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Alternatives for ground (for PC's)

Discussion in 'Nvidia' started by Skybuck Flying, Sep 7, 2011.

  1. Hello,

    I am starting to suspect "ground" for PC's does more damage than good.

    Perhaps the "ground" leads to a "backdoor" for electricity to do damage.

    Therefore instead of dumping energy into the ground wire an alternative
    could be found.

    For example some kind of circuit which transfer the energy into heat.

    So that the energy is dumped into the system's air.

    This way PC's no longer require a "ground" and there is no longer a
    "backdoor" for damage.

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Sep 7, 2011
    #1
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  2. This alternative would be especially usefull for environments which don't
    have a ground.

    Like my living room or perhaps international space station ?

    Does ISS have a ground ? ;)

    How about laptops ? Do they have a ground when not plugged in ?

    How about iPads or iPhones ?

    Bye,
    Skybuck =D
     
    Skybuck Flying, Sep 7, 2011
    #2
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  3. Oh really,

    Sounds like you making a joke ?!

    But just in case your are not, provide some proof/documentation of these
    "facts" ! ;) :)

    It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    else does not.

    I was thinking maybe the excessive stuff is stored inside and later
    dispossed when charging.

    But what if a device would not need any charging for a long time ? ;)

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Sep 7, 2011
    #3
  4. In case you are making a joke I will add to it:

    "It is not disposed it is exploded into your head when the battery
    explodes".

    Bye,
    Skybuck.

    "Mark Thorson" wrote in message news:...

    Skybuck Flying wrote:
    >
    > How about laptops ? Do they have a ground when not plugged in ?


    They use the human body. The ground is that
    warm spot on the bottom.

    > How about iPads or iPhones ?


    The ground is in the earpiece. Excess electricity
    is passed into your head.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Sep 7, 2011
    #4
  5. Skybuck Flying

    Mark Thorson Guest

    Skybuck Flying wrote:
    >
    > How about laptops ? Do they have a ground when not plugged in ?


    They use the human body. The ground is that
    warm spot on the bottom.

    > How about iPads or iPhones ?


    The ground is in the earpiece. Excess electricity
    is passed into your head.
     
    Mark Thorson, Sep 7, 2011
    #5
  6. Skybuck Flying

    Dave Platt Guest

    In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$1.nb.home.nl>,
    Skybuck Flying <> wrote:

    >It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    >else does not.


    Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.

    Many other sorts of device do (for legal and safety reasons) require a
    ground connection. Here in the U.S., most major appliances do require
    three-wire grounded power cords.

    Here's the short version, as it applies to power-mains circuitry in
    the United States. Details may differ for mains connection rules in
    other countries.

    An appliance generally requires a safety-ground connection, if it has
    a metal chassis or other electrically-conductive exterior, which can
    be touched by a human. This chassis is required to be connected to a
    safety ground - one which returns to the ground connection at the
    power distribution panel, and which does not carry any portion of the
    normal load-return current.

    This safety grounding of the chassis is intended to protect humans
    against shock, if an electrical fault develops inside the device (e.g.
    a loose wire) that could create an electrical connection between the
    power wiring and the chassis.

    Without a safety ground to the chassis, this sort of fault will result
    in a "hot" chassis. If a person were to touch the chassis, at the
    same time that they were touching a grounded object (or standing in
    water, or etc.), their body would complete the circuit and AC power
    would flow through their body. The amount of current needed to kill a
    person is *far* too small to blow a fuse, and thus the person could die.

    Grounding the chassis prevents this. If a "weak" connection between
    the power wiring and the chassis occurs (e.g. low-level leakage), the
    safety ground will hold the chassis very near to the ground voltage
    level, reducing the risk of electrical shock by quite a lot. If a
    real short-circuit to the chassis occurs, the grounding of the chassis
    will either cause the fuse to blow, or will result in a loud
    SPLUT-BANG! which will vaporize the shorting wire, or both.

    Appliance do not require a safety ground if they're designed in a way
    which prevents an internal fault from creating a hot chassis. One way
    is often referred to as a "double-insulated" design... the wires
    themselves are insulated, and the device's outer shell consists only
    of nonconductive (insulated) materials.

    In the U.S., you can also do away with the need for a safety ground
    (in some cases) by using a "ground-fault interruptor" - a device which
    detects the fact that "current is flowing where it should not" and
    disconnects the power before injury can occur.

