Core 2 duo with AGP

Discussion in 'Asus' started by AS, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. AS

    AS Guest

    Well, perhaps a strange question, but...
    The case is I am considering an upgrade to C2Duo. It looks like a clear
    choice for me. I am not interested in gaming at all, only 2D garphics like
    Photoshop, Premiere, Nikon Capture etc. Now I have a system with 478 socket
    and Matrox P650 AGP card. As I don't need more graphics power than I have
    now, there's no need to buy a new card. However, there's no mainboard with
    AGP port, all are with PCI-E, so I will be forced to shell out out extra
    cash for a new card I don't actually need. That's the progress, cough,... I
    was almost ready to do it until I ocasionally found an ASRock
    ConRoe865PEmobo (http://www.asrock.com/product/ConRoe865PE.htm). Does anyone
    know how big is the performance difference between this board and any 965
    chipset board?
    P.S. I can afford to buy all chunks, it's not a monye problem, just I don't
    like the idea to buy anything I don't really need.

    TIA
     
    AS, Oct 12, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Sounds like a real kludge to me. AGP is really dead. There are some
    good PCI-E motherboards at/under $100. I'd recommend the MSI RX1300
    Pro, based on the ATI X1300 chip.


    AS wrote:

    > Well, perhaps a strange question, but...
    > The case is I am considering an upgrade to C2Duo. It looks like a clear
    > choice for me. I am not interested in gaming at all, only 2D garphics
    > like Photoshop, Premiere, Nikon Capture etc. Now I have a system with
    > 478 socket and Matrox P650 AGP card. As I don't need more graphics power
    > than I have now, there's no need to buy a new card. However, there's no
    > mainboard with AGP port, all are with PCI-E, so I will be forced to
    > shell out out extra cash for a new card I don't actually need. That's
    > the progress, cough,... I was almost ready to do it until I ocasionally
    > found an ASRock ConRoe865PEmobo
    > (http://www.asrock.com/product/ConRoe865PE.htm). Does anyone know how
    > big is the performance difference between this board and any 965 chipset
    > board?
    > P.S. I can afford to buy all chunks, it's not a monye problem, just I
    > don't like the idea to buy anything I don't really need.
    >
    > TIA
     
    Barry Watzman, Oct 12, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. AS

    AS Guest

    "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Sounds like a real kludge to me. AGP is really dead.


    Yes. In a way because of the "new technology" pushing. I am not able to see
    any advantages of PCI-E vs. AGP in 2d Graphics.

    There are some
    > good PCI-E motherboards at/under $100.


    I know. As I said before, the money is not a problem. I don't like to buy
    want don't need.

    I'd recommend the MSI RX1300
    > Pro, based on the ATI X1300 chip.


    One of reasons I like the P650 because it's fanless. Sorry, didin't mention
    before.
    Actually I don't need recomendations, I am able to select cards. The
    question was not about this.
    Thanks for input, anyway.
     
    AS, Oct 12, 2006
    #3
  4. You may want to look at an onboard option for graphics. I have found the
    later chipsets with 64mb onboard work real well. My experience is with the
    AMD systems though, specifically Nvidia chipsets.

    Dan

    AS wrote:
    > Well, perhaps a strange question, but...
    > The case is I am considering an upgrade to C2Duo. It looks like a
    > clear choice for me. I am not interested in gaming at all, only 2D
    > garphics like Photoshop, Premiere, Nikon Capture etc. Now I have a
    > system with 478 socket and Matrox P650 AGP card. As I don't need more
    > graphics power than I have now, there's no need to buy a new card.
    > However, there's no mainboard with AGP port, all are with PCI-E, so I
    > will be forced to shell out out extra cash for a new card I don't
    > actually need. That's the progress, cough,... I was almost ready to
    > do it until I ocasionally found an ASRock ConRoe865PEmobo
    > (http://www.asrock.com/product/ConRoe865PE.htm). Does anyone know how
    > big is the performance difference between this board and any 965
    > chipset board? P.S. I can afford to buy all chunks, it's not a monye
    > problem, just I
    > don't like the idea to buy anything I don't really need.
    >
    > TIA
     
    Angry American, Oct 12, 2006
    #4
  5. AS

    Mitch Crane Guest

    "AS" <> wrote in news:ZPxXg.69$2net.dk:

    >
    > "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Sounds like a real kludge to me. AGP is really dead.

    >
    > Yes. In a way because of the "new technology" pushing. I am not able
    > to see any advantages of PCI-E vs. AGP in 2d Graphics.
    >
    > There are some
    >> good PCI-E motherboards at/under $100.

