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conroe challenge

Discussion in 'AMD Overclocking' started by themillman, Jun 10, 2006.

  1. themillman

    themillman Guest

    Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm finding
    the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and overclckng info
    surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what has AMD got lined up to
    counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast market? Conroe is out next
    month and right now AMD does not show great performance gains with AMD2....
     
    themillman, Jun 10, 2006
    #1
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  2. themillman

    Carl Guest

    I use AMD, but I wouldn't be blindly purchasing their products. When I go to
    build a new system. I look for the best performance to price ratio. If this
    means AMD or Intel, so be it - same goes for ATI and Nvidia.
     
    Carl, Jun 11, 2006
    #2
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  3. themillman wrote:
    > Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm finding
    > the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and overclckng info
    > surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what has AMD got lined up to
    > counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast market? Conroe is out next
    > month and right now AMD does not show great performance gains with AMD2....

    Do you know when the conroe will be released?
    Second -.Does it support 64 bits instructions or 32 bits only?
     
    foreign steel, Jun 11, 2006
    #3
  4. themillman

    DRS Guest

    "themillman" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm
    > finding the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and
    > overclckng info surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what
    > has AMD got lined up to counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast
    > market? Conroe is out next month and right now AMD does not show
    > great performance gains with AMD2....


    Intel also got no initial benefit when they shifted to DDR2. The shift from
    939 to AM2 per se was not intended as a major architectural overhaul
    although it provides the platform for one. Conroe will have an initial
    performance boost over AMD but by early 2007 we should be seeing the 65um
    K8L 2nd generation AM2s. AMD can and undoubtedly will make the necessary
    improvements such as supporting more flexible reordering of Loads (a known
    K8 weakness), doubling the bandwidth of the on-chip caches, increased SSE
    throughput, etc., etc. K8L won't need to be revolutionary to compete with
    Conroe.
     
    DRS, Jun 11, 2006
    #4
  5. themillman

    NoNoBadDog! Guest

    "DRS" <> wrote in message
    news:448ba89f$0$26234$...
    > "themillman" <> wrote in message
    > news:
    >> Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm
    >> finding the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and
    >> overclckng info surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what
    >> has AMD got lined up to counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast
    >> market? Conroe is out next month and right now AMD does not show
    >> great performance gains with AMD2....

    >
    > Intel also got no initial benefit when they shifted to DDR2. The shift
    > from 939 to AM2 per se was not intended as a major architectural overhaul
    > although it provides the platform for one. Conroe will have an initial
    > performance boost over AMD but by early 2007 we should be seeing the 65um
    > K8L 2nd generation AM2s. AMD can and undoubtedly will make the necessary
    > improvements such as supporting more flexible reordering of Loads (a known
    > K8 weakness), doubling the bandwidth of the on-chip caches, increased SSE
    > throughput, etc., etc. K8L won't need to be revolutionary to compete with
    > Conroe.
    >


    There are some serious errors in your statements. Intel benefited
    dramatically from the introduction of DDR2. Since Intel does not have an
    on-die memory controller, the proc must still use the Northbridge chipset
    for all CPU-Memory I/O. Regardless of what the FSB rating is, the
    Northbridge chipset on an Intel motherboard operates at 400 MHz. (Intel
    plays number games to claim 800 or 1066, but the Northbridge is still 400
    MHz). Since each operand requires 4 clock cycles on the Northbridge chip to
    complete, the effective speed of *any* Intel NB is 100 MHZ. DDR2
    immediately gave a nearly 100% increase on an Intel based system.

    Since AMD had an on-die memory controller that can communicate directly to
    the RAM at the core speed of the processor, and that bandwidth exceeds that
    of DDR2, DDR2 is of no benefit for AMD. In order for DDR2 to benefit a
    system, that system must be using the NB FSB for CPU-RAM I/O.

    AMD chose to migrate to AM2 for several reasons. One of them is that as we
    go along, DDR2 will begin to replace DDR,and the RAM Manufacturers would
    rather produce DDR2 than DDR, so DDR will eventually suffer the same fate as
    RAMBUS and other RAM types that preceded it.

    In addition, the Conroe is not living up to it's hype (as everyone
    anticipated it would not). Intel originally claimed a 40% power advantage
    over AMD. Then it backed it off to 20%. Now that independent testers have
    Conroe, it looks like it's real world advantage is more like 8 to 9%. This
    is based upon non-synthetic testing, using the same apps you and I would
    use. Intel, when it tests it procs for numbers, uses a proprietary suite of
    tests that have no bearing on real world use. Intel also only uses tests
    that it knows will provide inflated values.