    Desktop and server PCs usually require safety grounds because they are
    not double-insulated... they have exposed metal on their backplanes
    (and often the case is metal) and their internal power supplies have
    metal cases which are connected directly to the outer case.

    Laptop PCs can sometimes operate without a safety ground, because they
    have nonconductive (plastic) cases, and because the power entering the
    PC is at a low enough voltage that it does not create a significant
    shock hazard.

    --
    Dave Platt <> AE6EO
    Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
    I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
    boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
     
    Dave Platt, Sep 8, 2011
    #6
  7. On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:42:01 -0700, (Dave Platt)
    wrote:

    >Laptop PCs can sometimes operate without a safety ground, because they
    >have nonconductive (plastic) cases, and because the power entering the
    >PC is at a low enough voltage that it does not create a significant
    >shock hazard.



    Below certain power levels, gadgets powered by an appropriately
    designed wallwart are exempt from grounding, since the wallwart
    provides the required isolation.
     
    Robert Wessel, Sep 8, 2011
    #7
  8. "Dave Platt" wrote in message news:p...

    In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$1.nb.home.nl>,
    Skybuck Flying <> wrote:

    >It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    >else does not.


    "
    Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
    "

    My assumption is true.

    Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding
    power wall sockets.

    End of story.

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Sep 8, 2011
    #8
  9. Skybuck Flying

    Joe Pfeiffer Guest

    "Skybuck Flying" <> writes:

    > "Dave Platt" wrote in message news:p...
    >
    > In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$1.nb.home.nl>,
    > Skybuck Flying <> wrote:
    >
    >>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    >>else does not.

    >
    > "
    > Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
    > "
    >
    > My assumption is true.
    >
    > Everything should work without ground because not everything has
    > grounding power wall sockets.
    >
    > End of story.


    I don't suppose there is any remote possibility you might consider
    actually spending five minutes learning the faintest smidgeon about the
    topics you post on before you post? Or at least quit using new accounts
    so you'll quit escaping my killfiles?

    Didn't think so.
     
    Joe Pfeiffer, Sep 8, 2011
    #9
  10. Skybuck Flying

    Dave Platt Guest

    In article <276a6$4e683768$5419acc3$1.nb.home.nl>,
    Skybuck Flying <> wrote:

    >>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    >>else does not.

    >
    >"
    >Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
    >"
    >
    >My assumption is true.
    >
    >Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding
    >power wall sockets.
    >
    >End of story.


    Not quite - at least, not if you want a full answer.

    The answer is this: almost all such devices will "work" without a
    ground. You could cut off the ground prong of the power cord, plug
    the remaining two prongs into a non-grounding power wall socket, and
    the device would "work". It would run.

    However, it would not work *SAFELY* - at least, not in a legal sense.
    The device (PC, refrigerator, power tool, etc.) would have lost one of
    its designed-in safety features - that of a safe grounding of the
    chassis.

    If such a device were to develop an internal short circuit when it
    still had a ground, it would probably blow a fuse or trip a circuit
    breaker... annoying perhaps, but it would "fail safe".

    If you cut off or otherwise disable the ground prong on the plug, and
    the device develops an internal short circuit... the next time you
    touch it you can get a very severe shock and die. The device will not
    "fail safe".

    So, the device will still "work" without a ground... but what it
    "works on" may be the job of getting ready to kill you.

    This is why you really should not try to run your PC without a ground.
    It might have a grudge, and decide to electrocute you if given the
    opportunity.

    --
    Dave Platt <> AE6EO
    Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
    I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
    boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
     
    Dave Platt, Sep 8, 2011
    #10
  11. Skybuck Flying

    BGB Guest

    On 9/7/2011 10:32 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    > In article<276a6$4e683768$5419acc3$1.nb.home.nl>,
    > Skybuck Flying<> wrote:
    >
    >>> It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    >>> else does not.

    >>
    >> "
    >> Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
    >> "
    >>
    >> My assumption is true.
    >>
    >> Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding
    >> power wall sockets.
    >>
    >> End of story.

