Are the dimensions of these mobos the same?

Discussion in 'Asus' started by Paul, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. Paul

    Paul Guest

    B wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I downloaded the manuals so that I could learn the width and length
    > of three ASUS mobos, if one board has the same dimensoins as another,
    > but it occurred to me that you guys might know already, without having
    > to check..
    >
    > Right now I have am A7M266 but it seems to have failed**
    >
    > A friend who gives me his old hardware has given me
    > an A8N-SLI Deluxe and an A7V600,
    >
    > I could put either of these in the case that now holds the A7M266, if
    > they will fit***, but before I tried, I wanted to measure, or check in
    > the manuals, or ask you. ????
    >
    > ***I figure tha tif the boards are the same dimensions, the mounting
    > screw and plastic post holes and slots will also be in the same
    > places.
    >
    > Thanks a lot
    >
    > **I'm not sure the mobo is broken. Feel free to iIgnore this if it
    > is off topic :) . I was using the computer when all of a sudden the
    > screen image turned to black and it started to restart. A second
    > later it started to restart again, and again and again. I pressed and
    > held the On button and turned the computer off. The power supply
    > case seemed hot but not burning hot and there was a bit of a smell.
    > I let it cool off a couple hours and ran it again. It was fine for a
    > hour and then stopped without trying to restart. I slept and the next
    > day, pushing the ON button wouldn't do anything. I removed the power
    > supply and installed another, brand new one, but still nothing
    > happens when I push the ON button. I opened the old power supply and
    > there is definitely heat damage. Could a bad power supply have
    > ruined the mobo? It's time for an upgrade anyhow, but I'd like
    > to know. If the mobo can be saved, I'd use it for something else.
    >
    > Thanks again.


    ATX motherboards come in standard sizes. Full size is 12"x9.6", while
    microATX is 9.6"x9.6". Now, that being said, the most important thing,
    is whether the I/O area lines up, and whether the screw holes are common.
    You'll find the microATX holes are a subset of the full size holes.
    So generally speaking, you have nothing to worry about there. If
    your computer case could take a full sized 12"x9.6" motherboard,
    you can use another full or you can use a microATX.

    Motherboard makers cheat on the dimensions. The cheaper the motherboard
    gets, the less wide it is. An expensive board might be 9.6" wide,
    while the cheapest of boards might be 7.0" wide. This can cause a problem,
    since the right-most mounting holes would be missing if the motherboard
    is only 7.0" wide. If you were to press on the right-most edge of the
    narrow motherboard, the motherboard would flex a lot. Some users are
    quite irate, when they discover this mechanical shortcoming. To Asus,
    every inch of PCB material counts (they'll chisel off pennies worth
    of material, because they make millions of motherboard). You can always
    make a wedge of some material, to support the weakened area (something
    that doesn't conduct obviously).

    *******

    Before installing the new motherboard, pop out the old I/O plate on
    the computer case. If your friend has given you both the motherboard
    and its accompanying I/O plate, you can snap the new plate in, before
    installing the motherboard. There is no excuse for holding on to the
    I/O plate, since the next new motherboard will have its own custom
    I/O plate. The I/O plate touches some of the connector bodies and
    attempts to drain static discharge or electrical noise that might
    cause emissions to the outside world. Once the I/O plate is there,
    you can then drop the motherboard into place.

    ******

    The power supply could have failed. Some supplies are notorious for
    damaging the motherboard they're connected to (Bestec 250W). At the
    first sign of trouble, you should stop using the supply. Attempting
    to beat on the power button, until all signs of life have disappeared,
    is taking a chance.

    A board like the A7M266 probably leans heavily on the 5V rail. It
    could be that the 5V rail died on the power supply. Since that is
    a relatively old board, it sounds like you did get some good use
    from it.

    I'm surprised that a new supply didn't give some response. On
    some motherboards, if you pushed the power button, the fans
    will "twitch" a little bit. That is a sign that the supply
    started for about 50 milliseconds, and then something shut off
    on overload. No twitching at all implies a different problem.

    Asus motherboards usually have a green LED on the surface of
    the motherboard, and that is tied to +5VSB. The first thing
    you want to do, is connect the new supply, and verify the
    green LED comes on, when you flip the switch on the supply
    itself. Now, when you press the front power button (the "soft"
    ON button), look at the green LED. Does the green LED remain
    steadily lit ? Or does it blink or glitch ? It should remain
    steady at all times if the power supply is happy. You need
    +5VSB to be present, as otherwise the front power switch won't
    be able to do its job. The front power switch is "conditioned"
    by motherboard logic, before being sent to the power supply. That
    motherboard logic runs from +5VSB. And that is why it is important,
    especially with the convenient green LED that Asus provides,
    to verify you're getting +5VSB.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
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  2. B

    B Guest

    Hi,

    I downloaded the manuals so that I could learn the width and length
    of three ASUS mobos, if one board has the same dimensoins as another,
    but it occurred to me that you guys might know already, without having
    to check..

    Right now I have am A7M266 but it seems to have failed**

    A friend who gives me his old hardware has given me
    an A8N-SLI Deluxe and an A7V600,

    I could put either of these in the case that now holds the A7M266, if
    they will fit***, but before I tried, I wanted to measure, or check in
    the manuals, or ask you. ????

    ***I figure tha tif the boards are the same dimensions, the mounting
    screw and plastic post holes and slots will also be in the same
    places.

