Font management

Discussion in 'Apple' started by sawney beane, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    I have Tiger. I have more than 400 fonts, which makes it hard to format
    a document.

    I ran Monolingual to get rid of non-English fonts. Somehow I still have
    Oriental and Arabic fonts.

    My fonts are in four places: the System folder, the Library, my user
    Library, and my Classic System folder. Linotype Font Explorer shows ten
    font families that have been copied to more than one location. If I
    delete some copies, in what location should I leave one?

    LFE can place all fonts that did not come with OSX in a folder. That
    sounds like a start. If I find I need one of those fonts, to what
    location should I move it?
     
    sawney beane, Jul 3, 2006
    #1
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  2. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> I have Tiger. I have more than 400 fonts, which makes it hard to format
    >> a document.
    >>
    >> I ran Monolingual to get rid of non-English fonts. Somehow I still have
    >> Oriental and Arabic fonts.

    >
    > Monolingual doesn't delete fonts. Read the documentation.


    The documentation says it removes files. Where does it say it doesn't
    remove fonts? How did it save me 750 MB if none of those files were fonts?

    >
    >> My fonts are in four places: the System folder, the Library, my user
    >> Library, and my Classic System folder. Linotype Font Explorer shows ten
    >> font families that have been copied to more than one location. If I
    >> delete some copies, in what location should I leave one?

    >
    > Pick either /Library or ~/Library
    >
    >> LFE can place all fonts that did not come with OSX in a folder. That
    >> sounds like a start. If I find I need one of those fonts, to what
    >> location should I move it?

    >
    > Read the LFE documentation (Help menu).
    >
    > Really.


    I spent a long time reading the LFE documentation before I posted here.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #2
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  3. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 17:48:06 -0500, sawney beane wrote (in article
    <>):

    > I have Tiger. I have more than 400 fonts, which makes it hard to format a
    > document.


    I also run Tiger (10.4.7) and I have more than 2,000 fonts, but I've never
    had a problem formatting a document and am puzzled what the difficulty is.

    > I ran Monolingual to get rid of non-English fonts. Somehow I still have
    > Oriental and Arabic fonts.


    I felt no need to purge the system of non-English fonts. My understanding,
    possibly wrong, is that such fonts in System/Library/Fonts should not be
    removed.

    > My fonts are in four places: the System folder, the Library, my user
    > Library, and my Classic System folder. Linotype Font Explorer shows ten
    > font families that have been copied to more than one location. If I
    > delete some copies, in what location should I leave one?


    I have all of my fonts in either /System/Library/Fonts or in /Library/Fonts.
    I'm not running Classic but have moved the Classic fonts to /Library/Fonts.
    My font management tool of choice is Font Book, the default font manager that
    comes with OS X. I have used Font Book's export facility to encapsulate each
    font family within a containing folder and have clustered those folders
    within a "source" folder the name of which identifies the source of the
    contained font folders. Font Book can be used to disable redundant versions
    of a font.

    > LFE can place all fonts that did not come with OSX in a folder. That
    > sounds like a start. If I find I need one of those fonts, to what
    > location should I move it?


    The one capability missing from Font Book is automatic activation of fonts,
    but to be honest, this is something the need of which has never been very
    important to me. Perhaps if I had it I would feel different, and maybe it
    will appear with Leopard.

    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #3
  4. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Dave Balderstone wrote:
    >>> In article <>, sawney beane
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I have Tiger. I have more than 400 fonts, which makes it hard to format
    >>>> a document.
    >>>>
    >>>> I ran Monolingual to get rid of non-English fonts. Somehow I still have
    >>>> Oriental and Arabic fonts.
    >>> Monolingual doesn't delete fonts. Read the documentation.

    >> The documentation says it removes files. Where does it say it doesn't
    >> remove fonts? How did it save me 750 MB if none of those files were fonts?

    >
    > Does it say it removes fonts? It didn't remove yours, nor has it ever
    > removed fonts on my system. It removes localization files from within
    > application bundles.


    I indicated that I had assumed Monolingual removed fonts. You told me
    to read the documentation. I thought you meant the documentation said
    it didn't remove fonts. I reread it and still didn't find that part.

    >
    >>>> LFE can place all fonts that did not come with OSX in a folder. That
    >>>> sounds like a start. If I find I need one of those fonts, to what
    >>>> location should I move it?
    >>> Read the LFE documentation (Help menu).
    >>>
    >>> Really.

