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Dvorak Likes Linux

Discussion in 'Intel' started by YKhan, Mar 13, 2009.

  1. YKhan

    YKhan Guest

    I've had it permanently installed on my desktop since version 5.10,
    too. Meanwhile it's been permanently installed on my laptop since 8.10
    (after I upgraded the disk to 160GB). I now find myself using mainly
    Ubuntu on the laptop, but the desktop still needs a few apps running
    on Windows -- that'll be fixed soon enough once I figure the
    Virtualbox out. So John C. welcome to the party.

    Yousuf Khan

    Dvorak Likes Linux - Lab Notes by ExtremeTech
    "Every so often I take a stab at Linux, to see exactly what I like and
    do not like about the OS. Many of its problems, for me, stem from its
    inability to run on my overloaded hardware, or the occasional driver
    that makes the OS impossible to use without hand-tweaking something or
    other. That said, I seriously like the Ubuntu 8.10 implementation and
    will now install it permanently on my latest machines. It's a winner.
    "
    http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2342869,00.asp
     
    YKhan, Mar 13, 2009
    #1
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  2. YKhan

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > A little bit of caution against Linux.
    > As a 12 year Linux users, well from SLS distro kernel-0.98??? or so,
    > maybe more then 12 years now, lately I have become a bit - let's say
    > 'pissed' with the Linux stuff.
    > Mainly because things continuously break due to required 'upgrading' of packages,
    > and also because of market protection (and that is related to my first point)
    > by the various distros,
    > and I need to point out that I've read bubuntu's boss is a billionaire...
    > is he pushing their products....
    > I have never tried bubuntoe and very likely never will.


    Is Bubuntu yet another new distro based on Ubuntu? They already have
    Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Medibuntu, etc. I'm thinking Bubuntu is a
    typo on your part, but you can never tell these days. :)

    > In retrospect the best distro I ever had was Slackware.
    > RatHead was the first with using incompatibility to bind people to
    > their systems, Suse was good but is having sex with MS, and is there sabotage going on?
    > And the kernel is getting different every release, filesystems break (ext4),
    > and good things are not put into - and bad things are put into that kernel.
    > Systems are changed from version X.x to Y.z so nothing works anymore, gnu
    > software, that was some sort of sign for 'it will work', breaks, it is a MESS.
    > All that to make a commercial product so you have to buy a complete distro.


    Well, I have settled on Ubuntu myself. I'm pretty comfortable with it. I
    do dislike some of the changes they're making which break previous
    methods of doing things, but that's just something I'm used to from
    years of Windows upgrades. Everything I learned in Windows 95 had to be
    thrown out with Windows 98, then again with 2000, and then again with
    XP, and now with Vista.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    Yousuf Khan, Mar 13, 2009
    #2
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  3. YKhan

    Tom Lake Guest

    Tom Lake, Mar 13, 2009
    #3
  4. YKhan

    Sylvia Else Guest

    > http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2342869,00.asp

    "You should also note that almost all of the newest hardware coming out
    has Linux support."

    I think that's overstating it, and figuring out whether the hardware one
    intends to buy is supported can be a tortuous process. Life is not made
    any easier by the fact that some manufacturers will completely change
    the design of a board and just change the revision number.

    Sylvia.
     
    Sylvia Else, Mar 14, 2009
    #4
  5. YKhan

    YKhan Guest

    On Mar 13, 11:21 am, Jan Panteltje <> wrote:
    > I dunno, I had a free win32 type compiler that I used some times to make simple GUIs, I think
    > it worked in all older version, but am not sure anymore, so long ago.
    > I just tried to make a Nokia bluetooth headset work with the Asus eeePC (for Skype).
    > Not only are many of the instructions on the net wrong, the whole bluetooth thing (bluez)
    > was changed from version 2.? to 3.? to use dbus, but no indication how toadd a PIN for paring
    > the headset.
    > Finally found a hint on wiki.eeeuser.com where to put the pin, and got the thing to pair,
    > and can connect to it, next should be how to send and get sound from it.