    >
    > Not quite - at least, not if you want a full answer.
    >
    > The answer is this: almost all such devices will "work" without a
    > ground. You could cut off the ground prong of the power cord, plug
    > the remaining two prongs into a non-grounding power wall socket, and
    > the device would "work". It would run.
    >
    > However, it would not work *SAFELY* - at least, not in a legal sense.
    > The device (PC, refrigerator, power tool, etc.) would have lost one of
    > its designed-in safety features - that of a safe grounding of the
    > chassis.
    >
    > If such a device were to develop an internal short circuit when it
    > still had a ground, it would probably blow a fuse or trip a circuit
    > breaker... annoying perhaps, but it would "fail safe".
    >
    > If you cut off or otherwise disable the ground prong on the plug, and
    > the device develops an internal short circuit... the next time you
    > touch it you can get a very severe shock and die. The device will not
    > "fail safe".
    >
    > So, the device will still "work" without a ground... but what it
    > "works on" may be the job of getting ready to kill you.
    >
    > This is why you really should not try to run your PC without a ground.
    > It might have a grudge, and decide to electrocute you if given the
    > opportunity.
    >


    I think one time, long ago, I tried running a PC with just a plain
    (non-grounded) extension cord, as I had nothing else at the time...

    however, it seemed to have fried the power-supply or something, as the
    thing didn't turn-on after this. this was back in the days when the
    power-supply switch was still mechanical (before ATX and its
    MOBO-controlled power), and if one hits the switch, and nothing happens,
    then the PSU is not happy...

    granted, thinking of it now, there could have been a safety fuse or
    something, which would blow if one tries to use the PSU without a proper
    ground.
     
    BGB, Sep 8, 2011
    #11
  12. On 9/7/2011 10:32 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    > This is why you really should not try to run your PC without a ground.
    > It might have a grudge, and decide to electrocute you if given the
    > opportunity.


    That would actually be a "permanent killfile" for this bozo. I'm tired
    of constantly adding new usernames to the "Skypuke Flailing" entry.

    Why did you have to warn him?

    He *still* knows nothing about electricity, this thread is almost a
    script rewrite of his "Is it possible to die from a battery ? " post in
    sci.electronics.design from Aug 5 2005.
    (Message-ID: <dcv6hl$rbk$1.ov.home.nl>)


    --
    "Shit this is it, all the pieces do fit.
    We're like that crazy old man jumping
    out of the alleyway with a baseball bat,
    saying, "Remember me motherfucker?"
    Jim “Dandy” Mangrum
     
    Nobody > (Revisited), Sep 8, 2011
    #12
  13. In article <>,
    Dave Platt <> wrote:
    >In article <372b9$4e67eabc$5419acc3$1.nb.home.nl>,
    >Skybuck Flying <> wrote:
    >
    >>It does raise the interesting question, why PC's need ground and everything
    >>else does not.

    >
    >Your assumption ("everything else does not") is false.
    >


    There are at least three types of ground. The first one, referred to
    by mr Platt, is the safety ground. This is designed to deflect chassis
    currents; keeping the voltage people, animals etc are exposed to to
    levels where less than 30mA is carried through the person/animal.

    At low levels of leak this takes care of itself, the ground has
    so much less resistance than the alternate path, so the exposed voltage
    is very low. If the leak increases, wires or fuses will break.

    For the intermediate case ground fault breakers have been installed. This
    is a more recent development. Fuses date to the 1880s, invented 4 hours after
    Edison discovered (or invented, as he claimed) the short circuit.

    Then there is shielding ground. The purpose of this is to make an electromagnetic
    inert shield around signal carrying wires, to dampen interference and
    signal leakage. This can be carried to extremes, like in tempest enclosures.

    And at last there is signal ground. This is one part of a circuit carrying a
    signal. In some cases signal and shield is the same, e.g. RG58 carrying 10base2
    signals. This has a lot of disadvantages, if there are shield problems you may
    get creeping currents all around your network.

    It is a good idea to separate all of these. You normally want a safety
    ground capable of carrying at least 3 times the current of the heftiest
    connection, to be sure it will make a short and blow a fuse when there is
    a leak.

    Modern signals do away with signal ground, and go for differential signals,
    since these are far less exposed to leakage, deterioration etc.

    -- mrr Who once worked for KPN. They have a grounding fetish.
     
    Morten Reistad, Sep 8, 2011
    #13
  14. Skybuck Flying

    Jasen Betts Guest

    On 2011-09-08, Skybuck Flying <> wrote:

    > My assumption is true.
    >
    > Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding
    > power wall sockets.


    grounding is primarily for safety, if you aren't woried by 240V, you
    needn't worry about the ground either.