    >> I spent a long time reading the LFE documentation before I posted here.

    >
    > Then do you not understand that LFE activates fonts regardless of their
    > location? That you do not have to move a font if you find you need one
    > activated?
    >
    > I use LFE on my Mac and Suitcase on other Macs at work, to manage
    > nearly 4,000 fonts, BTW.


    How much of your knowledge came from the Help menu with no need for
    experience? If you hadn't told I would not have guessed LFE activated
    fonts from the FontsRemovedFromSystem folder

    I do not know if I must launch LFE for my system to search for fonts.
    The LFE documentation says all fonts from all folders are loaded into
    memory on booting up. Is that true? It sounds like a lot of memory.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #4
  5. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:53:13 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote
    (in article <030720061853139797%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>):

    > "Font Locations All fonts located at any of the following paths will be
    > loaded into memory when your computer is started.
    > € <user>/Library/Fonts: Fonts in this folder are available only to this
    > particular user, who then has complete control over the folder's contents.
    > € /Library/Fonts: Fonts in this folder are available to all users of a
    > particular computer and not required by the operating system to run. Users
    > with system administrator privileges can add, remove and modify the folder's
    > contents.
    > € /System/Library/Fonts: Contains the default fonts required by the
    > operating system to run and should not be altered. These fonts are available
    > to all users and cannot be deactivated.
    > € /System Folder/Fonts: If Mac OS Classic is installed, fonts in this
    > folder are available to all users."




    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #5
  6. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:11:36 -0500, TaliesinSoft wrote
    (in article <>):

    [in my immediately preceding posting in this thread]

    > I also run Tiger (10.4.7) and I have more than 2,000 fonts, but I've never
    > had a problem formatting a document and am puzzled what the difficulty is.


    Oops, I made a misstatement. In actuality, according to Font Book I have
    1,157 fonts and according to TypeSet I have 1,157 families which contain a
    total of 1,663 typefaces.

    That aside, Apple's own Font Book is my "manager" and TypeSet is my
    "explorer".

    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #6
  7. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 20:39:28 -0500, TaliesinSoft wrote
    (in article <>):

    > On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:53:13 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote
    > (in article <030720061853139797%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>):
    >
    >> "Font Locations All fonts located at any of the following paths will be
    >> loaded into memory when your computer is started.
    >> € <user>/Library/Fonts: Fonts in this folder are available only to this
    >> particular user, who then has complete control over the folder's contents.
    >> € /Library/Fonts: Fonts in this folder are available to all users of a
    >> particular computer and not required by the operating system to run. Users
    >> with system administrator privileges can add, remove and modify the
    >> folder's
    >> contents.
    >> € /System/Library/Fonts: Contains the default fonts required by the
    >> operating system to run and should not be altered. These fonts are
    >> available
    >> to all users and cannot be deactivated.
    >> € /System Folder/Fonts: If Mac OS Classic is installed, fonts in this
    >> folder are available to all users."



    Oops, oops, oops and a big "I'm sorry!" for clicking on the wrong button and
    submitting an incomplete posting.


    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #7
  8. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> How much of your knowledge came from the Help menu with no need for
    >> experience?

    >
    > I've been using Macs in publishing since the late '80s. My knowledge
    > comes from both experience and reading documentation.


    I started with an IBM 1620 in 1989 but didn't get a Mac until 1986.
    Tiger and these two utilities are new to me. I haven't found as much in
    the documentation as you say I should have found.

    >
    >> If you hadn't told I would not have guessed LFE activated
    >> fonts from the FontsRemovedFromSystem folder

    >
    > The help file says, in "Import Fonts": "Drag & Drop files or folders on
    > the Sources or the font list." It is also quite clear on activating and
    > deactivating fonts once they are imported into LFE.


    Why would I want to import? I want to put non-OEM fonts into a
    FontsRemovedFromSystem folder to see if I have any call for them. So
    far I haven't seen documentation that LFE activates fonts in that folder.

    >
    >> I do not know if I must launch LFE for my system to search for fonts.

    >
    > If LFE is not running, how can it be used for anything?


    I can dial up without launching Internet Connect.