    Thanks a lot


    **I'm not sure the mobo is broken. Feel free to iIgnore this if it
    is off topic :) . I was using the computer when all of a sudden the
    screen image turned to black and it started to restart. A second
    later it started to restart again, and again and again. I pressed and
    held the On button and turned the computer off. The power supply
    case seemed hot but not burning hot and there was a bit of a smell.
    I let it cool off a couple hours and ran it again. It was fine for a
    hour and then stopped without trying to restart. I slept and the next
    day, pushing the ON button wouldn't do anything. I removed the power
    supply and installed another, brand new one, but still nothing
    happens when I push the ON button. I opened the old power supply and
    there is definitely heat damage. Could a bad power supply have
    ruined the mobo? It's time for an upgrade anyhow, but I'd like
    to know. If the mobo can be saved, I'd use it for something else.


    Thanks again.
     
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  3. mm

    mm Guest

    On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:16:34 -0500, Paul <> wrote:

    >B wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I downloaded the manuals so that I could learn the width and length
    >> of three ASUS mobos, if one board has the same dimensoins as another,
    >> but it occurred to me that you guys might know already, without having
    >> to check..
    >>
    >> Right now I have am A7M266 but it seems to have failed**
    >>
    >> A friend who gives me his old hardware has given me
    >> an A8N-SLI Deluxe and an A7V600,
    >>
    >> I could put either of these in the case that now holds the A7M266, if
    >> they will fit***, but before I tried, I wanted to measure, or check in
    >> the manuals, or ask you. ????
    >>
    >> ***I figure tha tif the boards are the same dimensions, the mounting
    >> screw and plastic post holes and slots will also be in the same
    >> places.
    >>
    >> Thanks a lot
    >>
    >> **I'm not sure the mobo is broken. Feel free to iIgnore this if it
    >> is off topic :) . I was using the computer when all of a sudden the
    >> screen image turned to black and it started to restart. A second
    >> later it started to restart again, and again and again. I pressed and
    >> held the On button and turned the computer off. The power supply
    >> case seemed hot but not burning hot and there was a bit of a smell.
    >> I let it cool off a couple hours and ran it again. It was fine for a
    >> hour and then stopped without trying to restart. I slept and the next
    >> day, pushing the ON button wouldn't do anything. I removed the power
    >> supply and installed another, brand new one, but still nothing
    >> happens when I push the ON button. I opened the old power supply and
    >> there is definitely heat damage. Could a bad power supply have
    >> ruined the mobo? It's time for an upgrade anyhow, but I'd like
    >> to know. If the mobo can be saved, I'd use it for something else.
    >>
    >> Thanks again.


    Let me say this up front . Thank you for a great answer.

    >ATX motherboards come in standard sizes. Full size is 12"x9.6", while
    >microATX is 9.6"x9.6". Now, that being said, the most important thing,
    >is whether the I/O area lines up, and whether the screw holes are common.
    >You'll find the microATX holes are a subset of the full size holes.
    >So generally speaking, you have nothing to worry about there. If
    >your computer case could take a full sized 12"x9.6" motherboard,
    >you can use another full or you can use a microATX.
    >
    >Motherboard makers cheat on the dimensions. The cheaper the motherboard
    >gets, the less wide it is. An expensive board might be 9.6" wide,
    >while the cheapest of boards might be 7.0" wide. This can cause a problem,
    >since the right-most mounting holes would be missing if the motherboard
    >is only 7.0" wide. If you were to press on the right-most edge of the
    >narrow motherboard, the motherboard would flex a lot. Some users are
    >quite irate, when they discover this mechanical shortcoming. To Asus,
    >every inch of PCB material counts (they'll chisel off pennies worth
    >of material, because they make millions of motherboard). You can always


    I thought ASUS was better than that. Seriously. That's all my friend
    uses and I figured he figured it was hot stuff.

    >make a wedge of some material, to support the weakened area (something
    >that doesn't conduct obviously).


    I did that once. (I had only assembled one before my friend started
    giving me stuff, and I think I used an AT case that I already had with
    a smaller mobo.) I put some styrofoam, or maybe the harder stuff is
    called something else, under the board. It worked fine for years.

    >*******
    >
    >Before installing the new motherboard, pop out the old I/O plate on
    >the computer case. If your friend has given you both the motherboard
    >and its accompanying I/O plate, you can snap the new plate in, before
    >installing the motherboard. There is no excuse for holding on to the
    >I/O plate, since the next new motherboard will have its own custom
    >I/O plate.


    Yes, but despite that, he didnt' give it to me. He's funny that way.
    I'd only built one computer and was very uneasy at first. He wouldn't
    give me the CDs or the manuals for any of the hardware he gave me,
    even when I asked. (I've stopped asking.) Even when he gave me two of
    something so he would have one even if he gave me one. He would say I
    can download everything, but I don't think that's really true. Drivers
    are usually there but some of the special software to do fancy things
    isn't on the web, I'm pretty sure.

    For example, I don't think the ASUS probe software that says how hot
    the mobo is was on the web when I put the current computer together,
    but that might have been the one time he gave me the CD that came with
    the mobo. I stopped using it, but I'm going to try to install it now,
    because i'm a trifle worried about mroe overheating. (The longer I
    waited to post back, the less worried I am.)

    > The I/O plate touches some of the connector bodies and
    >attempts to drain static discharge or electrical noise that might
    >cause emissions to the outside world.


    If I can't buy an i/o plate, maybe I could make something to duplicate
    that part of it. Not pretty so much but at least touching the
    connector body. Does it have to touch them all, or are they all
    grounded together?

    > Once the I/O plate is there,
    >you can then drop the motherboard into place.
    >
    >******
    >
    >The power supply could have failed. Some supplies are notorious for
    >damaging the motherboard they're connected to (Bestec 250W). At the
    >first sign of trouble, you should stop using the supply. Attempting


    Yes, I shoudl have done that. I also should have gone to the doctor
    when I first noticed my hiatal hernia, but I waited 2 years until I
    had to go to the emergency room. It seems I haven't learned much from
    that experience.