    All things considered, I think AMD does not have too far to go at all to
    better the Conroe. As for Merom, AMD already has the Turion64 X2, which is
    true dual core (Intel...NOT), is a 64 bit processor (Intel...NOT)...you get
    the picture.

    Intel is fond of the smoke and mirrors games.

    Bobby
     
    NoNoBadDog!, Jun 12, 2006
    #5
  6. themillman

    Wes Newell Guest

    On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:50:57 -1000, NoNoBadDog! wrote:

    > "DRS" <> wrote in message
    >> Intel also got no initial benefit when they shifted to DDR2. The shift
    >> from 939 to AM2 per se was not intended as a major architectural
    >> overhaul although it provides the platform for one. Conroe will have
    >> an initial performance boost over AMD but by early 2007 we should be
    >> seeing the 65um K8L 2nd generation AM2s. AMD can and undoubtedly will
    >> make the necessary improvements such as supporting more flexible
    >> reordering of Loads (a known K8 weakness), doubling the bandwidth of
    >> the on-chip caches, increased SSE throughput, etc., etc. K8L won't
    >> need to be revolutionary to compete with Conroe.
    >>
    >>

    > There are some serious errors in your statements.


    No there isn't. But there's some serious errors in yours.

    > Intel benefited dramatically from the introduction of DDR2.


    No they didn't. At least not dramatically as you put it.

    > Since Intel does not have an on-die memory controller, the proc must
    > still use the Northbridge chipset for all CPU-Memory I/O. Regardless of
    > what the FSB rating is,


    > the Northbridge chipset on an Intel motherboard operates at 400 MHz.



    No it doesn't. It operates between 100MHz and 266MHz (266 on the latest
    offering)

    > (Intel plays number games to claim 800 or 1066, but the Northbridge is
    > still 400 MHz). Since each operand requires 4 clock cycles on the
    > Northbridge chip to complete, the effective speed of *any* Intel NB is
    > 100 MHZ. DDR2 immediately gave a nearly 100% increase on an Intel based
    > system.
    >

    You need to understand the difference between the FSB, which runs between
    the CPU and northbridge at 100-266MHz on Intels and the memory bus that
    the ram is attached to, which runs between the ram and the northbridge. If
    the FSB isn't fast enough to support the bandwidth of the ram bus where
    does that leave you? It leaves you with one big (actually small)
    bottleneck. So with the early P4's running a 100MHz QDR bus, how does the
    extra bandwith of DDR2 help? It doesn't at slow FSB speeds. And even with
    faster FSB speeds the actual access to external ram plays only a small
    p[ercentage of the system performance roll. And I don't have a clue where
    you came up with the FSB of any Intel MB being 100MHz. The officially
    support 100, 133, 200, and now 266MHz They list these at 4 times the
    actual clock rate.

    > Since AMD had an on-die memory controller that can communicate directly
    > to the RAM at the core speed of the processor, and that bandwidth
    > exceeds that of DDR2, DDR2 is of no benefit for AMD. In order for DDR2
    > to benefit a system, that system must be using the NB FSB for CPU-RAM
    > I/O.
    >

    Wow, are you screwed up.

    > AMD chose to migrate to AM2 for several reasons. One of them is that as
    > we go along, DDR2 will begin to replace DDR,and the RAM Manufacturers
    > would rather produce DDR2 than DDR, so DDR will eventually suffer the
    > same fate as RAMBUS and other RAM types that preceded it.
    >

    While what you say here is true, it's not the major reason. The major
    reason was the fact that the cpu's are approaching speeds where ram
    bandwidth starvation will occur, thus slowing down performance.

    > In addition, the Conroe is not living up to it's hype (as everyone
    > anticipated it would not). Intel originally claimed a 40% power
    > advantage over AMD. Then it backed it off to 20%. Now that independent
    > testers have Conroe, it looks like it's real world advantage is more
    > like 8 to 9%. This is based upon non-synthetic testing, using the same
    > apps you and I would use. Intel, when it tests it procs for numbers,
    > uses a proprietary suite of tests that have no bearing on real world
    > use. Intel also only uses tests that it knows will provide inflated
    > values.
    >

    Well, I can tell you I've been a long time AMD fan. The last Intel I used
    was a 486SX20, but the introduction of the core 2 cpu might change that if
    Intel regains the price/performance edge. IOW's i go where the bargains
    are. If it's Intel then it's Intel. I don't own stock in either Intel or
    AMD. Bang for the buck for me. The name on the cpu doesn't matter to me. I
    am partial to AMD, but if the margin gets too big, I'll be an Intel
    customer again.