    >
    >> The LFE documentation says all fonts from all folders are loaded into
    >> memory on booting up. Is that true? It sounds like a lot of memory.

    >
    > No, it says that all fonts in the four OS-defined font folders will be
    > loaded into memory. In the "Font Locations" item:
    >
    > "Font Locations
    > All fonts located at any of the following paths will be loaded into
    > memory when your computer is started.
    > € <user>/Library/Fonts: Fonts in this folder are available only to
    > this particular user, who then has complete control over the folder's
    > contents.
    > € /Library/Fonts: Fonts in this folder are available to all users
    > of a particular computer and not required by the operating system to
    > run. Users with system administrator privileges can add, remove and
    > modify the folder's contents.
    > € /System/Library/Fonts: Contains the default fonts required by the
    > operating system to run and should not be altered. These fonts are
    > available to all users and cannot be deactivated.
    > € /System Folder/Fonts: If Mac OS Classic is installed, fonts in
    > this folder are available to all users."


    That includes all 406 MB of my fonts. If LFE puts it all in memory,
    that's a good reason not to run LFE.

    >
    > I have a sense we are talking at cross-purposes. Let me ask you what
    > may sound like a basic question. It's not meant to be condescending or
    > insulting, I sincerely would like to assist you in getting your fonts
    > under control.
    >
    > The question is: What do you believe the term "font management" means,
    > and how do you think Linotype FontExplorer fits into that definition on
    > your Mac?


    My fonts menu in Appleworks has approximately 200 items. It's hard even
    to control scrolling in a menu that long. I asked how to remove items
    from that menu. I was told to get a font manager.

    If it were up to me, I'd get by on ten fonts.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #8
  9. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    TaliesinSoft wrote:
    > On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 17:48:06 -0500, sawney beane wrote (in article
    > <>):
    >
    >> I have Tiger. I have more than 400 fonts, which makes it hard to format a
    >> document.

    >
    > I also run Tiger (10.4.7) and I have more than 2,000 fonts, but I've never
    > had a problem formatting a document and am puzzled what the difficulty is.


    In Appleworks I have a problem running down a menu of 200 to pick the
    font I want.

    >
    >> I ran Monolingual to get rid of non-English fonts. Somehow I still have
    >> Oriental and Arabic fonts.

    >
    > I felt no need to purge the system of non-English fonts. My understanding,
    > possibly wrong, is that such fonts in System/Library/Fonts should not be
    > removed.


    Asian fonts on my menu in Appleworks are in my way.

    >
    >> My fonts are in four places: the System folder, the Library, my user
    >> Library, and my Classic System folder. Linotype Font Explorer shows ten
    >> font families that have been copied to more than one location. If I
    >> delete some copies, in what location should I leave one?

    >
    > I have all of my fonts in either /System/Library/Fonts or in /Library/Fonts.
    > I'm not running Classic but have moved the Classic fonts to /Library/Fonts.
    > My font management tool of choice is Font Book, the default font manager that
    > comes with OS X. I have used Font Book's export facility to encapsulate each
    > font family within a containing folder and have clustered those folders
    > within a "source" folder the name of which identifies the source of the
    > contained font folders. Font Book can be used to disable redundant versions
    > of a font.


    I don't know why some fonts are in my user library. Maybe it's a scheme
    to keep one user's fonts from cluttering another user's menus.

    >
    >> LFE can place all fonts that did not come with OSX in a folder. That
    >> sounds like a start. If I find I need one of those fonts, to what
    >> location should I move it?

    >
    > The one capability missing from Font Book is automatic activation of fonts,
    > but to be honest, this is something the need of which has never been very
    > important to me. Perhaps if I had it I would feel different, and maybe it
    > will appear with Leopard.
    >


    How do you activate them? In Classic I would make a folder to store the
    ones I didn't want active.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #9
  10. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:38:48 -0500, sawney beane wrote (in article
    <>):

    > TaliesinSoft wrote:
    >> On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 17:48:06 -0500, sawney beane wrote (in article
    >> <>):
    >>
    >>> I have Tiger. I have more than 400 fonts, which makes it hard to format
    >>> a document.

    >>
    >> I also run Tiger (10.4.7) and I have more than 2,000 fonts, but I've
    >> never had a problem formatting a document and am puzzled what the
    >> difficulty is.

    >
    > In Appleworks I have a problem running down a menu of 200 to pick the font
    > I want.