    >to beat on the power button, until all signs of life have disappeared,
    >is taking a chance.
    >
    >A board like the A7M266 probably leans heavily on the 5V rail. It
    >could be that the 5V rail died on the power supply. Since that is
    >a relatively old board, it sounds like you did get some good use
    >from it.
    >
    >I'm surprised that a new supply didn't give some response. On


    I too. I thought even damaged it would do a little.

    >some motherboards, if you pushed the power button, the fans
    >will "twitch" a little bit. That is a sign that the supply
    >started for about 50 milliseconds, and then something shut off
    >on overload. No twitching at all implies a different problem.
    >
    >Asus motherboards usually have a green LED on the surface of
    >the motherboard, and that is tied to +5VSB. The first thing
    >you want to do, is connect the new supply, and verify the
    >green LED comes on, when you flip the switch on the supply
    >itself. Now, when you press the front power button (the "soft"
    >ON button), look at the green LED. Does the green LED remain


    The green light was on with the old power supply, but after I read
    this, I coudlnt' remember if it was on with the new power supply. I'd
    already fully connected, then fully disconnected it, so I just plugged
    in the power cord, and yes, the green light was on. Then I noticed
    the breeeze coming from the fan, and then I noticed that the lights in
    the front were on or blinking!!!!

    So I unplugged it, took it upstairs and fully connected it and it
    works!!!! At first I attributed this to one of those flukes that I
    can't account for, but after a few minutes I started to account for
    it. I think earlier in the day I connected everything but the power
    cord. It's the shortest cord, so I save it for last.

    In practice, I almost certainly would have checked one more time
    before starting to take apart the computer, either to replace the mobo
    or to move the harddrive to another setup. My normal, long-time habit
    is to check one more time before disassembling anything. But I've
    made a lot of mistakes lately, and you kept me from making this one.

    >steadily lit ? Or does it blink or glitch ? It should remain
    >steady at all times if the power supply is happy. You need
    >+5VSB to be present, as otherwise the front power switch won't
    >be able to do its job. The front power switch is "conditioned"
    >by motherboard logic, before being sent to the power supply. That
    >motherboard logic runs from +5VSB. And that is why it is important,
    >especially with the convenient green LED that Asus provides,
    >to verify you're getting +5VSB.
    >
    >HTH,


    It helps a lot. Who knows what I really would have done if you hadn't
    reminded me of the green light.

    > Paul


    The only remaining quetion is: The case came with a 450 watt power
    supply, but the largest one I had last night was 275 watts. Is it
    possible everything could work but the CPU fan, or the power supply
    fan or that other little fan? Because the capacity of the pwer
    supply is too low?

    So far everything seems fine, but I haven't used a CD drive, or upped
    the RAM from 1gig to 1.5 gig, which I plan to do if I can get win98SE
    to run with 1.5 gig.

    I looked online at power supplies and one afaict didn't have any of
    the four-pin molex connectors. Is that possible? Maybe they just
    didn't put a picture of them, even though they did have individual
    pictures of a SATA connector and 4 and 8 and 24 pin connectors.)

    Is any 450 or 500 watt ATX power supply going to work for me?

    I"m going to go back to win98 where the ASUS probe works. I had
    stopped running it but will again for a while. I'm looking for the
    installation program, which wasn't on the ASUS download page and is
    probalby on the CD my friend gave me once. I was going to say that it
    probably has a version for XP, but otoh, maybe XP didn't exist then.
    Maybe win2000 did.

    So again, thanks a lot.

    The computer ran very slow when I started it the first time with the
    new power supply. That started me thinking some vottage/maximum
    amperage was too low. The inactive desktop had changed to active for
    some reason, or vice versa, and just changing windows took 2 seconds.
    I restarted and it was just as slow, but restarting again put it back
    to normal. Go figure.
     
  4. Paul

    Paul Guest

    mm wrote:

    >
    > It helps a lot. Who knows what I really would have done if you hadn't
    > reminded me of the green light.
    >
    > The only remaining quetion is: The case came with a 450 watt power
    > supply, but the largest one I had last night was 275 watts. Is it
    > possible everything could work but the CPU fan, or the power supply
    > fan or that other little fan? Because the capacity of the pwer
    > supply is too low?
    >
    > So far everything seems fine, but I haven't used a CD drive, or upped
    > the RAM from 1gig to 1.5 gig, which I plan to do if I can get win98SE
    > to run with 1.5 gig.
    >
    > I looked online at power supplies and one afaict didn't have any of
    > the four-pin molex connectors. Is that possible? Maybe they just
    > didn't put a picture of them, even though they did have individual
    > pictures of a SATA connector and 4 and 8 and 24 pin connectors.)
    >
    > Is any 450 or 500 watt ATX power supply going to work for me?
    >
    > I"m going to go back to win98 where the ASUS probe works. I had
    > stopped running it but will again for a while. I'm looking for the
    > installation program, which wasn't on the ASUS download page and is
    > probalby on the CD my friend gave me once. I was going to say that it
    > probably has a version for XP, but otoh, maybe XP didn't exist then.
    > Maybe win2000 did.
    >
    > So again, thanks a lot.
    >
    > The computer ran very slow when I started it the first time with the
    > new power supply. That started me thinking some vottage/maximum
    > amperage was too low. The inactive desktop had changed to active for
    > some reason, or vice versa, and just changing windows took 2 seconds.
    > I restarted and it was just as slow, but restarting again put it back
    > to normal. Go figure.


