Apple does listen

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
    of this analysis is wrong, though.

    <http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_quietly_brings_save_as_back_in
    _mountain_lion/>

    Apple Quietly Brings ŒSave As¹ Back in Mountain Lion
    Apple is bringing back the ³Save As² feature in Mountain Lion, though it
    will only be available as keyboard command, rather than a menu item.
    Cult-of-Mac reported that developer documentation in OS X 10.8 ³Mountain
    Lion² lists a command for ³Save As,² which was removed in OS X 10.7 ³Lion²
    to much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    History
    Apple¹s decision to remove ³Save As² in Lion was truly a perplexing one
    from the standpoint of long-time Mac and PC users, where saving your
    current document with a new name and/or location can be a common task. It
    was seen as part of the ³iOS-ification² of OS X, and was related to
    Sandboxing, Apple¹s Versions technology, and a general move towards hiding
    the file system from Mac users the same way it is hidden from iOS users.

    Which is where part of the above-mentioned wailing and gnashing came in, as
    there is a sizable chunk of Apple¹s Mac customer base which is just fine
    with being able to access the file system, thank you very much. Note that
    there is another sizable chunk that are blissfully ignorant and are just as
    happy to remain that way, and they¹ll thank you very much, too.

    Risking the Deep End
    To dip our metaphorical toes into the mixed-metaphor of the nitty-gritty,
    Apple began a significant shift towards Sandboxing software in Lion.
    Sandboxing is the name of the concept of applications being isolated from
    one another, and to a certain extent, from the operating system itself. It
    makes software both more robust and more secure, but it can also have the
    side effect of making software less useful, or at least less user-oriented.

    Note that many third party applications still include ³Save As² as an
    option in Lion, but that Apple¹s own software does not. There is a
    ³Duplicate² command, but no ³Save As.²

    As part of this Sandboxing effort, Apple wants documents to belong to the
    software that created them, much like is the case in iOS. One benefit of
    doing so is that it enabled Apple to let us have access to past versions of
    that document‹hence the feature called ³Versions²‹almost like a mini-Time
    Machine specific to each application. From the outside, it seemed that such
    niceties as ³Save As² were acceptable sacrifices in the march towards
    Sandboxing.

    Sweet Succor
    If current documentation in developer releases of Mountain Lion are any
    indication, Apple has capitulated (somewhat) on this issue. As noted by
    Cult-of-Mac, there is a keyboard command for ³Save As² listed under the
    documentation for ³Auto Save.²

    Mountain Lion ³Auto Save² Documentation
    Image Credit: Cult-of-Mac

    This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
    document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
    able to do on a computer.

    At the same time, we should note that as it is currently documented, the
    ³Save As² command will not be available in a menu by default. One supposes
    that developers could artificially include it in a menu, but it will
    otherwise be a semi-secret known only to power users whispering feverishly
    to one another about the wonders of having a modicum of control over one¹s
    files.

    -- 
    Velveeta is to American cheese as American cheese is to cheese.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012
    #1
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  2. Michelle Steiner

    Bread Guest

    Thanks for the pointer, Michelle

    On 2012-06-13 23:50:54 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

    > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
    > of this analysis is wrong, though.
    >
    > <http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_quietly_brings_save_as_back_in
    > _mountain_lion/>
    >
    > Apple Quietly Brings ŒSave As¹ Back in Mountain Lion
    > If current documentation in developer releases of Mountain Lion are any
    > indication, Apple has capitulated (somewhat) on this issue. As noted by
    > Cult-of-Mac, there is a keyboard command for ³Save As² listed under the
    > documentation for ³Auto Save.²


    Aside from the fact that the only apps I've ever seen so far which
    actually use Lion's "duplicate" and auto-save and Versions are Pages
    and Numbers (so this is, as far as I can tell, a lot less of an issue
    than some of us like to make it -- it really annoys me because I
    actually use those two programs pretty constantly) - the thing is that
    adding a super-secret hidden keyboard shortcut to get this is kind of
    silly.

    I mean, we have Duplicate. It's not precisely the same thing. You
    have to Duplicate and then Save…

    Apple could really have just left Save As in place because after you
    Duplicate, the first Save brings up exactly the same "never been saved
    before" dialog box which is identical to the "save as…" box (minus the
    various export options which are generally now, more sensibly, under
    Export…)

    I think the problem is really that the effort to make versioning,
    auto-save, saving in general, something that users just don't have to
    think about (a) underestimates users; and (b) underestimates the
    complexity of managing versions. Things need to be as simple as
    possible but no simpler. Apple has gone for simpler than possible and
    in the process this has led to things like it not being obvious what
    happens to past versions of a file once you move it (but only to a
    different filesystem). And things like quitting an app with a document
    which has been changed be a silent event (rather than at least offering
    us the option to have the app bug us by asking if we want the changes
    explicitly saved -- because there *is* a difference between an
    auto-save version and an explicitly saved version).