    Apple's Font Book allows one to enable and disable fonts. Disabled fonts are
    not removed from the fonts folders but they will not appear in the font menus
    of applications. Also with Font Book one can create "collections" which are
    arbitrary groupings of fonts. Collections also can be disabled and enabled at
    will.

    >>> I ran Monolingual to get rid of non-English fonts. Somehow I still have
    >>> Oriental and Arabic fonts.

    >>
    >> I felt no need to purge the system of non-English fonts. My
    >> understanding, possibly wrong, is that such fonts in System/Library/Fonts
    >> should not be removed.

    >
    > Asian fonts on my menu in Appleworks are in my way.
    >
    >>
    >>> My fonts are in four places: the System folder, the Library, my user
    >>> Library, and my Classic System folder. Linotype Font Explorer shows ten
    >>> font families that have been copied to more than one location. If I
    >>> delete some copies, in what location should I leave one?

    >>
    >> I have all of my fonts in either /System/Library/Fonts or in
    >> /Library/Fonts. I'm not running Classic but have moved the Classic fonts
    >> to /Library/Fonts. My font management tool of choice is Font Book, the
    >> default font manager that comes with OS X. I have used Font Book's export
    >> facility to encapsulate each font family within a containing folder and
    >> have clustered those folders within a "source" folder the name of which
    >> identifies the source of the contained font folders. Font Book can be
    >> used to disable redundant versions of a font.

    >
    > I don't know why some fonts are in my user library. Maybe it's a scheme
    > to keep one user's fonts from cluttering another user's menus.





    >>> LFE can place all fonts that did not come with OSX in a folder. That
    >>> sounds like a start. If I find I need one of those fonts, to what
    >>> location should I move it?

    >>
    >> The one capability missing from Font Book is automatic activation of
    >> fonts, but to be honest, this is something the need of which has never
    >> been very important to me. Perhaps if I had it I would feel different,
    >> and maybe it will appear with Leopard.
    >>

    >
    > How do you activate them? In Classic I would make a folder to store the
    > ones I didn't want active.


    As mentioned above, using Font Book, a disabled font will not appear in the
    font menu of an application. If one needs to use a particular font one can
    enable (activate) it individually or enable (activate) a collection in which
    it is included.

    As an aside, Font Book includes additional useful features such as being able
    to identify and discard faulty fonts and, as mentioned in my original posting
    in this thread, to cluster all of the various files constituting a family
    into a single folder containing all of those files.

    I find Font Book to be an exceedingly useful utility, one that blends well
    into the file structure of the Mac. Not to be forgotten is that it is free!

    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #10
  11. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> My fonts menu in Appleworks has approximately 200 items. It's hard even
    >> to control scrolling in a menu that long. I asked how to remove items
    >> from that menu. I was told to get a font manager.
    >>
    >> If it were up to me, I'd get by on ten fonts.

    >
    > Ah. I understand.
    >
    > Sit back, grab a mug of tea, and let me explain...
    >
    > As you know , there are four locations (three if you don't have
    > classic, and more than four if you have a network server, but leave
    > that alone for the purposes of this lecture) where you will possibly
    > have fonts installed on your Mac.
    >
    > Well, if you run any Adobe software there are even more, but never mind.
    >
    > Apple, in its infinite wisdom, installs far more fonts than anyone
    > needs. And if you load Office, or any Adobe app, you get even more
    > fonts. So your font menu grows, and grows, and grows.


    Yes, I tried Office. I hesitated, but it has an uninstall utility. I
    wonder if it left its fonts.