    Computers were meant to be mysterious. I don't know why the speed would
    change after a couple reboots.

    Well, tonight I'm on ADSL again, instead of dialup. So I can take a
    look at an A7M266 manual.

    ftp://ftp.asus.com.tw/pub/asus/mb/socka/amd760/a7m266/a7m266-104.pdf

    You'd probably need 65W for the processor. I have a table of power
    numbers for S462 processors, but that is a nice round number to start
    with.

    The board has two RAM slots, and this example of DDR is rated at
    4.4W per stick.

    http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR266X64C25_512.pdf

    The picture of the A7M266 shows very little in the way of heatsinks
    on the chipset, so the motherboard itself probably doesn't draw
    much power. My guesstimate for system power is about 120W + video_card,
    and a non-gamer video card of that generation would be in the 35W range.

    Most of your power consumption will be from the lower voltage
    rails of the power supply. +12V won't have much of a load on it.
    (2.6A minimum.) If we take 65W from the 5V rail for the processor,
    that is 5V at 13A. Again, not a problem for most power supplies
    today. Where the load would become more significant, would be
    if you had the A7M266-D (dual S462) board, as then the load is
    up to the limits of the main power cable amperage rating.

    So, take a look again at the 275W supply. Chances are, it has
    enough total watts for the job. You'd need to check the
    ratings of each rail, like seeing whether the 5V rail has at
    least 13A. The 3.3V and 5V have a "combined power rating", but
    I don't have a number I'd trust for the 3.3V load. The video
    card might use 6A from 3.3V, and the chipset on the motherboard
    probably uses a bit. And the power for the DIMMs has to come
    from somewhere (that could be another 3 amps). I think there
    is a fair chance the 275W could work.

    If you know the make and model of the supply, or ideally,
    if you can find a picture of the label with the ratings printed
    on it, I could take a look at it. All the numbers on the label
    mean something, which is why it is easier to just find a picture,
    rather than you wasting a lot of time copying all that info into
    a post.

    Your AGP slot goes up to AGP 4X, so I suppose you could have added
    a very hot video card to the system. That could make some difference
    to the power picture.

    If you want to move up to a 400W or 500W supply, there should be
    no problem. What you want to do though, is search for something
    with better 3.3V and 5V ratings, as those are going to be doing the
    work for you. The thing is, modern systems load 12V a lot more than
    anything else. There are some high efficiency modern supplies with
    anemic 3.3V and 5V ratings. So I'd look for something with a little
    more beef in that area.

    My current supply, is a bridge between the old and the new.
    (You can't buy it now by the way, so there is no point in naming it.)
    It has 3.3V @ 30A, 5V @ 30A, 12V1 @ 22A, 12V2 @ 20A. If you were to
    total up all the volts times amps, it comes out to more than
    the 460W total rating. The idea behind supplies like that, is
    usually only one rail is heavily loaded. That supply can be
    used with older systems (like my A7N8X S462 board), as it has
    good strong 3.3V and 5V. And it also works on my current
    Core2 system, where the 12V rail is the one that gets loaded.
    I could probably even handle a high end PCI Express
    video card on that power supply, without too much complaint.
    But that supply isn't typical of what is on the market today.
    You might find 3.3V @ 20A and 5V @ 20A, which doesn't leave
    quite as much margin. You know you're using maybe 13A on
    5V for the processor, 1A for hard drive, 1.5A for CDROM,
    and perhaps an unknown amount for the motherboard. That is
    getting pretty close to the 20A number.

    As an example, the specs on this one are good (as specs go),
    but there are a few too many DOAs reported in the customer
    reviews. +3.3V @ 32A, +5V @ 34A, +12V1 @ 16A, +12V2 @ 17A.
    That makes it a nice multi-generation supply. If you're on a
    budget, you could play "wheel of fortune" and see if they
    ship you a dead one.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339019

    This one is a lot more expensive, but I bet this will be working
    next year. +3.3V @ 30A, +5V @ 30A, +12V1 @ 18A, +12V2 @ 18A
    Reviews look better. The only thing to watch with Fortron FSP
    supplies, is to check the cables it comes with are long
    enough. On their cheaper supplies, they skimp on wire.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104034

    *******

    With regard to the I/O plate, you don't absolutely need it.
    It isn't worth the time to try to fake one either, as you
    won't be able to get the right "springy" metal to make one.
    I wouldn't worry about it.

    When I was using Win98SE, the limit I heard was 1GB total. There are
    two settings you can use, to tune for a stable system. The first
    one, fixed an address space limitation in Windows. Limiting
    the vcache, prevents the system from running out of address
    space. Units are bytes and the number is decimal. The second
    one, is when there is too much RAM physically installed
    in the computer. I used that on my current computer, which
    has 2GB total RAM. By setting MaxPhysPage to a hexadecimal
    number, you limit the visible memory. If you stay at 1GB,
    you probably don't need to add that setting to "system.ini".

    [vcache]
    MaxFileCache=524288 (or a lesser number if you want)

    [386enh]
    MaxPhysPage=40000 (limits physical RAM reported to Win98 to 1GB.
    The last time I tried this, I used 20000 just
    to remain safe.)