    > All things considered, I think AMD does not have too far to go at all to
    > better the Conroe. As for Merom, AMD already has the Turion64 X2, which
    > is true dual core (Intel...NOT), is a 64 bit processor
    > (Intel...NOT)...you get the picture.
    >

    It's nice you have that much faith in AMD. Time and Core 2 prices will
    tell.

    > Intel is fond of the smoke and mirrors games.
    >

    You got that right for sure.:)

    --
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    Wes Newell, Jun 12, 2006
    #6
  7. themillman

    belcher Guest

    On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:42:39 GMT, Wes Newell
    <> wrote:

    >On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:50:57 -1000, NoNoBadDog! wrote:
    >


    >>>

    >> There are some serious errors in your statements.

    >
    >No there isn't. But there's some serious errors in yours.
    >


    Down boy. They went to DDR2 because it's real hard to get 8 gigs on
    the motherboard if you use DDR.

    Heaven forbid we run registered ram at CAS 3 when (gee) we can run
    DDR2 at CAS 4.
     
    belcher, Jun 12, 2006
    #7
  8. themillman

    VanShania Guest

    Either way you slice it Intel will never be able to catch up to AMD. With 4
    cores and 65nm wafers coming in Jan, may as well make up an intel grave
    stone early

    --
    Sapphire X1600 Pro 512mb AGP
    MSI Theater 550Pro TV Tuner
    Thermaltake LanFire Midtower(4X80mm fans),Antec 550 Watt PSU
    Gigabyte GA-K8NSC-939 nForce3, A64 3500+, Stock Cooler IdleTemp 28 C
    2 Gb Dual Channel PC3200 OCZ Platinum 2-3-2-5 CL2.5
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    3Dmark2001 - 8702 4XAA/8XAF 1280X1024

    Games I'm Playing- IL-2 Sturmovick Series
    Empire Earth 2, Need For Speed: Underground 2,
    Civ IV, Warhammer 40,000 Gold




    "themillman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm
    > finding the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and
    > overclckng info surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what has AMD
    > got lined up to counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast market?
    > Conroe is out next month and right now AMD does not show great performance
    > gains with AMD2....
    >
     
    VanShania, Jun 12, 2006
    #8
  9. themillman

    Wes Newell Guest

    On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:47:46 +0100, themillman wrote:

    > Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm finding
    > the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and overclckng info
    > surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what has AMD got lined up to
    > counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast market? Conroe is out next
    > month and right now AMD does not show great performance gains with AMD2....


    There's some new comprehensive benchmarks at tweaktown.com. Use the junpto
    at the bottom of page to see the actual benchmarks.

    http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/914/1/page_1_benchmarking_intel_conroe_core_2/index.html

    I'm convinced that Intel has taken over the performance lead by quite a
    margin. But they don't offer good bang for the buck performance with lower
    clocked Conroes yet. At least AMD's slower CPU's give real good
    performance for the Money. Too soon to tell, but I'm sure there's going to
    be a lot of pricing changes from both AMD and Intel in the near future.
    All good for the consumer.

    --
    Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
    http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
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    HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
     
    Wes Newell, Jun 12, 2006
    #9
  10. themillman

    themillman Guest

    "Wes Newell" <> wrote in message
    news:p1kjg.30844$%m5.14745@trnddc04...
    > On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:47:46 +0100, themillman wrote:
    >
    >> Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm
    >> finding
    >> the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and overclckng info
    >> surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what has AMD got lined up
    >> to
    >> counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast market? Conroe is out next
    >> month and right now AMD does not show great performance gains with
    >> AMD2....

    >
    > There's some new comprehensive benchmarks at tweaktown.com. Use the junpto
    > at the bottom of page to see the actual benchmarks.
    >
    > http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/914/1/page_1_benchmarking_intel_conroe_core_2/index.html
    >
    > I'm convinced that Intel has taken over the performance lead by quite a
    > margin. But they don't offer good bang for the buck performance with lower
    > clocked Conroes yet. At least AMD's slower CPU's give real good
    > performance for the Money. Too soon to tell, but I'm sure there's going to
    > be a lot of pricing changes from both AMD and Intel in the near future.
    > All good for the consumer.
    >
    > --
    > Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
    > http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
    > My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
    > HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
    >

    Wes - thanks for link - makes an interesting read. I've not had an intel
    for years since AMD has been good value, etc. Are intel, specifically the
    new conroe, straight forward to overclock?
     
    themillman, Jun 18, 2006
    #10
  11. themillman

    DRS Guest

    "themillman" <> wrote in message
    news:

    [...]

    > Wes - thanks for link - makes an interesting read. I've not had an
    > intel for years since AMD has been good value, etc. Are intel,
    > specifically the new conroe, straight forward to overclock?


    How the hell would anyone know about the overclockability of a cpu that has
    yet to be released?
     