    >
    > "Dammit!" you say. "I don't WANT all these farking balsted fonts! I'll
    > just delete the sumbitses!"
    >
    > And then you discover that your install of OS X goes insane, because
    > you've deleted a required font.
    >
    > There are only a few fonts that you MUST have installed in OS X, but
    > you MUST have them installed.
    >
    > My list is as follows. Others have shorter lists, but this ones servers
    > me well, being responsible for fonts and font management at a newspaper
    > and magazine publishing company...
    >
    > /System/Library/Fonts/
    > Apple LiGothic Medium.dfont
    > AppleGothic.dfont
    > AquaKanaBold.otf
    > AquaKanaRegular.otf
    > Geneva.dfont
    > Helvetica.dfont
    > Keyboard.dfont
    > LastResort.dfont
    > LucidaGrande.dfont
    > Monaco.dfont
    > Symbol.dfont
    > Times.dfont
    > ZapfDingbats.dfont
    >
    > /Library/Fonts/
    > HelveticaNeue.dfont
    > Times New Roman
    >
    > ~/Library/Fonts/ (User home directory)
    > Empty of all fonts
    >
    > /System Folder/Fonts/ (If Classic is loaded)
    > Empty of all fonts
    >
    > Any other fonts can be moved into another folder, anywhere on your
    > system, and will be deactivated by doing so (after logging out, or
    > rebooting).
    >
    > Using a font manager like LFE, you can create sets of fonts, and load
    > either individual fonts or sets of fonts on demand. Think of it as an
    > easier way of moving fonts ot the default folders if it helps.
    >
    > So, you can move all the fonts that are not required to your
    > FontsRemovedFromSystem folder. Then, you drag that folder into the LFE
    > window.
    >
    > LFE now "knows" about those fonts, but they are not active in your
    > system.
    >
    > When you need a font that you've moved to your FontsRemovedFromSystem
    > folder, you can simply launch LFE and activate it. If you quit LFE,
    > though, the font will be deactivated. You need LFE running as a font
    > manager if you want to change your active fonts on the fly.
    >
    > If you add LFE to your Startup Items, you can add fonts to it from any
    > folder, and activate/deactivate them at will. As well, if you open a
    > document that uses an inactive font that LFE knows about, it can
    > automatically make that font active for you.
    >
    > Is that clear as mud?
    >
    > Feel free to ask me to elucidate on anything I haven't been clear about.


    If I run Classic with no fonts in its System Folder, can it find fonts?

    If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
    would I salvage the situation?

    Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts? For the ones that aren't novelties,
    I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
    Within those categories, they all look similar to me.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #11
  12. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    TaliesinSoft wrote:
    > On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:38:48 -0500, sawney beane wrote (in article
    > <>):
    >
    >
    > As mentioned above, using Font Book, a disabled font will not appear in the
    > font menu of an application. If one needs to use a particular font one can
    > enable (activate) it individually or enable (activate) a collection in which
    > it is included.
    >
    > As an aside, Font Book includes additional useful features such as being able
    > to identify and discard faulty fonts and, as mentioned in my original posting
    > in this thread, to cluster all of the various files constituting a family
    > into a single folder containing all of those files.
    >
    > I find Font Book to be an exceedingly useful utility, one that blends well
    > into the file structure of the Mac. Not to be forgotten is that it is free!
    >


    Thanks. I see that if I open Font Book I'll find information with the
    Help Reader.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #12
  13. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
    >> would I salvage the situation?

    >
    > In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
    > missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
    > reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
    >
    > But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
    > something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
    > won't help you recover.


    Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
    condescending and insulting?
    >
    >> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?

    >
    > I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
    > years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
    > have multiples of our library.
    >
    >> For the ones that aren't novelties,
    >> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
    >> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.

    >
    > Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
    > typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
    > viewpoint.
    >

    You bragged about how many fonts you handle. You invited me to ask
    questions. Because I don't know the answer to the question I asked, you
    tell me I don't understand and have a limited viewpoint. Are you sure
    you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #13
  14. sawney beane <> writes:

    > Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
    > condescending and insulting?
    > >
    > >> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?

    > >
    > > I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
    > > years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
    > > have multiples of our library.
    > >
    > >> For the ones that aren't novelties,
    > >> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
    > >> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.

    > >
    > > Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
    > > typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
    > > viewpoint.
    > >

    > You bragged about how many fonts you handle.


    I don't think he bragged. He simply stated the fact that he has 4,000
    fonts, most of which he probably actually needs, even though *you* may
    only need a few. In fact, he stated that other companies have far
    more fonts than he has. Doesn't sound like bragging, just the facts.

    > You invited me to ask questions. Because I don't know the answer to
    > the question I asked, you tell me I don't understand and have a
    > limited viewpoint.


    Yup, he was very kind and helpful in inviting you to ask. Although
    you only see the need for a few fonts, clearly some places need more
    than a few. It's not a problem that you don't need more or even if
    you don't understand why others do. That's your limited viewpoint --
    you just haven't seen those other places.

    > Are you sure you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?