    Actually, I've had a similar problem with a bluetooth adapter that I
    just can't seem to get a driver for. I assume the solution to this
    will be for an OEM to package a bluetooth adapter already configured
    and known to work with Linux. We are heading towards an era where PCs
    won't be nearly so customized, except from out of the factory. This
    can only help Linux, when the factory puts stuff in that is guaranteed
    to work.

    We won't be adding nearly so much stuff into our PCs from the
    aftermarket.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    YKhan, Mar 14, 2009
    #5
  6. YKhan

    Robert Myers Guest

    On Mar 13, 8:28 am, Jan Panteltje

    > Time for something new.


    Maybe you'd be happier in the world of OpenVMS: extremely stable OS,
    authoritarian vendor and user community (no democratic chaos), endless
    supply of super-cheap hardware (what to do with all those Itanium
    boxes that fix into such a teensy little niche), open source code for
    non-commercial uses.

    Or you can fork Linux any time or any place you like.

    Or you can pick up any of the ambitious OS efforts that have been
    started and abandoned at places like CMU and MIT.

    If you're going to count on someone else to do it for you, you have to
    put up with whatever *they* decide. Has nothing to do with
    capitalism, socialism, Marxism, imperialism, or even that the world of
    software has a special corner on human foibles.

    Personally, for all the aggravation, I don't see anything in the near
    future but Linux (as dominated by IBM and RedHat) and Windows (because
    of all those proprietary encoders).

    Who knows. Maybe ARM will kill off both x86 and its co-dependent
    OS's. Only time will tell.

    In the meanwhile, I'm really happy with the LInux and Open Source
    Communities (pax, RMS), and I can tolerate Windows. I really don't
    think I could do better.

    Robert.
     
    Robert Myers, Mar 14, 2009
    #6
  7. YKhan

    Robert Myers Guest

    On Mar 14, 6:15 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    >
    > Well, why bother.
    >


    You might bother if you grasped that existing OS's have got it all
    wrong. Or, you might not bother if you grasped that existing OS's and
    existing ISA's have one another in a death grip.

    But I don't don't think you grasp those things, and I'm sure you will
    think I am patronizing you for saying so.

    Why bother, indeed? Why bother with a different OS or a different ISA
    unless you've got something really different on your mind?

    Robert.
     
    Robert Myers, Mar 15, 2009
    #7
  8. YKhan

    Jack Guest

    Robert Myers wrote:
    : On Mar 14, 6:15 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    :
    ::
    :: Well, why bother.
    ::
    :
    : You might bother if you grasped that existing OS's have got it all
    : wrong. Or, you might not bother if you grasped that existing OS's
    : and existing ISA's have one another in a death grip.
    :
    : But I don't don't think you grasp those things, and I'm sure you
    : will think I am patronizing you for saying so.

    You are SUCH a freaking bag of hot air....what an asshole. I've been
    reading Jan Pantelje's posts for years (at least since '98 or so) in various
    NG's. I've also had the displeasure of following your arcane reasoning in a
    multitude of "posts de mierda)" over the years...sometimes I think your
    alias is "Ron Reaugh" in place of "R. Myers." I wish you would just
    s.t.f.u. because you're clearly out of your league here. LOL!

    J.
     
    Jack, Mar 15, 2009
    #8
  9. YKhan

    Robert Myers Guest

    On Mar 15, 8:58 am, "Jack" <> wrote:
    > Robert Myers wrote:
    >
    > : On Mar 14, 6:15 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > :
    > ::
    > :: Well, why bother.
    > ::
    > :
    > : You might bother if you grasped that existing OS's have got it all
    > : wrong.  Or, you might not bother if you grasped that existing OS's
    > : and existing ISA's have one another in a death grip.
    > :
    > : But I don't don't think you grasp those things, and I'm sure you
    > : will think I am patronizing you for saying so.
    >
    > You are SUCH a freaking bag of hot air....what an asshole.  I've been
    > reading Jan Pantelje's posts for years (at least since '98 or so) in various
    > NG's.  I've also had the displeasure of following your arcane reasoningin a
    > multitude of "posts de mierda)" over the years...sometimes I think your
    > alias is "Ron Reaugh" in place of "R. Myers."  I wish you would just
    > s.t.f.u. because you're clearly out of your league here.  LOL!
    >


    It's pretty simple. If someone says things that are of no value to
    you, you ignore them.