    I give Apple credit for trying this. It's an important step in a good
    direction - people do suck at remembering to save files often enough,
    at keeping backups of previous versions, etc. But this is really still
    just a first pass at it and I hope they can improve it a whole lot.

    Just adding back a secret hidden "save as" is pretty lame, but at least
    it's an acknowledgement that their new paradigm isn't quite working for
    everyone.

    I look forward to this whole thing improving and I actually expect
    iCloud to be a part of that, though so far, I'm kind of skeptical. In
    the comments attached to the article Michelle linked to, there was
    discussion of workflows and the fact that people often group files by
    project rather than by the application which created them. iOS doesn't
    allow this, but it's an essential thing for most professional work, and
    any evolution of the system - including if they want iCloud to be taken
    seriously for documents - will have to allow for this. We'll see.

    Seriously, though - are there any other apps out there using
    Versions/AutoSave besides Apple's? Certainly not Word or Excel (which,
    I suspect, outside of Apple's own apps and perhaps web browsers are
    probably the most widely used Mac apps). Maybe others are using it and
    I just never noticed? (And I'm not talking about apps like Quicken or
    Filemaker which have always saved changes as you made them and never
    required the user to hit "Save")
     
    Bread, Jun 14, 2012
    #2
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  3. Michelle Steiner

    nospam Guest

    In article <-september.org>,
    Michelle Steiner <> wrote:

    > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
    > of this analysis is wrong, though.


    what part?

    ...snip..

    > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
    > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
    > able to do on a computer.


    what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

    > At the same time, we should note that as it is currently documented, the
    > ³Save As² command will not be available in a menu by default. One supposes
    > that developers could artificially include it in a menu, but it will
    > otherwise be a semi-secret known only to power users whispering feverishly
    > to one another about the wonders of having a modicum of control over one¹s
    > files.


    more stupidity.
     
    nospam, Jun 14, 2012
    #3
  4. In article <130620122353346430%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > In article <-september.org>,
    > Michelle Steiner <> wrote:
    >
    > > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
    > > of this analysis is wrong, though.

    >
    > what part?
    >
    > ..snip..
    >
    > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
    > > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
    > > able to do on a computer.

    >
    > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.


    Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
    use that?

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
     
    Barry Margolin, Jun 14, 2012
    #4
  5. In article <130620122353346430%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that
    > > some of this analysis is wrong, though.

    >
    > what part?


    Pretty much all of their reasoning as to Apple's motives. It's almost as
    if Mezei wrote it.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012
    #5
  6. In article <-september.org>,
    Barry Margolin <> wrote:

    > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
    > > > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should
    > > > be
    > > > able to do on a computer.

    > >
    > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

    >
    > Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
    > use that?


    Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate command.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012
    #6
  7. Michelle Steiner

    nospam Guest

    In article <-september.org>,
    Michelle Steiner <> wrote:

    > > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to,
    > > > > ³save a document using a different name and location.² You know, like
    > > > > you should be able to do on a computer.
    > > >
    > > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

    > >
    > > Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
    > > use that?

    >
    > Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate command.


    i guess they spell duplicate differently in cupertino than in the rest
    of the world.

    why not command-shift-d? that does not appear to be used in text edit,
    so it wouldn't conflict with anything, and it even begins with the same
    letter as its function.

    or better yet, command-d which has been duplicate in finder since
    forever?
     
    nospam, Jun 14, 2012
    #7
  8. In article <140620120055067967%>, nospam
    <> wrote:
    > In article <-september.org>,
    > Michelle Steiner <> wrote:
    > > > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to,
    > > > > > ³save a document using a different name and location.² You know, like
    > > > > > you should be able to do on a computer.
    > > > >
    > > > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > > > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.
    > > >
    > > > Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
    > > > use that?

    > >
    > > Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate command.

    >
    > i guess they spell duplicate differently in cupertino than in the rest
    > of the world.
    >
    > why not command-shift-d? that does not appear to be used in text edit,
    > so it wouldn't conflict with anything, and it even begins with the same
    > letter as its function.
    >
    > or better yet, command-d which has been duplicate in finder since
    > forever?


    Very few keyboard shortcuts actually match the function alphabetically.
    Cut (Command-X), Paste (Command-V), and Close (Command-W) being the most
    obvious.

    Helpful Harry :eek:)
     
    Helpful Harry, Jun 14, 2012
    #8
  9. In article <130620122353346430%>, nospam
    <> wrote:

    > In article <-september.org>,
    > Michelle Steiner <> wrote:
    >
    > > You wanted Save As to be brought back; Apple listened. I believe that some
    > > of this analysis is wrong, though.