    Looks to me like he was trying to provide some useful information
    (which I personally appreciate!), though you didn't even bother to say
    thanks. Perhaps there's a language difference here. Anyway, there's
    really no point in insulting people here (or feeling insulted) if
    you're here to gain information. Just ask for information, or share
    information, and we all gain.

    Martin
     
    Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu, Jul 4, 2006
    #14
  15. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Dave Balderstone wrote:
    >>> In article <>, sawney beane
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
    >>>> would I salvage the situation?
    >>> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
    >>> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
    >>> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
    >>>
    >>> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
    >>> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
    >>> won't help you recover.

    >> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
    >> condescending and insulting?

    >
    > Turn of a phrase. I was not being insulting or condescending.


    You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.
    It would have been foolish to use your list without knowing how to
    recover. You invented a scenario where I would delete fonts you said
    were necessary, then come whining to you.

    >
    >>>> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?
    >>> I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
    >>> years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
    >>> have multiples of our library.
    >>>
    >>>> For the ones that aren't novelties,
    >>>> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
    >>>> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.
    >>> Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
    >>> typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
    >>> viewpoint.
    >>>

    >> You bragged about how many fonts you handle.

    >
    > No, I stated a fact that was intended to demonstrate that I have some
    > experience in font management.


    Did you think if you didn't brag I would assume you did not have some
    experience?

    >
    >> You invited me to ask
    >> questions.

    >
    > Yes, I did. I was sincere in assisting you understand font management
    > as you had demonstrated you did not.
    >
    >> Because I don't know the answer to the question I asked, you
    >> tell me I don't understand and have a limited viewpoint.

    >
    > No, I said that because you made a stupid comment about fonts that
    > demonstrated you indeed do not understand, and in fact do have a
    > limited viewpoint.
    >
    >> Are you sure you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?

    >
    > Positive. However, given your attitude I may start.


    I said regular fonts within a category looked similar to me. Instead of
    answering my question, you call it a stupid comment, and you insist you
    aren't being condescending or insulting.
    >
    > Look, I went through considerable effort to explain font management
    > under OS X to you, without you expressing any appreciation whatsoever.
    > I'm done with that now. Delete whatever fonts you want, move them
    > between folders, refuse to grasp elementary concepts, argue with
    > people, get insulted... I no longer care and will no longer expend any
    > energy assisting you.


    You're right, I haven't thanked you. I've been too busy on wild goose
    chases rereading documentation and trying to make sense of your "That's
    for me to know and you to find out," answers.

    I'm grateful that James Ryan took the trouble to respond. Don't you
    think he made a great case for Font Book?
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #15
  16. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:38:57 -0500, sawney beane wrote
    (in article <>):

    > I'm grateful that James Ryan took the trouble to respond. Don't you think he


    > made a great case for Font Book?


    I appreciate the complement.

    One thing to take into mind is that while Font Book is, at least in my mind,
    a great tool for managing one's own font collection, it has no facilities
    that I am aware of for sharing a font collection amongst multiple users.
    That's where such as Linotype Font Explorer (have I got that right?) shines!

    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #16
  17. sawney beane

    TaliesinSoft Guest

    On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:15:58 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote
    (in article <040720061215584224%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>):

    > In article <>,
    > TaliesinSoft <> wrote:
    >
    >> That's where such as Linotype Font Explorer (have I got that right?) shines!

    >
    > No, LFE is single user.
    >
    > We use Suitcase Server to manage font sets among about 20 users.


    Thanks for the correction. Somehow I had it in my mind that LFE was also
    multi-user.

    --
    James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas .....
     
    TaliesinSoft, Jul 4, 2006
    #17
  18. sawney beane

    sawney beane Guest

    Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > In article <>, sawney beane
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.
    >> It would have been foolish to use your list without knowing how to
    >> recover. You invented a scenario where I would delete fonts you said
    >> were necessary, then come whining to you.

    >
    > I think you need some serious work on your reading and comprehension
    > skills.
    >
    > I gave you a list of fonts NOT to delete.
    >
    > And now, I'm entirely done with you.


    How would an omission from a list of fonts disable a computer unless it
    was a list of necessary fonts?