    Here, you are engaged in a different activity, which is defamation.
    There's nothing subtle about it. You are directly attacking my
    character, my personality, my knowledge, and my intelligence. Why you
    feel the need to do that or why you would think it an appropriate
    thing to do is beyond my imagining.

    There is no technical content to this conversation at all. It's about
    social realities: how you evaluate others, how you think others will
    evaluate you, and what you think you can get away with in a social
    setting. What you think you can get away with is repulsive.

    I don't have any absolute technique for evaluating your intelligence
    or anyone else's. You may be very smart in ways that are utterly
    beyond my comprehension, but it works both ways. If you can't
    understand how I think or how I express myself, it doesn't mean that
    I'm stupid or any other negative quality you might wish to attach to
    me.

    The fact that you think you are qualified as an evaluator of absolute
    intelligence says a lot to me about who I think you are and what I
    think I could and could not successfully communicate to you.

    I've done enough coding to know that I'm much better at some tasks
    than at others. Writing an OS would not be a good use of my time.

    I worded something in a way so that you and Jan and perhaps others
    took it in a way that I did not intend. You and Jan have adopted a
    tone of such a nature that it is impossible to try to fix it.

    Not everyone thinks the same way or has the same ideas at the same
    time. That's all I meant by "if you grasped."

    If you want to object to something technical that I've said, feel
    free. If you want to attack my personality, it isn't exactly true
    that there is nothing I can do to stop you, but I'm not going to waste
    my time.

    Robert.
     
    Robert Myers, Mar 15, 2009
    #9
  10. YKhan

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    Sylvia Else wrote:
    >> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2342869,00.asp

    >
    > "You should also note that almost all of the newest hardware coming out
    > has Linux support."
    >
    > I think that's overstating it, and figuring out whether the hardware one
    > intends to buy is supported can be a tortuous process. Life is not made
    > any easier by the fact that some manufacturers will completely change
    > the design of a board and just change the revision number.
    >
    > Sylvia.


    Which is why I think getting a linux laptop pre-configured with all of
    the right hardware is probably the way things are going to go. The OEM
    would include only hardware that had drivers in Linux already. Despite
    Windows' true claim to be the best supported OS in terms of drivers,
    most people rarely add things to Windows beyond simple USB storage
    devices. If you get a laptop which includes bluetooth, a webcam,
    built-in, you probably never need to add anything else into it. People
    will use that as is, till it's time to replace the laptop.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    Yousuf Khan, Mar 15, 2009
    #10
  11. YKhan

    YKhan Guest

    On Mar 15, 2:23 pm, Jan Panteltje <> wrote:
    > Totally wrong.
    > People buy digital cameras, they want to access those from the laptop,
    > maybe edit the video on it too.
    > Same for audio devices, headphones via USB, cardreaders for other formats,
    > Install new codecs, new webbrowser versions (security upgrades appear
    > every day), other adaptors...
    > There is no limit.
    > My advice to those, unless you are a nerd and are good in C and a few other
    > computer languages, and have thousands of hours time,
    >             do NOT but a Linux version, buy Xp.


    Most digital cameras these days simply act as standard USB mass
    storage devices. No problem. Editing them isn't a problem either.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    YKhan, Mar 16, 2009
    #11
  12. YKhan

    Jack Guest

    Robert Myers wrote:
    : On Mar 15, 8:58 am, "Jack" <> wrote:
    :: Robert Myers wrote:

    <snip>

    : Not everyone thinks the same way or has the same ideas at the same
    : time. That's all I meant by "if you grasped."