    Paul
     
  5. mm

    mm Guest

    On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:21:33 -0500, Paul <> wrote:

    >
    >As an example, the specs on this one are good (as specs go),
    >but there are a few too many DOAs reported in the customer
    >reviews. +3.3V @ 32A, +5V @ 34A, +12V1 @ 16A, +12V2 @ 17A.
    >That makes it a nice multi-generation supply. If you're on a
    >budget, you could play "wheel of fortune" and see if they
    >ship you a dead one.
    >
    >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339019
    >
    >This one is a lot more expensive, but I bet this will be working
    >next year. +3.3V @ 30A, +5V @ 30A, +12V1 @ 18A, +12V2 @ 18A
    >Reviews look better. The only thing to watch with Fortron FSP
    >supplies, is to check the cables it comes with are long
    >enough. On their cheaper supplies, they skimp on wire.
    >
    >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104034


    I notice that my PSU that burned out and all the others I have has a
    -5v output.

    And one of the pins on my A7M266 currently in use expects -5v. Also
    the A7V600 and A8N-SLI Deluxe that I plan to use.

    But there is no -5v listed on either of these new ones.
    Does that mean it's really not there? Or it doesn't really matter if
    it's there or not?

    Here, next to -5 V, it says n/a
    http://hecgroupusa.com/products/switching-power-supply/atx-12v/hp485d/

    Is this a problem?

    I guess you would have noticed, it it were, but....
     
  6. Paul

    Paul Guest

    mm wrote:
    > On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:21:33 -0500, Paul <> wrote:
    >
    >> As an example, the specs on this one are good (as specs go),
    >> but there are a few too many DOAs reported in the customer
    >> reviews. +3.3V @ 32A, +5V @ 34A, +12V1 @ 16A, +12V2 @ 17A.
    >> That makes it a nice multi-generation supply. If you're on a
    >> budget, you could play "wheel of fortune" and see if they
    >> ship you a dead one.
    >>
    >> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339019
    >>
    >> This one is a lot more expensive, but I bet this will be working
    >> next year. +3.3V @ 30A, +5V @ 30A, +12V1 @ 18A, +12V2 @ 18A
    >> Reviews look better. The only thing to watch with Fortron FSP
    >> supplies, is to check the cables it comes with are long
    >> enough. On their cheaper supplies, they skimp on wire.
    >>
    >> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104034

    >
    > I notice that my PSU that burned out and all the others I have has a
    > -5v output.
    >
    > And one of the pins on my A7M266 currently in use expects -5v. Also
    > the A7V600 and A8N-SLI Deluxe that I plan to use.
    >
    > But there is no -5v listed on either of these new ones.
    > Does that mean it's really not there? Or it doesn't really matter if
    > it's there or not?
    >
    > Here, next to -5 V, it says n/a
    > http://hecgroupusa.com/products/switching-power-supply/atx-12v/hp485d/
    >
    > Is this a problem?
    >
    > I guess you would have noticed, it it were, but....


    Ouch. I missed that.

    The standards removed that some time ago. The first link, is from about
    the year 2000, and the -5V is still present there. The second is Apr.2003
    and they removed -5V in that one. The A7M266 could be from 2001 or so, so
    it is in between those two dates.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20030424...org/developer/specs/atx/ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf (page 27)

    http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX12V_1_3dg.pdf (page 30)

    http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf (page 37)

    I don't know of a good way to predict what will happen, if you connect
    a supply with no -5V on it. It is possible the board won't start.

    Even if you had a working setup, and attempted to measure the current flow
    on -5V, it might not be conclusive as to whether the board was actually
    using it or not. For example, a board not using it, may still choose to
    connect the voltage monitor chip to -5V and take readings from it. The
    current flow in that case would be a tiny one, and you wouldn't know,
    short of testing it, whether the board would actually gate off POWER_GOOD
    using the status of that signal or not.

    If you purchased a 20 pin extension cable, opened the -5V wire by cutting
    it in two, you'd have a way to convert your existing power supply with -5V,
    into a newer supply without -5V. But that would likely cost you $10, to buy
    a power supply extension cable for testing purposes.

    There is no indication in the vip.asus.com forum, that the board has a
    -5V dependency. One person asks the question, but nobody answered. And
    there is no account of someone buying a new power supply, and their
    A7M266 didn't start or anything.

    http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=1&model=A7M266&SLanguage=en-us

    You can still find power supplies with -5V, but the reviews on this one
    aren't the best. +3.3 @ 35A, +5V @ 46A, +12 @ 26A, -12V @ 0.8A, -5 @ 1A, +5VSB @ 2A
    The specs look nice. The power rating obviously isn't 630W, as it is only $26.
    It is just a 350/400W with imaginative overall power rating.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817165004

    It is also possible for a person to add a -5V signal to the connector.
    You can get a 7905 regulator, and use that to create a -5V regulated
    power signal. The hardest part would be finding a crimp pin to add
    to the main ATX power connector. This chip can take -12V and make
    -5V from it. You wouldn't want to actually supply a lot of current
    with this idea. It would be for a motherboard that wouldn't start,
    unless it got a few milliamps on -5V. For serious power output,
    the TO220 case should have a heatsink added to it. The heatsink
    will cost a lot more than the 7905 will.

    http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM7905.pdf

    Motherboards shouldn't really be relying on that signal, but you
    will find cases of certain models that won't start unless -5V
    is present. And there is no single web page, with a list
    of what boards have that dependency.