    >
    > what part?
    >
    > ..snip..
    >
    > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
    > > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should be
    > > able to do on a computer.

    >
    > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.


    Unless you've had some fingers amputated, it's fairly easy to press that
    combination with one hand.

    Helpful Harry :eek:)
     
    Helpful Harry, Jun 14, 2012
    #9
  10. Michelle Steiner

    Tim Streater Guest

    In article <-september.org>,
    Michelle Steiner <> wrote:

    > This keyboard command—Command-Shift-Option-S—will allow users to, “save a
    > document using a different name and location.†You know, like you should be
    > able to do on a computer.


    Eh? You mean I have to press both command-keys?

    --
    Tim

    "That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
    nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
     
    Tim Streater, Jun 14, 2012
    #10
  11. Michelle Steiner

    David Empson Guest

    Tim Streater <> wrote:

    > In article <-september.org>,
    > Michelle Steiner <> wrote:
    >
    > > This keyboard command—Command-Shift-Option-S—will allow users to, "save a
    > > document using a different name and location." You know, like you should be
    > > able to do on a computer.

    >
    > Eh? You mean I have to press both command-keys?


    No. According to

    http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html

    the keyboard shortcut is Command-Shift-Option-S.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jun 14, 2012
    #11
  12. In article <>,
    Tim Streater <> wrote:

    > In article <-september.org>,
    > Michelle Steiner <> wrote:
    >
    > > This keyboard command—Command-Shift-Option-S—will allow users to,
    > > “save a
    > > document using a different name and location.†You know, like you should
    > > be
    > > able to do on a computer.

    >
    > Eh? You mean I have to press both command-keys?


    No. They simply forgot to put spaces around the dashes in the sentence.
    It should read:

    This keyboard command -- Command-Shift-Option-S -- will allow users ...

    It seemed pretty obvious to me, since the sentence doesn't parse the
    other way. "This keyboard <sequence>" doesn't make sense without a word
    like "command" or "shortcut" after "keyboard", and treating the dashes
    as hyphens means you should also conclude that "will" was part of the
    keyboard shortcut.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
     
    Barry Margolin, Jun 14, 2012
    #12
  13. In article
    <>,
    (Helpful Harry) wrote:

    > In article <140620120055067967%>, nospam
    > <> wrote:
    > > In article <-september.org>,
    > > Michelle Steiner <> wrote:
    > > > > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to,
    > > > > > > ³save a document using a different name and location.² You know,
    > > > > > > like
    > > > > > > you should be able to do on a computer.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > > > > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.
    > > > >
    > > > > Save-As already has a standard keyboard command: Cmd-Shift-S. Why not
    > > > > use that?
    > > >
    > > > Because they're going to be using Command-Shift-S for the Duplicate
    > > > command.

    > >
    > > i guess they spell duplicate differently in cupertino than in the rest
    > > of the world.
    > >
    > > why not command-shift-d? that does not appear to be used in text edit,
    > > so it wouldn't conflict with anything, and it even begins with the same
    > > letter as its function.
    > >
    > > or better yet, command-d which has been duplicate in finder since
    > > forever?

    >
    > Very few keyboard shortcuts actually match the function alphabetically.
    > Cut (Command-X), Paste (Command-V), and Close (Command-W) being the most
    > obvious.


    The mnemonics aren't always based on the alphabet -- there are too many
    words that begin with the same letter to make this always possible. XCV
    predates Apple by many years, I think it was used in 1970's word
    processors. I suspect it's is based on proofreader/editor markup: words
    to be removed were X'ed out, and insertions were marked by writing the
    new word above the sentence, with a V-shaped notation pointing where it
    belongs.

    My guess is that the W in Cmd-W stands for "window", since Cmd-C was
    already taken.

    But if the letter IS available, it should be used. Cmd-D is already
    used for Duplicate in the Finder, so it can be used in other apps;
    however, some that don't already have a Duplicate command might have
    used it for something else (e.g. MT-Newswatcher uses Cmd-D to send the
    message), so maybe Apple didn't want to usurp this for a standard
    shortcut.

    So it looks like they moved Cmd-Shift-S for Duplicate because they
    expected that this would replace Save-As, and now they don't want to
    back out of that change. So they're forced to come up with a new
    sequence for Save-As. Considering that the "Duplicate" paradigm is
    still fairly new, I think they could have undone it without confusing
    too many users.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
     
    Barry Margolin, Jun 14, 2012
    #13
  14. Michelle Steiner

    nospam Guest

    In article
    <>,
    Helpful Harry <> wrote:

    > Very few keyboard shortcuts actually match the function alphabetically.
    > Cut (Command-X), Paste (Command-V), and Close (Command-W) being the most
    > obvious.


    cmd-w is window, and the others are exceptions. they wanted
    undo/cut/copy/paste to be next to each other.

    new, open, save, print, quit, select all, find, minimize and hide all
    use the first letter.
     
    nospam, Jun 14, 2012
    #14
  15. Michelle Steiner

    nospam Guest

    In article
    <>,
    Helpful Harry <> wrote:

    > > > This keyboard command‹Command-Shift-Option-S‹will allow users to, ³save a
    > > > document using a different name and location.² You know, like you should
    > > > be able to do on a computer.