    >
    > I know. As I said before, the money is not a problem. I don't like to
    > buy want don't need.


    By the same token, you probably don't really need an AGP card, but that's
    what you have. Technology moves on. If money isn't an issue then just get a
    new PCI-e card and move on with it. Are you saying if someone gave you a
    suitable PCI-e video card for free you wouldn't use it?

    Alternatively, maybe you could move backward and get yourself a PCI video
    card.

    --
    ybbxvatyvxrnobeantnvayvivatyvxrnurergvpyvfgravatgbneguheyrrerpbeqfznxv
    atnyylbhesevraqfsrryfbthvyglnobhggurveplavpvfznaqgurerfgbsgurvetrareng
    vbaabgriragurtbireazragnertbaanfgbclbhabjohgnerlbhernqlgborurnegoebxra
     
    Mitch Crane, Oct 12, 2006
    #5
  6. AS

    Jerry Guest

    "Mitch Crane" <-three> wrote in message
    news:Xns985AB38208107aoneatwoathree@216.196.97.142...
    > "AS" <> wrote in

    news:ZPxXg.69$2net.dk:
    >
    > >
    > > "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> Sounds like a real kludge to me. AGP is really dead.

    > >
    > > Yes. In a way because of the "new technology" pushing. I am not

    able
    > > to see any advantages of PCI-E vs. AGP in 2d Graphics.
    > >
    > > There are some
    > >> good PCI-E motherboards at/under $100.

    > >
    > > I know. As I said before, the money is not a problem. I don't

    like to
    > > buy want don't need.

    >
    > By the same token, you probably don't really need an AGP card, but

    that's
    > what you have. Technology moves on. If money isn't an issue then

    just get a
    > new PCI-e card and move on with it. Are you saying if someone gave

    you a
    > suitable PCI-e video card for free you wouldn't use it?
    >


    There are still one or two applications that require a Matrox AGP
    card, but the point is, there is no real need for PCI-e graphics
    cards outside the gaming sector but unfortunately that is the sector
    were manufactures can entice people to part with money more
    easily....
     
    Jerry, Oct 12, 2006
    #6
  7. AS

    Guest

    On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 23:18:02 +0100, "Jerry" <>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Mitch Crane" <-three> wrote in message
    >news:Xns985AB38208107aoneatwoathree@216.196.97.142...
    >> "AS" <> wrote in

    >news:ZPxXg.69$2net.dk:
    >>
    >> >
    >> > "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:...
    >> >> Sounds like a real kludge to me. AGP is really dead.
    >> >
    >> > Yes. In a way because of the "new technology" pushing. I am not

    >able
    >> > to see any advantages of PCI-E vs. AGP in 2d Graphics.
    >> >
    >> > There are some
    >> >> good PCI-E motherboards at/under $100.
    >> >
    >> > I know. As I said before, the money is not a problem. I don't

    >like to
    >> > buy want don't need.

    >>
    >> By the same token, you probably don't really need an AGP card, but

    >that's
    >> what you have. Technology moves on. If money isn't an issue then

    >just get a
    >> new PCI-e card and move on with it. Are you saying if someone gave

    >you a
    >> suitable PCI-e video card for free you wouldn't use it?
    >>

    >
    >There are still one or two applications that require a Matrox AGP
    >card, but the point is, there is no real need for PCI-e graphics
    >cards outside the gaming sector but unfortunately that is the sector
    >were manufactures can entice people to part with money more
    >easily....
    >



    unfortunately !?!?!?!

    How so?
     
    , Oct 12, 2006
    #7
  8. AS

    AS Guest

    "Angry American" <> wrote in message
    news:452eb08c$0$2985$...
    > You may want to look at an onboard option for graphics. I have found the
    > later chipsets with 64mb onboard work real well. My experience is with the
    > AMD systems though, specifically Nvidia chipsets.


    Oh, yes, there's such an option, but thanks for reply. The case is there's
    no onboard graphics comparable qualitywise to a separate card dedicated for
    graphical applications. In short: It's not good enough.
     
    AS, Oct 13, 2006
    #8
  9. AS

    AS Guest

    "Mitch Crane" <-three> wrote in message
    news:Xns985AB38208107aoneatwoathree@216.196.97.142...
    >
    > By the same token, you probably don't really need an AGP card, but that's
    > what you have. Technology moves on.


    Certainly

    > If money isn't an issue then just get a
    > new PCI-e card and move on with it.