    --
    ⚂⚃ 100% natural

    --- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ---
     
    Jasen Betts, Sep 8, 2011
    #14
  15. Skybuck Flying

    SoothSayer Guest

    On 8 Sep 2011 12:55:52 GMT, Jasen Betts <> wrote:

    >On 2011-09-08, Skybuck Flying <> wrote:
    >
    >> My assumption is true.
    >>
    >> Everything should work without ground because not everything has grounding
    >> power wall sockets.

    >
    >grounding is primarily for safety, if you aren't woried by 240V, you
    >needn't worry about the ground either.


    We can only hope that this works. ;-)

    We should encourage him to become an appliance repair person. Just
    have to be sure to check ALL of his work, and have good ventilation in
    the lab for when he fries himself, which shouldn't take very long at all.

    The goddamned cross-posting Usenet retard needs his ass kicked.

    Notice how HE is the one that responds to HIS posts the most. A sad
    little fucktard, he is.
     
    SoothSayer, Sep 8, 2011
    #15
  16. Skybuck Flying

    Dave Platt Guest

    In article <rS_9q.8279$>,
    Nobody > (Revisited) <> wrote:

    >That would actually be a "permanent killfile" for this bozo. I'm tired
    >of constantly adding new usernames to the "Skypuke Flailing" entry.
    >
    >Why did you have to warn him?


    On the off chance that the PC might, at some point in its existence,
    feel remorse for having electrocuted him.

    --
    Dave Platt <> AE6EO
    Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
    I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
    boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
     
    Dave Platt, Sep 8, 2011
    #16
  17. Skybuck Flying

    Quadibloc Guest

    On Sep 7, 3:33 pm, "Skybuck Flying" <>
    wrote:

    > I am starting to suspect "ground" for PC's does more damage than good.
    >
    > Perhaps the "ground" leads to a "backdoor" for electricity to do damage.


    Ground is a very basic concept in electrical circuits.

    Even on a laptop computer, which isn't connected to an external ground
    (like a water pipe), the battery's two terminals, going into the
    computer, define two potentials, one of which is considered to be
    ground.

    This lets the chips on the motherboard send signals directly to each
    other, without having to be converted to light, or going through
    isolating transformers, or whatever. What looks like +5 volts coming
    out of one chip, compared to the voltage on its ground pin, looks like
    +5 volts to all the other chips.

    Of course, ground can have its risks. It can be a doorway to damage
    when one part of a circuit is solidly grounded, and another part that
    should be grounded the same way is not.

    If something is electrically isolated, and comes in contact with one
    external source of voltage, then its own potential will simply rise to
    that voltage level with virtually no flow of current. This is why you
    don't want to turn on the lights when your feet are wet.

    If you want to make current flow within a circuit, you need to have
    inputs at different voltage levels to that circuit. If the ground
    level is the same everywhere, this prevents voltage differences from
    accidentally becoming larger than were planned. It's when contact is
    possible with a single voltage that doesn't belong is possible that
    not being grounded - but instead being able to float to match that one
    voltage - can give protection.

    So how grounding versus isolation are applied to a circuit can be
    considered in terms of which types of short circuit are more likely,
    and which types of short circuit would have more serious consequences.
    It isn't necessarily a good idea, for example, to take a computer or a
    radio, and protect its delicate circuitry by letting its internal
    ground float, so that a short from the high voltage in the power
    supply won't damage the circuitry... until somebody touches the unit
    and gets electrocuted.

    John Savard
     
    Quadibloc, Sep 10, 2011
    #17
  18. The "ground does damage theory" of mine can be safely dismissed.

    The power extension cord and box which was used was examined by me and
    opened.

    There was a bit of dust in it indeed, maybe it caused a short circuit but I
    don't think so.

    The power box extension did not have a ground wire.

    The ground pins were connected to the power plug itself.

    So I don't see how the electricity of the power wall socket could have
    entered the ground wire and reach the PC.

    It seems impossible.

    Therefore I do not believe the PC was damage via the ground connection,
    because the connection did not really exist.

    This only leaves the "power fluctuation/spark" theory or age of power
    supply.

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Sep 10, 2011
    #18
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