    Oh, PA-LEASE!!
    :
    : If you want to object to something technical that I've said, feel
    : free. If you want to attack my personality, it isn't exactly true
    : that there is nothing I can do to stop you, but I'm not going to
    : waste my time.

    LOL! Pot...kettle...black.
     
    Jack, Mar 16, 2009
    #12
  13. YKhan

    Jack Guest

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    :: On a sunny day (Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
    <snip>

    :: Long time ago I wrote my own CP/M clone..
    :: Without ever having [had] access to a CP/M system.
    :: Only had some floppies with CP/M source files from the CP/M user
    :: group, so I could test.
    :: Of course I designed the hardware too (Z80 based), it is actually
    :: all on the net: http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    Ah, good ole Zilog (Cupertino, CA). Worked for them while attending SJSU
    from 1981-1982. Now THAT company was different! I have some rather fond
    (if not faded) memories working as the engineering "go-between" for Zilog
    and LLNL (Lawrence Livermore). Nothing ever came of it, however. :-(
    Moved on for a one-year stint over at IBM (Almaden Research Center) which,
    after working at Zilog, turned me into a complete schizoid. But I
    digress....

    Sorry for the OT reply but the mere mention of Zilog sort of brings tears to
    my eyes. ;-)

    J.
     
    Jack, Mar 16, 2009
    #13
  14. YKhan

    Jerry Peters Guest

    In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips YKhan <> wrote:
    > On Mar 15, 2:23 pm, Jan Panteltje <> wrote:
    >> Totally wrong.
    >> People buy digital cameras, they want to access those from the laptop,
    >> maybe edit the video on it too.
    >> Same for audio devices, headphones via USB, cardreaders for other formats,
    >> Install new codecs, new webbrowser versions (security upgrades appear
    >> every day), other adaptors...
    >> There is no limit.
    >> My advice to those, unless you are a nerd and are good in C and a few other
    >> computer languages, and have thousands of hours time,
    >>             do NOT but a Linux version, buy Xp.

    >
    > Most digital cameras these days simply act as standard USB mass
    > storage devices. No problem. Editing them isn't a problem either.
    >
    > Yousuf Khan


    Some do, some don't. My dad's Olympus doesn't. I have to transfer
    pictures via an SD card.

    Jerry
     
    Jerry Peters, Mar 16, 2009
    #14
  15. YKhan

    krw Guest

    On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:13:07 GMT, Jerry Peters <>
    wrote:

    >In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips YKhan <> wrote:
    >> On Mar 15, 2:23 pm, Jan Panteltje <> wrote:
    >>> Totally wrong.
    >>> People buy digital cameras, they want to access those from the laptop,
    >>> maybe edit the video on it too.
    >>> Same for audio devices, headphones via USB, cardreaders for other formats,
    >>> Install new codecs, new webbrowser versions (security upgrades appear
    >>> every day), other adaptors...
    >>> There is no limit.
    >>> My advice to those, unless you are a nerd and are good in C and a few other
    >>> computer languages, and have thousands of hours time,
    >>>             do NOT but a Linux version, buy Xp.

    >>
    >> Most digital cameras these days simply act as standard USB mass
    >> storage devices. No problem. Editing them isn't a problem either.
    >>
    >> Yousuf Khan

    >
    >Some do, some don't. My dad's Olympus doesn't. I have to transfer
    >pictures via an SD card.


    Don't know if my Olympus does or doesn't. Popping the XD card into my
    ThinkPad is simpler than finding the cable. ;-)
     
    krw, Mar 16, 2009
    #15
  16. YKhan

    Robert Myers Guest

    Re: Linux is only for the diehard programmer, geek, computer nerd,with thousands of hours of spare time, who is good in C and a few otherlanguages.

    On Mar 17, 3:02 pm, Jan Panteltje <> wrote:
    > On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:13:06 -0500) it happened chrisv
    > <> wrote in <>:
    >
    > >Jan Panteltje wrote:

    >
    > >>> Linux is all about choice.

    >
    > >>No it is not,

    >
    > >Yes, it is.