    I am sure, all manufactures are really glad to hear this :)

    > Are you saying if someone gave you a
    > suitable PCI-e video card for free you wouldn't use it?


    It's strange. I asked a if anyone could comment about the performance
    difference (raw CPU power) between a certain board with an older chipset and
    a new CPU on it and another "avarage" board with a new chipset and a new
    CPU. No comments so far, just an angry reaction because of the old
    technology. Well, I can see why it's moving on ;-)

    >
    > Alternatively, maybe you could move backward and get yourself a PCI video
    > card.


    No problem. I stil have a good one, and it is as a "plan B".
     
    AS, Oct 13, 2006
    #9
  10. There is a good PCI-E fanless card, the eVGA 7600GS, about $140.

    You are correct that you are being pushed to technology (PCI-E) that may
    not benefit you in particular. However, that doesn't mean that there is
    no benefit, as PCI-E is faster than AGP. And, consequently, since it's
    not more expensive, the manufacturers are going to go with it for all
    new chipsets. Which leaves anyone trying to use previous generation
    technology out in the cold as far as new motherboards are concerned, but
    that is the price of progress.


    AS wrote:

    >
    > "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> Sounds like a real kludge to me. AGP is really dead.

    >
    >
    > Yes. In a way because of the "new technology" pushing. I am not able to
    > see any advantages of PCI-E vs. AGP in 2d Graphics.
    >
    > There are some
    >
    >> good PCI-E motherboards at/under $100.

    >
    >
    > I know. As I said before, the money is not a problem. I don't like to
    > buy want don't need.
    >
    > I'd recommend the MSI RX1300
    >
    >> Pro, based on the ATI X1300 chip.

    >
    >
    > One of reasons I like the P650 because it's fanless. Sorry, didin't
    > mention before.
    > Actually I don't need recomendations, I am able to select cards. The
    > question was not about this.
    > Thanks for input, anyway.
     
    Barry Watzman, Oct 13, 2006
    #10
  11. Actually there is a brand new 965G chipset with Intel GMA X3000
    integrated video that is very good. Gigabyte offers a GA-965G-DS3 that
    offers this for about $150 .... that gives you the Core 2 Duo
    motherboard with fairly powerful integrated graphics (and no additional
    fans). It's very new, but I think that Newegg or ZipZoomFly has it.


    Angry American wrote:

    > You may want to look at an onboard option for graphics. I have found the
    > later chipsets with 64mb onboard work real well. My experience is with the
    > AMD systems though, specifically Nvidia chipsets.
    >
    > Dan
    >
    > AS wrote:
    >
    >>Well, perhaps a strange question, but...
    >>The case is I am considering an upgrade to C2Duo. It looks like a
    >>clear choice for me. I am not interested in gaming at all, only 2D
    >>garphics like Photoshop, Premiere, Nikon Capture etc. Now I have a
    >>system with 478 socket and Matrox P650 AGP card. As I don't need more
    >>graphics power than I have now, there's no need to buy a new card.
    >>However, there's no mainboard with AGP port, all are with PCI-E, so I
    >>will be forced to shell out out extra cash for a new card I don't
    >>actually need. That's the progress, cough,... I was almost ready to
    >>do it until I ocasionally found an ASRock ConRoe865PEmobo
    >>(http://www.asrock.com/product/ConRoe865PE.htm). Does anyone know how
    >>big is the performance difference between this board and any 965
    >>chipset board? P.S. I can afford to buy all chunks, it's not a monye
    >>problem, just I
    >>don't like the idea to buy anything I don't really need.
    >>
    >>TIA

    >
    >
    >
     
    Barry Watzman, Oct 13, 2006
    #11
  12. Take a look at the new Intel GMA X3000 integrated video. It probably IS
    good enough. Not saying it's the equal of a $500 PCI-E video card, but
    it's probably the equal of almost all (except for the very highest end)
    AGP video cards.


    AS wrote:

    >
    > "Angry American" <> wrote in message
    > news:452eb08c$0$2985$...
    >
    >> You may want to look at an onboard option for graphics. I have found
    >> the later chipsets with 64mb onboard work real well. My experience is
    >> with the AMD systems though, specifically Nvidia chipsets.

    >
    >
    > Oh, yes, there's such an option, but thanks for reply. The case is
    > there's no onboard graphics comparable qualitywise to a separate card
    > dedicated for graphical applications. In short: It's not good enough.
     