    Paul
     
  7. mm

    mm Guest

    On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:21:33 -0500, Paul <> wrote:

    >mm wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> It helps a lot. Who knows what I really would have done if you hadn't
    >> reminded me of the green light.
    >>
    >> The only remaining quetion is: The case came with a 450 watt power
    >> supply, but the largest one I had last night was 275 watts. Is it
    >> possible everything could work but the CPU fan, or the power supply
    >> fan or that other little fan? Because the capacity of the pwer
    >> supply is too low?
    >>
    >> So far everything seems fine, but I haven't used a CD drive, or upped
    >> the RAM from 1gig to 1.5 gig, which I plan to do if I can get win98SE
    >> to run with 1.5 gig.
    >>
    >> I looked online at power supplies and one afaict didn't have any of
    >> the four-pin molex connectors. Is that possible? Maybe they just
    >> didn't put a picture of them, even though they did have individual
    >> pictures of a SATA connector and 4 and 8 and 24 pin connectors.)
    >>
    >> Is any 450 or 500 watt ATX power supply going to work for me?
    >>
    >> I"m going to go back to win98 where the ASUS probe works. I had
    >> stopped running it but will again for a while. I'm looking for the
    >> installation program, which wasn't on the ASUS download page and is
    >> probalby on the CD my friend gave me once. I was going to say that it
    >> probably has a version for XP, but otoh, maybe XP didn't exist then.
    >> Maybe win2000 did.
    >>
    >> So again, thanks a lot.
    >>
    >> The computer ran very slow when I started it the first time with the
    >> new power supply. That started me thinking some vottage/maximum
    >> amperage was too low. The inactive desktop had changed to active for
    >> some reason, or vice versa, and just changing windows took 2 seconds.
    >> I restarted and it was just as slow, but restarting again put it back
    >> to normal. Go figure.

    >
    >Computers were meant to be mysterious. I don't know why the speed would
    >change after a couple reboots.




    >Well, tonight I'm on ADSL again, instead of dialup. So I can take a
    >look at an A7M266 manual.
    >
    >ftp://ftp.asus.com.tw/pub/asus/mb/socka/amd760/a7m266/a7m266-104.pdf
    >
    >You'd probably need 65W for the processor. I have a table of power
    >numbers for S462 processors, but that is a nice round number to start
    >with.
    >
    >The board has two RAM slots, and this example of DDR is rated at
    >4.4W per stick.
    >
    >http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR266X64C25_512.pdf
    >
    >The picture of the A7M266 shows very little in the way of heatsinks
    >on the chipset,


    That's right, not much in the way of heatsinks..

    > so the motherboard itself probably doesn't draw
    >much power.


    Aha, that makes sense.

    > My guesstimate for system power is about 120W + video_card,
    >and a non-gamer video card of that generation would be in the 35W range.


    Yes, I'm a non-gamer.

    >Most of your power consumption will be from the lower voltage
    >rails of the power supply. +12V won't have much of a load on it.
    >(2.6A minimum.) If we take 65W from the 5V rail for the processor,
    >that is 5V at 13A. Again, not a problem for most power supplies
    >today. Where the load would become more significant, would be
    >if you had the A7M266-D (dual S462) board, as then the load is
    >up to the limits of the main power cable amperage rating.


    No, no dual.

    >So, take a look again at the 275W supply. Chances are, it has
    >enough total watts for the job. You'd need to check the
    >ratings of each rail, like seeing whether the 5V rail has at
    >least 13A. The 3.3V and 5V have a "combined power rating", but


    [Do this.]

    >I don't have a number I'd trust for the 3.3V load. The video
    >card might use 6A from 3.3V, and the chipset on the motherboard
    >probably uses a bit. And the power for the DIMMs has to come
    >from somewhere (that could be another 3 amps). I think there
    >is a fair chance the 275W could work.
    >
    >If you know the make and model of the supply, or ideally,
    >if you can find a picture of the label with the ratings printed
    >on it, I could take a look at it. All the numbers on the label
    >mean something, which is why it is easier to just find a picture,
    >rather than you wasting a lot of time copying all that info into
    >a post.
    >
    >Your AGP slot goes up to AGP 4X, so I suppose you could have added
    >a very hot video card to the system. That could make some difference
    >to the power picture.


    I just got a newer card. In order to run Google Earth, which requires
    3D. A Radeon 7000 AGP with 64 meg. (Also, now I can use standby and
    hibernate.)

    >If you want to move up to a 400W or 500W supply, there should be
    >no problem. What you want to do though, is search for something
    >with better 3.3V and 5V ratings, as those are going to be doing the
    >work for you. The thing is, modern systems load 12V a lot more than
    >anything else. There are some high efficiency modern supplies with
    >anemic 3.3V and 5V ratings. So I'd look for something with a little
    >more beef in that area.
    >
    >My current supply, is a bridge between the old and the new.
    >(You can't buy it now by the way, so there is no point in naming it.)
    >It has 3.3V @ 30A, 5V @ 30A, 12V1 @ 22A, 12V2 @ 20A. If you were to
    >total up all the volts times amps, it comes out to more than
    >the 460W total rating. The idea behind supplies like that, is
    >usually only one rail is heavily loaded. That supply can be
    >used with older systems (like my A7N8X S462 board), as it has
    >good strong 3.3V and 5V. And it also works on my current
    >Core2 system, where the 12V rail is the one that gets loaded.
    >I could probably even handle a high end PCI Express
    >video card on that power supply, without too much complaint.
    >But that supply isn't typical of what is on the market today.
    >You might find 3.3V @ 20A and 5V @ 20A, which doesn't leave
    >quite as much margin. You know you're using maybe 13A on
    >5V for the processor, 1A for hard drive, 1.5A for CDROM,
    >and perhaps an unknown amount for the motherboard. That is
    >getting pretty close to the 20A number.


    Very interesting. This is all starting to make sense.

    >As an example, the specs on this one are good (as specs go),
    >but there are a few too many DOAs reported in the customer
    >reviews. +3.3V @ 32A, +5V @ 34A, +12V1 @ 16A, +12V2 @ 17A.
    >That makes it a nice multi-generation supply. If you're on a
    >budget, you could play "wheel of fortune" and see if they
    >ship you a dead one.