    >
    > >> (snip ignorance, lies, idiocy, etc.)

    >
    > You are just insulting because you know nothing about the subject,
    > and likely NEVER contributed anything in the form of programs.
    >
    > >For anyone following, I suggest downloading a Linux .iso for a
    > >"LiveCD", and trying it yourself.  

    >
    > For everyone reading, the 'CDs' with some versions of Linux,
    > very often do not even support your hardware,
    > and run slow as hell, and as such are not usable for anything.
    >
    > >The LiveCD's boot and run from CD, not touching the HD at all, making
    > >for a risk- free trial.  Install to a spare HD for the full
    > >experience.

    >
    > No experience there, as you cannot do anything.
    >
    > >See for yourself if you "have to write your own apps", or if that is a
    > >lie and the reality is that most Linux distributions come loaded the
    > >free and high-quality apps, like the MS-Office compatible Open Office,
    > >with many more applications freely and easily installable.

    >
    > Sure, but all I wanted was my Nokia bluetooth headset working
    > with Skype, a good video editor for my movies, and being able
    > to register my Canon online.
    > To use the software that comes with my gadgets, that has all Win Xp and
    > Vista stuff on Cds, and none of that goes.
    > A spreadsheet (open - or star office) plus a few hard to learn blurb things is nothing new.
    >
    > >I recommend Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, and Mepis.

    >
    > I recommend you have your brain inspected.
    > For people who do not have zillions of hours to waste on incompatibility,they should just install
    > Xp, or get a Mac.
    >
    > For the diehard write your own, as I am, even the today's Linux is a bit too much crap.
    >
    > In case you have any doubt who is the real developer here, just visit
    >  http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html
    >
    > So, and to you (with whatever your agenda is, and whoever pays you),
    > now show me your contribution to open source.
    > That WORKS.
    > Anonymous asshole.


    It might be fair to ask Mr. Paneltje's priorities. I have a really
    hard time imagining what they could be.

    Linux really isn't a suitable general-purpose desktop system, and I
    can't imagine that it ever will be. On the other hand, Windows isn't
    an attractive environment for other kinds of tasks. HPC is going to
    be dominated by Linux now and for the foreseeable future, as far as I
    can tell.

    Some of us would like to be working on bare metal, or as close as we
    can get. Virtualization opens up all kinds of interesting
    possibilities. One might actually contemplate writing an "operating
    system," even though it would never support a webcam. No problem,
    Windows can be running on another virtual machine.

    If the open source community didn't exist, one could not even
    contemplate these possibilities. Or, rather, the game would be owned
    entirely by the bomb labs.

    Robert.
     
    Robert Myers, Mar 17, 2009
    #16
  17. YKhan

    Robert Myers Guest

    Re: Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

    On Mar 18, 11:06 am, chrisv <> wrote:
    > Robert Myers wrote:
    > >Linux really isn't a suitable general-purpose desktop system,

    >
    > Err...  For large segments of the market, it certainly is.  And I
    > don't mean the "geek" segment.  I mean those who want secure PC
    > functionality for the Internet and document handling.


    Many people would be better off doing some and perhaps the most common
    tasks from Linux. Many people would be better off it they *had* to
    use Linux all the time. Neither of those statements makes Linux
    suitable as a general purpose desktop operating system.

     On the other
    > hand, if you need special Windows-only apps like Quicken or Zombie
    > Slaughter III, you might want to stay with Windows.
    >
    > > and I can't imagine that it ever will be.  

    >
    > Your imagination is quite limited.


    You have no idea how unintentionally funny you are being.

    Two of these groups are hardware groups, so an extended tussle over
    windows vs. linux is really off-topic.

    Robert.
     
    Robert Myers, Mar 18, 2009
    #17
  18. YKhan

    Robert Myers Guest

    Re: Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

    On Mar 18, 3:12 pm, Sebastian Kaliszewski
    <> wrote:
    > Robert Myers wrote:
    > > On Mar 18, 11:06 am, chrisv <> wrote:
    > >> Robert Myers wrote:
    > >>> Linux really isn't a suitable general-purpose desktop system,
    > >> Err...  For large segments of the market, it certainly is.  And I
    > >> don't mean the "geek" segment.  I mean those who want secure PC
    > >> functionality for the Internet and document handling.