    Barry Watzman, Oct 13, 2006
    #12
  13. AS

    DRS Guest

    "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > There is a good PCI-E fanless card, the eVGA 7600GS, about $140.
    >
    > You are correct that you are being pushed to technology (PCI-E) that
    > may not benefit you in particular. However, that doesn't mean that
    > there is no benefit, as PCI-E is faster than AGP.


    On paper, yes. But since the potential bandwidth of AGP8 was never fully
    utilised people were right to wonder to which problem PCIe was a solution.
    At PCIe's launch the best Intel could come up with was video editting, since
    PCIe is bidirectional. It's a dead argument now as far as the manufacturers
    are concerned, but PCIe's purported speed increase is simply not a benefit
    for users with a decent AGP setup.
     
    DRS, Oct 13, 2006
    #13
  14. AS

    Guest

    AS wrote:
    > However, there's no mainboard with
    > AGP port, all are with PCI-E, so I will be forced to shell out out extra
    > cash for a new card I don't actually need. That's the progress, cough, I
    > was almost ready to do it until I ocasionally found an ASRock
    > ConRoe865PE mobo



    ASRock also has 775Dual-VSTA based on VIA PT880 Pro/Ultra that supports
    Conroe. It features a full-fledged AGP 8x slot and limited PCI Express
    x16 slot (x4 lanes), as well slots for DDR or DDR2 memory (can't use
    both at the same time). 775Dual-VSTA officially supports 1066MHz bus
    rather than the unofficial support "by overclocking" for the 865PE.

    The Intel 865PE chipset uses a rather dated 266MB/sec interconnect
    between the North and South bridges, while the VIA chipset has a more
    modern 1GB/sec interconnect (Ultra V-Link). The VIA board features HD
    Audio instead of AC97 and supports RAID.

    http://www.asrock.com/product/775Dual-VSTA.htm

    The PCI Express (x4 lane) implementation on 775Dual-VSTA only lags
    behind full-fledged PCI Express x16 boards by not more than 15%.
    Interestingly, AGP performance on this board is consistently better
    than the PCI Express (x4) slot by about 5%, meaning that high-end AGP
    cards lag behind their PCI Express x16 counterparts by not more than
    10%. So much for AGP being 'dead', necessitating the replacement of a
    1 year-old GPU at a cost of a few hundred bills to get 10% increase in
    frame rates with *some* games.

    The frame-rate zealots will never have a rational grip on the
    cost/benefit concept. lol!


    ASRock Core 2 Duo: AGP/PCI Express Graphics Performance (775Dual-VSTA)
    http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2814

    ASRock Core 2 Duo: Memory Performance (775Dual-VSTA)
    http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2813

    ASrock 775Dual-VSTA Review
    http://www.ocworkbench.com/2006/asrock/775Dual-VSTA/g1.htm

    Conroe Buying Guide from Anandtech.com (775Dual-VSTA)
    http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=10
     
    , Oct 13, 2006
    #14
  15. Yes, but you can make those arguments about almost every NEW technology
    at the time of it's introduction .... that, in almost all cases, the old
    technology was fast enough to meet people's needs at the time that the
    new technology was introduced. PCI was no better than VL bus, AGP was
    no better than PCI, PCI-E was no better than AGP. And, for that matter,
    Pentium II/233 was no better than Pentium MMX 233, and, going back
    further, Pentium 66MHz was no better than 486DX2/66. And those
    statements were pretty much right ... at the time of introduction ...
    but look down the road a year or two after introduction and the
    capabilities of the "old" standard had been unquestionably eclipsed.

    It's how we move forward in this business.

    [Except that Core 2 Duo just absolutely destroys all previous processors
    by both Intel and AMD. Nothing else is even close.]


    DRS wrote:
    > "Barry Watzman" <> wrote in message
    > news:
    >
    >>There is a good PCI-E fanless card, the eVGA 7600GS, about $140.
    >>
    >>You are correct that you are being pushed to technology (PCI-E) that
    >>may not benefit you in particular. However, that doesn't mean that
    >>there is no benefit, as PCI-E is faster than AGP.

    >
    >
    > On paper, yes. But since the potential bandwidth of AGP8 was never fully
    > utilised people were right to wonder to which problem PCIe was a solution.
    > At PCIe's launch the best Intel could come up with was video editting, since
    > PCIe is bidirectional. It's a dead argument now as far as the manufacturers
    > are concerned, but PCIe's purported speed increase is simply not a benefit
    > for users with a decent AGP setup.
    >
    >
     
    Barry Watzman, Oct 13, 2006
    #15
  16. AS

    AS Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...

