, Nov 30, 2010
    #16
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