    > >
    > > what were they thinking in picking one of the most obtuse command key
    > > sequences possible? it is *really* hard to invoke.

    >
    > Unless you've had some fingers amputated, it's fairly easy to press that
    > combination with one hand.


    not for me it isn't.
     
    nospam, Jun 14, 2012
    #15
  16. In article <140620121156076240%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > cmd-w is window, and the others are exceptions. they wanted
    > undo/cut/copy/paste to be next to each other.
    >
    > new, open, save, print, quit, select all, find, minimize and hide all
    > use the first letter.


    A bit of history/trivia. Originally, there was no command-key shortcut to
    close a window; you had to click on the close button or choose Close from
    the File menu. Microsoft introduced Command-W with its applications, and
    other companies copied that. Apple eventually gave in and made it standard.

    Similarly, originally, Command-P meant Plain Text, but Microsoft changed it
    to Print, and as with Command-W other companies followed suit, resulting in
    Apple's eventually making it standard.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012
    #16
  17. In article <-september.org>,
    Barry Margolin <> wrote:

    > But if the letter IS available, it should be used. Cmd-D is already
    > used for Duplicate in the Finder, so it can be used in other apps;
    > however, some that don't already have a Duplicate command might have
    > used it for something else (e.g. MT-Newswatcher uses Cmd-D to send the
    > message), so maybe Apple didn't want to usurp this for a standard
    > shortcut.


    My guess is that since Duplicate replaces Save As in the menu, Apple wanted
    to keep the same shortcut, since that's what people were used to. So, they
    used a modification of that for the menuless Save As.

    Oh, by the way, MTNW uses Command-E to send a message. It uses Command-D
    for "Append To".

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012
    #17
  18. Michelle Steiner

    nospam Guest

    In article <-september.org>,
    Michelle Steiner <> wrote:

    > > But if the letter IS available, it should be used. Cmd-D is already
    > > used for Duplicate in the Finder, so it can be used in other apps;
    > > however, some that don't already have a Duplicate command might have
    > > used it for something else (e.g. MT-Newswatcher uses Cmd-D to send the
    > > message), so maybe Apple didn't want to usurp this for a standard
    > > shortcut.

    >
    > My guess is that since Duplicate replaces Save As in the menu, Apple wanted
    > to keep the same shortcut, since that's what people were used to. So, they
    > used a modification of that for the menuless Save As.


    however, duplicate does not do the same thing as save as, so using the
    same command key equivalent is at best, confusing.

    > Oh, by the way, MTNW uses Command-E to send a message. It uses Command-D
    > for "Append To".


    duplicate in a newsreader doesn't make sense so there's no problem in
    using cmd-d for something else.
     
    nospam, Jun 14, 2012
    #18
  19. Michelle Steiner

    nospam Guest

    In article <-september.org>,
    Michelle Steiner <> wrote:

    > > cmd-w is window, and the others are exceptions. they wanted
    > > undo/cut/copy/paste to be next to each other.
    > >
    > > new, open, save, print, quit, select all, find, minimize and hide all
    > > use the first letter.

    >
    > A bit of history/trivia. Originally, there was no command-key shortcut to
    > close a window; you had to click on the close button or choose Close from
    > the File menu. Microsoft introduced Command-W with its applications, and
    > other companies copied that. Apple eventually gave in and made it standard.
    >
    > Similarly, originally, Command-P meant Plain Text, but Microsoft changed it
    > to Print, and as with Command-W other companies followed suit, resulting in
    > Apple's eventually making it standard.


    true, but just as with print, plain text begins with p.

    wasn't cmd-b bold, cmd-i italic and cmd-u underline way back when?
    again, logical equivalents.
     
    nospam, Jun 14, 2012
    #19
  20. In article <140620121310374479%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > true, but just as with print, plain text begins with p.


    I wasn't disputing you, just pointing out the history, and incidentally
    showing how Microsoft had influenced the UI.

    > wasn't cmd-b bold, cmd-i italic and cmd-u underline way back when?
    > again, logical equivalents.


    And command-O was outline, command-plus (+) was superscript, and
    command-hyphen/minus (-) was subscript.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 14, 2012
    #20
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