    >
    > The Intel 865PE chipset uses a rather dated 266MB/sec interconnect
    > between the North and South bridges,


    Exactly, I am most concerned about how much influence it can have on the
    actual raw CPU performance in 2D.


    >
    > The frame-rate zealots will never have a rational grip on the
    > cost/benefit concept. lol!


    Yes, that's what is all about.

    >
    >
    > ASRock Core 2 Duo: AGP/PCI Express Graphics Performance (775Dual-VSTA)
    > http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2814
    >
    > ASRock Core 2 Duo: Memory Performance (775Dual-VSTA)
    > http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2813
    >
    > ASrock 775Dual-VSTA Review
    > http://www.ocworkbench.com/2006/asrock/775Dual-VSTA/g1.htm
    >
    > Conroe Buying Guide from Anandtech.com (775Dual-VSTA)
    > http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=10


    I will be busy for a while and make some decision. Thanks.
     
    AS, Oct 13, 2006
    #16
  17. AS

    Fishman > Guest

    "AS" <> wrote in message
    news:4nxXg.62$2net.dk...
    > Well, perhaps a strange question, but...
    > The case is I am considering an upgrade to C2Duo. It looks like a clear
    > choice for me. I am not interested in gaming at all, only 2D garphics like
    > Photoshop, Premiere, Nikon Capture etc. Now I have a system with 478
    > socket and Matrox P650 AGP card. As I don't need more graphics power than
    > I have now, there's no need to buy a new card. However, there's no
    > mainboard with AGP port, all are with PCI-E, so I will be forced to shell
    > out out extra cash for a new card I don't actually need. That's the
    > progress, cough,... I was almost ready to do it until I ocasionally found
    > an ASRock ConRoe865PEmobo (http://www.asrock.com/product/ConRoe865PE.htm).
    > Does anyone know how big is the performance difference between this board
    > and any 965 chipset board?
    > P.S. I can afford to buy all chunks, it's not a monye problem, just I
    > don't like the idea to buy anything I don't really need.
    >
    > TIA


    Does the Asrock properly support 1066 FSB?

    Says about 1066 FSB - " * Supported by overclocking mode "
    What does that mean and do you want to overclock?
    Sounds iffy to me.

    I recently did the same upgrade:
    Asus P5N32-SLI mob
    Asus EN6600 Silent
    E6600 CPU

    No chipset fans at all - just in PSU and on the CPU.
    Very pleased except the gfx card heatsink seems excessivly hot.
     
    Fishman >, Oct 13, 2006
    #17
  18. "Barry Watzman" <> skrev i en meddelelse
    news:...
    > Take a look at the new Intel GMA X3000 integrated video. It probably IS
    > good enough. Not saying it's the equal of a $500 PCI-E video card, but
    > it's probably the equal of almost all (except for the very highest end)
    > AGP video cards.


    Ok. Sounded interesting. Found some benchmarks too:

    Driver-Version 14.24 14.25 14.26

    3DMark 2001 SE 6970 n/a n/a

    3DMark 2003 1788 n/a n/a

    3DMark 2005 845 n/a n/a

    3DMark 2006 SM2.0 144 n/a n/a
    HDR/SM3.0 n/a n/a n/a


    If these benchmarks are true, this famous Intel GMA X3000 integrated video
    chip is not even AGP-midrange.

    G.
     
    N´far \( 8600 \), Oct 13, 2006
    #18
  19. AS

    Jerry Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 23:18:02 +0100, "Jerry"

    <>
    > wrote:
    >

    <snip>
    > >
    > >There are still one or two applications that require a Matrox AGP
    > >card, but the point is, there is no real need for PCI-e graphics
    > >cards outside the gaming sector but unfortunately that is the

    sector
    > >were manufactures can entice people to part with money more
    > >easily....
    > >

    >
    > unfortunately !?!?!?!
    >
    > How so?


    Because they then forget the *non* gaming sectors.
     
    Jerry, Oct 13, 2006
    #19
  20. AS

    Guest

    AS wrote:
    > I will be busy for a while and make some decision. Thanks.



    The ASRock ConRoe865PE will not be available in the United States,
    according to ASRock. So that might help narrow things down for you,
    depending on your location.

    At around $65.00 (US) delivered, the 775Dual-VSTA can't be beat for
    features, upgrade path, or value...and is only barely beaten in
    performance by boards costing a lot more.
     
    , Oct 13, 2006
    #20
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