    >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339019


    That is cheap. They say the sale ends today.

    Oh, I only read the overview and it sounded good. Then I clicked on
    Customer Reviews and 2 out of 3 were terrible, one star out of 5.

    But they says 69% of 121 gave it 5 stars. And only 14% gave it 1, 2,
    or 3 stars. I'm always optimistic about stuff like this. I think
    I got burned once in the last couple years but I can't remember.

    Interesting place. Apparently it was once 20 dollars but now it is up
    to 27. That's fine. That's the right way to do business.

    I bought one. Less for this mobo and more for the newer one that
    requires a 24 pin connector. I don't have a power supply with that.

    I'll see about the 5 volts later. Thanks for the link.

    >This one is a lot more expensive, but I bet this will be working
    >next year. +3.3V @ 30A, +5V @ 30A, +12V1 @ 18A, +12V2 @ 18A
    >Reviews look better. The only thing to watch with Fortron FSP
    >supplies, is to check the cables it comes with are long
    >enough. On their cheaper supplies, they skimp on wire.
    >
    >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104034


    No rush to spend this amount of money

    I don't have to assemble the new computer today, like I thought I
    might.

    But last night I went back to win98 and tried out Asus Probe, and it
    was still working. There was no setup file for winXP so I googled for
    it and found it on Softpedia. So I installed it in XP and it looks
    the same and gives the same readings. It shows

    12 volts = 12.038 volts
    5 volts = 4.999 volts
    3.3 volts = 3.312 volts
    Vcore = 1.776 volts

    Not sure about the last one but the first three seem good to me. They
    don't vary at all over the last 10 minutes.

    It shows the CPU fan at 3924 something or other. Its speed varies a
    little bit.

    The power fan and chassis fan are listed as "Monitor Paused!" with
    values listed of zero. I know the power supply fan is blowing air.
    Not sure what the chassis fan is, but there is a thin fan a little
    over 1 inch by 1 inch, 3/8" thick, that is spinning nicely. Other
    than that, I have a 4" fan in the front of the case, but it's plugged
    straight into the power supply and I don't think it can be monitored.

    It says the CPU temperature is 150F and calls that OK.
    It says the Mobo temperature is 84F and calls that OK.
    These temps don't vary over 90 minutes.

    >*******
    >
    >With regard to the I/O plate, you don't absolutely need it.
    >It isn't worth the time to try to fake one either, as you
    >won't be able to get the right "springy" metal to make one.
    >I wouldn't worry about it.


    Okay.

    >When I was using Win98SE, the limit I heard was 1GB total. There are


    Right. That's what I meant. I have 1.5, but I've only plugged 1`gig
    in. Actually it's less important now that I'm mostly in XP, which
    seems to use RAM a lot more efficiently. I run all the same programs
    I ran before, but never have problems like I did in win98SE, where if
    I opened too many tabs in firefox, the text would get bold, and then
    would change alphabets!

    This means I can run Asus Probe too without running out of RAM.

    I didn't find the setup program on my harddrive, but I did find it on
    the web. You all probably know about it, but I'll post it separately,
    for newbies who look at thread names.

    >two settings you can use, to tune for a stable system. The first
    >one, fixed an address space limitation in Windows. Limiting
    >the vcache, prevents the system from running out of address
    >space. Units are bytes and the number is decimal. The second
    >one, is when there is too much RAM physically installed
    >in the computer. I used that on my current computer, which
    >has 2GB total RAM. By setting MaxPhysPage to a hexadecimal
    >number, you limit the visible memory. If you stay at 1GB,
    >you probably don't need to add that setting to "system.ini".
    >
    >[vcache]
    >MaxFileCache=524288 (or a lesser number if you want)
    >
    >[386enh]
    >MaxPhysPage=40000 (limits physical RAM reported to Win98 to 1GB.
    > The last time I tried this, I used 20000 just
    > to remain safe.)


    Your words remind me. I tried these very settings, I think, but maybe
    I did something wrong. I'll try again, unencumbered maybe by something
    that might have led me astray several years ago.

    > Paul


    Thanks again.
     
  8. Mick

    Mick Guest

    "Paul" <> wrote in message
    news:hio17e$b7g$-september.org...
    > mm wrote:
    >> On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:21:33 -0500, Paul <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> As an example, the specs on this one are good (as specs go),
    >>> but there are a few too many DOAs reported in the customer
    >>> reviews. +3.3V @ 32A, +5V @ 34A, +12V1 @ 16A, +12V2 @ 17A.
    >>> That makes it a nice multi-generation supply. If you're on a
    >>> budget, you could play "wheel of fortune" and see if they
    >>> ship you a dead one.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339019
    >>>
    >>> This one is a lot more expensive, but I bet this will be working
    >>> next year. +3.3V @ 30A, +5V @ 30A, +12V1 @ 18A, +12V2 @ 18A
    >>> Reviews look better. The only thing to watch with Fortron FSP
    >>> supplies, is to check the cables it comes with are long
    >>> enough. On their cheaper supplies, they skimp on wire.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104034

    >>
    >> I notice that my PSU that burned out and all the others I have has a
    >> -5v output.
    >>
    >> And one of the pins on my A7M266 currently in use expects -5v. Also
    >> the A7V600 and A8N-SLI Deluxe that I plan to use.
    >>
    >> But there is no -5v listed on either of these new ones.
    >> Does that mean it's really not there? Or it doesn't really matter if
    >> it's there or not?
    >>
    >> Here, next to -5 V, it says n/a
    >> http://hecgroupusa.com/products/switching-power-supply/atx-12v/hp485d/
    >>
    >> Is this a problem?
    >>
    >> I guess you would have noticed, it it were, but....