    Congratulations, I see you have been trolling me. I wonder if I'm the
    only one you fooled.
     
    sawney beane, Jul 4, 2006
    #18
  19. sawney beane

    J.J. O'Shea Guest

    On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:38:57 -0400, sawney beane wrote
    (in article <>):

    > Dave Balderstone wrote:
    >> In article <>, sawney beane
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Dave Balderstone wrote:
    >>>> In article <>, sawney beane
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
    >>>>> would I salvage the situation?
    >>>> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
    >>>> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
    >>>> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
    >>>>
    >>>> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
    >>>> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
    >>>> won't help you recover.
    >>> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
    >>> condescending and insulting?

    >>
    >> Turn of a phrase. I was not being insulting or condescending.

    >
    > You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.


    He was correct.

    A really good way to find out would be to remove, say, Helvetica.dfont.
    LucidaGrande.dfont, or Keyboard.dfont from the /System/Library/Fonts folder.

    > It would have been foolish to use your list without knowing how to
    > recover.


    He said to leave 'em be, and gave specific examples. I'd go further and say
    that users should never, ever, add or subtract any font from the
    /System/Library/Fonts folder. There are some you can get away with moving,
    but there are others which will cause your Mac to die a miserable death if
    removed.

    > You invented a scenario where I would delete fonts you said
    > were necessary, then come whining to you.


    Oh, my. To repeat: he said to leave 'em alone. Let's make it clear:

    DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES MESS WITH THE FONTS INSIDE THE
    /SYSTEM/LIBARY/FONTS FOLDER. Do not touch. Leave 'em be. Clear now?

    >
    >>
    >>>>> Why would anyone need 2,000 fonts?
    >>>> I already told you that I work in publishing. Have done nearly 30
    >>>> years. And I said 4,000 not 2,000. I know publishing companies that
    >>>> have multiples of our library.
    >>>>
    >>>>> For the ones that aren't novelties,
    >>>>> I see two choices: serif or non-serif and fixed or variable pitch.
    >>>>> Within those categories, they all look similar to me.
    >>>> Yes, well... You obviously don't understand or apppreciate fonts or
    >>>> typography. So it doesn't surprise me that you have such a limited
    >>>> viewpoint.
    >>>>
    >>> You bragged about how many fonts you handle.


    2,000 fonts ain't much. I've got about 5,000 myself, and I used to have more.
    (I _do_ have more at the office...) I only have a few hundred loaded at any
    one time, but all 5k are available if I want/need them.

    >>
    >> No, I stated a fact that was intended to demonstrate that I have some
    >> experience in font management.

    >
    > Did you think if you didn't brag I would assume you did not have some
    > experience?


    Damn, boy, he was trying to help you. And he gave you good, basic, advice.

    >
    >>
    >>> You invited me to ask
    >>> questions.

    >>
    >> Yes, I did. I was sincere in assisting you understand font management
    >> as you had demonstrated you did not.
    >>
    >>> Because I don't know the answer to the question I asked, you
    >>> tell me I don't understand and have a limited viewpoint.

    >>
    >> No, I said that because you made a stupid comment about fonts that
    >> demonstrated you indeed do not understand, and in fact do have a
    >> limited viewpoint.
    >>
    >>> Are you sure you aren't trying to be condescending and insulting?

    >>
    >> Positive. However, given your attitude I may start.

    >
    > I said regular fonts within a category looked similar to me. Instead of
    > answering my question, you call it a stupid comment, and you insist you
    > aren't being condescending or insulting.


    You don't understand font management if you really think there's little or no
    difference between Optima, Futura, Helvetica, (any of the Helveticas, there
    are a lot of them...) and Monaco. They're all sans-serif fonts, after all.
    And Courier, Times, Caslon, Bookman, and Palatino are all serif fonts. (Hint:
    there's a monospace serif and a monospace sans-serif font mixed in there,
    guess which ones...) Things are rather more complex than you think, and he
    was trying to point you in the correct direction.

    >>
    >> Look, I went through considerable effort to explain font management
    >> under OS X to you, without you expressing any appreciation whatsoever.
    >> I'm done with that now. Delete whatever fonts you want, move them
    >> between folders, refuse to grasp elementary concepts, argue with
    >> people, get insulted... I no longer care and will no longer expend any
    >> energy assisting you.

    >
    > You're right, I haven't thanked you. I've been too busy on wild goose
    > chases rereading documentation and trying to make sense of your "That's
    > for me to know and you to find out," answers.