    DRS, Jun 18, 2006
    #11
  12. themillman

    Wes Newell Guest

    On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:10:39 +0100, themillman wrote:

    > Wes - thanks for link - makes an interesting read. I've not had an intel
    > for years since AMD has been good value, etc. Are intel, specifically the
    > new conroe, straight forward to overclock?


    All cpu's overclock (clock) the same way. Multiplier x FSB clock. Don't
    know what the limitations of the new Intel CPU is. I don't have one. I
    suspect it's multiplier locked just like AND's and you would overclock it
    the same way, by raising the FSB clock.

    --
    Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
    http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
    My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
    HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
     
    Wes Newell, Jun 19, 2006
    #12
  13. themillman

    themillman Guest

    "Wes Newell" <> wrote in message
    news:bhqlg.2042$DI2.647@trnddc05...
    > On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:10:39 +0100, themillman wrote:
    >
    >> Wes - thanks for link - makes an interesting read. I've not had an intel
    >> for years since AMD has been good value, etc. Are intel, specifically
    >> the
    >> new conroe, straight forward to overclock?

    >
    > All cpu's overclock (clock) the same way. Multiplier x FSB clock. Don't
    > know what the limitations of the new Intel CPU is. I don't have one. I
    > suspect it's multiplier locked just like AND's and you would overclock it
    > the same way, by raising the FSB clock.
    >
    > --
    > Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
    > http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
    > My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
    > HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
    >

    whoa DRS steady....Some Conroe chips have been issued for review, just
    wondered if any had been o/c'd.
    AMD multipliers aren't locked just higher than default multiplier - the
    exception being FX's. What I was asking was how intel's, in general, can be
    oc'd....if the multiplier is locked completely then the only way to crank
    the clock up is by increasing the FSB.
     
    themillman, Jun 20, 2006
    #13
  14. themillman

    Wes Newell Guest

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:48:44 +0100, themillman wrote:

    > whoa DRS steady....Some Conroe chips have been issued for review, just
    > wondered if any had been o/c'd.


    The link I gave at the start of this thread shows how it overclocked.

    > AMD multipliers aren't locked just higher than default multiplier - the
    > exception being FX's. What I was asking was how intel's, in general, can be
    > oc'd....if the multiplier is locked completely then the only way to crank
    > the clock up is by increasing the FSB.


    And that's exactly what I said.;-)

    --
    Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
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    Wes Newell, Jun 20, 2006
    #14
  15. themillman

    themillman Guest

    "Wes Newell" <> wrote in message
    news:UmUlg.22501$YI2.18723@trnddc01...
    > On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:48:44 +0100, themillman wrote:
    >
    >> whoa DRS steady....Some Conroe chips have been issued for review, just
    >> wondered if any had been o/c'd.

    >
    > The link I gave at the start of this thread shows how it overclocked.
    >
    >> AMD multipliers aren't locked just higher than default multiplier - the
    >> exception being FX's. What I was asking was how intel's, in general, can
    >> be
    >> oc'd....if the multiplier is locked completely then the only way to crank
    >> the clock up is by increasing the FSB.

    >
    > And that's exactly what I said.;-)
    >

    Thanks Wes - just restating. The temptation is to wait until the 4 cores
    come out...Do you know what the AMD offering will be?
     
    themillman, Jun 20, 2006
    #15
  16. themillman

    Wes Newell Guest

    On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:55:19 +0100, themillman wrote:

    > Thanks Wes - just restating. The temptation is to wait until the 4 cores
    > come out...Do you know what the AMD offering will be?


    Just what I've read. 4 core models will be here sometime next year. As
    soon as a dual core gets below $100 I might get one.:)

    --
    Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
    http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
    My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
    HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
     
    Wes Newell, Jun 21, 2006
    #16
  17. I've heard the date being something like July 24th....
    And yes, it should be 64bit processors (*2, Core 2 Duo ????)


    --
    Tumppi
    =================================
    Most learned on these newsgroups
    Helsinki, FINLAND
    (translations from/to FI not always accurate
    =================================




    "foreign steel" <> kirjoitti
    viestissä:...
    >
    > themillman wrote:
    >> Having been with AMD for years and very happy with the products, I'm
    >> finding
    >> the news about conroe very interesting. If the power and overclckng info
    >> surrounding the conroe proves to be accurate, what has AMD got lined up
    >> to
    >> counteract the Intel attack on the enthusiast market? Conroe is out next
    >> month and right now AMD does not show great performance gains with
    >> AMD2....

    > Do you know when the conroe will be released?
    > Second -.Does it support 64 bits instructions or 32 bits only?
    >
     
    Thomas Wendell, Jun 27, 2006
    #17
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