    >
    > Ouch. I missed that.
    >
    > The standards removed that some time ago. The first link, is from about
    > the year 2000, and the -5V is still present there. The second is Apr.2003
    > and they removed -5V in that one. The A7M266 could be from 2001 or so, so
    > it is in between those two dates.
    >
    > http://web.archive.org/web/20030424...org/developer/specs/atx/ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf
    > (page 27)
    >
    > http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX12V_1_3dg.pdf (page 30)
    >
    > http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
    > (page 37)
    >
    > I don't know of a good way to predict what will happen, if you connect
    > a supply with no -5V on it. It is possible the board won't start.
    >
    > Even if you had a working setup, and attempted to measure the current flow
    > on -5V, it might not be conclusive as to whether the board was actually
    > using it or not. For example, a board not using it, may still choose to
    > connect the voltage monitor chip to -5V and take readings from it. The
    > current flow in that case would be a tiny one, and you wouldn't know,
    > short of testing it, whether the board would actually gate off POWER_GOOD
    > using the status of that signal or not.
    >
    > If you purchased a 20 pin extension cable, opened the -5V wire by cutting
    > it in two, you'd have a way to convert your existing power supply
    > with -5V,
    > into a newer supply without -5V. But that would likely cost you $10, to
    > buy
    > a power supply extension cable for testing purposes.
    >
    > There is no indication in the vip.asus.com forum, that the board has a
    > -5V dependency. One person asks the question, but nobody answered. And
    > there is no account of someone buying a new power supply, and their
    > A7M266 didn't start or anything.
    >
    > http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=1&model=A7M266&SLanguage=en-us
    >
    > You can still find power supplies with -5V, but the reviews on this one
    > aren't the best. +3.3 @ 35A, +5V @ 46A, +12 @ 26A, -12V @ 0.8A, -5 @ 1A,
    > +5VSB @ 2A
    > The specs look nice. The power rating obviously isn't 630W, as it is only
    > $26.
    > It is just a 350/400W with imaginative overall power rating.
    >
    > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817165004
    >
    > It is also possible for a person to add a -5V signal to the connector.
    > You can get a 7905 regulator, and use that to create a -5V regulated
    > power signal. The hardest part would be finding a crimp pin to add
    > to the main ATX power connector. This chip can take -12V and make
    > -5V from it. You wouldn't want to actually supply a lot of current
    > with this idea. It would be for a motherboard that wouldn't start,
    > unless it got a few milliamps on -5V. For serious power output,
    > the TO220 case should have a heatsink added to it. The heatsink
    > will cost a lot more than the 7905 will.
    >
    > http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM7905.pdf
    >
    > Motherboards shouldn't really be relying on that signal, but you
    > will find cases of certain models that won't start unless -5V
    > is present. And there is no single web page, with a list
    > of what boards have that dependency.
    >
    > Paul


    the -5V rail was only required as a bias for ISA slots.
    as no boards since around 2000 have these it is considered obsolete.
    All new boards will start up fine without it
    HTH
     
  9. mm

    mm Guest

    On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 16:10:03 -0500, Paul <> wrote:

    >
    >>> As an example, the specs on this one are good (as specs go),
    >>> but there are a few too many DOAs reported in the customer
    >>> reviews. +3.3V @ 32A, +5V @ 34A, +12V1 @ 16A, +12V2 @ 17A.
    >>> That makes it a nice multi-generation supply. If you're on a
    >>> budget, you could play "wheel of fortune" and see if they
    >>> ship you a dead one.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339019


    Wow. I ordered this one yesterday at 1 PM ET and it's not here yet
    but it's out for deliver since 6AM. The company is in California, and
    I'm in Baltimore so I figured it would take a few days, but they
    shipped it from Edison, New Jersey, which is less than 3 hours away.

    OTOH, they said the sale ended yesterday and maybe it did. Today it's
    a dollar cheaper. :) 26 instead of 27 dollars. People who rated it
    paid from 18 to 20 dollars, but I'm just amused, not complaining.

    I'm really happy it came in a day, with the slowest and free shipping.
    Next time, I will look at what they have first.

    (Those guys work longer than 8 hours I think if they have to, but it's
    7 hours since he got into his truck, so it's bound to be here soon.)


    2 other little thiings. The delivery info is on their own page and
    doesn't say if UPS or Fedex, etc. is doing the delivering.

    It says the billing info was received at 06:06 yesterday, just after
    midnight, but you didn't post about this product until 4:21 yesterday,
    4 hours later, and I didn't actually look at the webpage until 11
    hours later and didn't order anything until 14 hours later. They're
    psychic!! Is this a glitch or do they have some reason for pretending
    they started on my order before they did? With one-day service, why
    would they have to lie, and wouldn't a lot of people notice like I
    just did.
     
  10. Paul

    Paul Guest

    mm wrote:

    > 2 other little thiings. The delivery info is on their own page and
    > doesn't say if UPS or Fedex, etc. is doing the delivering.
    >
    > It says the billing info was received at 06:06 yesterday, just after
    > midnight, but you didn't post about this product until 4:21 yesterday,
    > 4 hours later, and I didn't actually look at the webpage until 11
    > hours later and didn't order anything until 14 hours later. They're
    > psychic!! Is this a glitch or do they have some reason for pretending
    > they started on my order before they did? With one-day service, why
    > would they have to lie, and wouldn't a lot of people notice like I
    > just did.
    >


    Maybe they weren't very good in math in school :) Or it could
    be the brand of time machine they're using.

    Paul
     
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