    Sigh. Look there's four main places to find fonts in OS X:

    1 System/Library/Fonts. System fonts live here. Do not touch.

    2 Library/Fonts. Fonts which can be seen by all OS X users live here. Put
    fonts there if you don't have a font managing application and you want all
    users to see the font.

    3 System Folder/Fonts. Classic fonts live here. Put fonts here if you want
    users to be able to see them when they're running Classic. Any fonts placed
    here will also be visible to any user running a regular OS X app. Note that
    fonts in Library/Fonts will NOT be visible to Classic users. Nor will fonts
    from System/Library/Fonts be visible to Classic users.

    4 username/Library/Fonts. Fonts placed here will be visible to just that
    user.

    Some applications, particularly apps from Adobe and Microsoft, have their own
    private font folders.

    If you use a font manager other than Apple's Font Book, that font manager
    will usually have a single centralized place where it stores fonts. You may
    take fonts out of the Library/Fonts folder (except for anything with
    'Helvetica' or 'Times' in its name for reasons which make sense to Apple) and
    from the username/Library/Fonts folder and from the various private font
    folders used by some apps and put them in the centralized folder for the font
    manager to handle. The font manager will autolaunch them if they're needed,
    and also will automatically unload them when the app is quit. (If you've set
    things that way, of course.)

    >
    > I'm grateful that James Ryan took the trouble to respond. Don't you
    > think he made a great case for Font Book?


    Font Book is perfectly adequate if you have a few dozen or a few score fonts.
    It falls down badly when you have a lot of fonts. It should handle your
    situation quite well. It'd go belly-up at the number of fonts I have, and as
    it doesn't autolaunch (or at least it didn't the last time I tried it) it's
    not really designed for the way I, or many people who must deal with large
    numbers of fonts, work.

    I use Suitcase at work, and Linotype Font Explorer at home. Personally, I
    find Font Explorer to be much easier to work with than Font Book. I've seen
    it suggested that Apple scrap Font Book and replace it with Font Explorer,
    and I'd say that this would be a good idea.

    --
    email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.
     
    J.J. O'Shea, Jul 4, 2006
    #19
  20. In article <>,
    J.J. O'Shea <> wrote:

    > On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:38:57 -0400, sawney beane wrote
    > (in article <>):
    >
    > > Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > >> In article <>, sawney beane
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> Dave Balderstone wrote:
    > >>>> In article <>, sawney beane
    > >>>> <> wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> If I were to remove a font needed by OS X and OS X wouldn't run, how
    > >>>>> would I salvage the situation?
    > >>>> In Tiger, you'd boot from the install CD, run Terminal app, copy the
    > >>>> missing font back to where it belonged and reboot. Or, you'd just
    > >>>> reinstall the OS if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> But I've given you a list of required OS X fonts, so if you do
    > >>>> something that foolish, you're on your own. Don't come whining to me. I
    > >>>> won't help you recover.
    > >>> Why would I come whining to you? Are you sure you aren't trying to be
    > >>> condescending and insulting?
    > >>
    > >> Turn of a phrase. I was not being insulting or condescending.

    > >
    > > You said a single omission from a fonts list could disable my computer.

    >
    > He was correct.
    >
    > A really good way to find out would be to remove, say, Helvetica.dfont.
    > LucidaGrande.dfont, or Keyboard.dfont from the /System/Library/Fonts folder.


    Out of curiousity, does anyone know why this is the case?

    In classic, you could remove all fonts from the system and things would
    continue to function (provided that the term 'function' is not taken to
    hold any aesthetic component given that everything would show up in the
    ROM version of Chicago).

    Under OS X, I can certainly understand why it is necessary to have at
    least one font with a reasonable character repetoire installed, but I am
    unclear on why the system requires that this be a *specific* font -- in
    the case of Helvetica this is particularly irksome given that one
    frequently requires a specific foundry's version to be installed, and
    swapping system fonts around can be annoying.

    Given that the system is already designed to look for alternatives in
    cases where a particular glyph is missing from a selected font, what are
    the programmatic advantages of designing an OS such that particular
    fonts must be present to function properly?

    Mostly just curious,

    Andre

    --
    n.b. there are no monotremes in my email address
     
    Andre G. Isaak, Jul 5, 2006
    #20
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