    >
    > > Many people would be better off doing some and perhaps the most common
    > > tasks from Linux.  Many people would be better off it they *had* to
    > > use Linux all the time.  Neither of those statements makes Linux
    > > suitable as a general purpose desktop operating system.

    >
    > So how do you define a general purpose desktop operating system?
    >

    It doesn't matter very much how I define a general purpose desktop
    operating system. It's how the market that defines it that matters.

    If you're willing and able to cope with just *one* operating system,
    what will it be? For most end users, Linux is not currently a
    plausible answer to that question. There will always be something for
    which you need or wish you had a commercial OS.

    It's worth remembering that almost no one foresaw the attack of the
    killer micros. I flatter myself that I saw it as soon as I had used
    Visi-Calc on an Apple II. Whatever it is that corresponds to Visi-
    Calc on an Apple II, I haven't seen it yet. Perhaps I'm just getting
    old.

    The rules could change any time. Wintel is no more immortal than
    anything else. Well, there's COBOL and Fortran.

    Robert.
     
    Robert Myers, Mar 18, 2009
    #18
  19. YKhan

    Nate Edel Guest

    Re: Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

    In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips chrisv <> wrote:
    > Robert Myers wrote:
    > >It doesn't matter very much how I define a general purpose desktop
    > >operating system. It's how the market that defines it that matters.

    >
    > Just because "most" people would not choose a product, does not mean
    > that it's not "suitable". That's like saying a Corvette isn't
    > suitable transportation, because, if people had to "cope with just
    > *one*" vehicle, most would choose something else.


    A Corvette is not general purpose transportation, though. It's a good
    sports car, and an adequate (but somewhat less than fuel efficient) 1-2
    person commuter, and an adequate (but somewhat less than fuel efficient) way
    to get two people and their golf bags to a golf game.

    Being a 2-door, 2-seater pretty much precludes being a general purpose car.

    OTOH, Linux isn't a Corvette, at least in most distributions. It's more like
    a regular sedan with a manual transmission and a diesel engine. Most people
    (in the US; I realize diesels are more popular elsewhere) are going to find
    those latter two as limitations, but most people can get used to them, and
    for those who are used to them, neither one limits the general utility, and
    both have the potential for significantly improving the performance.

    --
    Nate Edel http://www.cubiclehermit.com/
    preferred email |
    is "nate" at the | "I do have a cause, though. It's obscenity. I'm
    posting domain | for it."
     
    Nate Edel, Mar 19, 2009
    #19
  20. YKhan

    Nate Edel Guest

    In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Sebastian Kaliszewski <> wrote:
    > Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > > Although my Canon A470 digital camera (for example) can be read as USB
    > > mass device, the following applies: You cannot use any of the Canon
    > > utilities that come with the camera as it has no Linux support.

    >
    > I've yot to find camera specific bundled software which is not total
    > crap.


    Digital Photo Pro which comes with the EOS Cameras for doing RAW conversions
    isn't crap. It's not as good as Adobe's Camera Raw plugin for Photoshop,
    but it's significantly better than any of the free alternatives.

    Then again, I'm fairly sure it runs under Wine or at least Crossover, if you
    absolutely have to use it.

    > > Canon still makes the best cameras, so why settle for an inferior
    > > product.

    >
    > Simply use good software with that good camera, not some bundled crap.


    Which doesn't require a driver; popping the card out and putting it into a
    card reader is much quicker.

    Even if you want to read it directly, it looks like it will work with
    Gphoto2.

    --
    Nate Edel http://www.cubiclehermit.com/
    preferred email |
    is "nate" at the | "I do have a cause, though. It's obscenity. I'm
    posting domain | for it."
     
    Nate Edel, Mar 19, 2009
    #20
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