1. This forum section is a read-only archive which contains old newsgroup posts. If you wish to post a query, please do so in one of our main forum sections (here). This way you will get a faster, better response from the members on Motherboard Point.

Has Sony got plans to morph the PS3 technology into a full-blown multi-media PC ?

Discussion in 'Nvidia' started by John Lewis, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. John Lewis

    John Lewis Guest

    See:-

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html

    What is to really stop Sony taking just one more step beyond the
    article and morphing the PS3 hardware architecture and silicon into
    something we know and love, a full-blown desktop Personal Computer,
    (with expansion-slots, SATA ports etc ) but with powerful multimedia
    capability, and an immediate target port for PS3 games ? Putting
    Lindows on it, and then encouraging a few of the key multimedia Mac
    (and PC) developers to climb on board ? The powerful multi-threading
    capability is a huge benefit for real-time multimedia applications
    such as music programs, video animation and real-time video editors. I
    can visualize some Mac developers chomping at the bit should Sony
    suggest making a full-blown multi-media PC. nVidia would have no
    trouble extending the PS3 peripheral hardware to provide the customary
    I/O and expansion-slots expected of a PC.

    The above article hints at the bigger ideas under Sony's hat. The
    Commodore-Amiga of the early 21st century, but with the hardware
    power needed for today's applications. Anybody intimately familiar
    with the C-A and its applications will relate immediately to the
    parallels between the C-A and Sony's hinted vision of the PS3. Might
    even break the OS hammer-locks of M$$ and Apple in a key growth
    area (multi-media) while fusing PCs and entertainment hardware. The
    suggested use of Linux may already be sending shivers up and
    down certain corporate spines.

    One might expect similar suggestions for the Xbox360. However,
    unlike Sony, M$$ has its vast current PC software base to protect.

    In the late 1980's, I did not see M$$ hurrying to embrace the
    Commodore-Amiga windowed- UI, multitasking OS, and A/V multi-media
    capability, when the PC was DOS with home-made UIs, 16-color
    and pip-squeak audio -- so why should M$ get off its rich backside
    now ?? Just make a game-console to bring in some bucks
    while pretending you competing are in the home entertainment
    business and then get back to the pee-cee's where all the gravy is...

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Jun 13, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. John Lewis

    Joe62 Guest

    I'd buy it in a second ... for $300 you get a full PC with that much
    power? Can't beat that.
     
    Joe62, Jun 13, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. John Lewis

    jussi Guest

    On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:20:52 GMT, (John Lewis)
    wrote:

    >http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html
    >
    >What is to really stop Sony taking just one more step beyond the
    >article and morphing the PS3 hardware architecture and silicon into
    >something we know and love, a full-blown desktop Personal Computer,


    One question: why do you think it would fly, when Commodore Amiga
    didn't? Not to mention that the software base of Windows PC is today
    even more transcendent that what the DOS PC software base was in Amiga
    days.

    Simply put: what would a PS3-PC have to offer over a x86-PC? Really?
    You can already run Linux on PCs, and someday the multimedia
    capabilities of x86-PC will outpace PS3-PC once again, just like it
    did for Amiga after a few years.

    Moreover, I bet a PS3-PC would also cost much more than a similar
    x86-PC due to more HW manufacturers, more competition, higher volumes
    etc.

    >(with expansion-slots, SATA ports etc ) but with powerful multimedia
    >capability, and an immediate target port for PS3 games ? Putting


    I hope you are not suggesting people would buy an expensive PS3-PC for
    playing PS3 games, when they can play them on a cheap PS3.

    I think Creative Labs or someone else tried to make a "console on a PC
    card" for PCs (a 3DO card), but it failed miserably.

    >Lindows on it, and then encouraging a few of the key multimedia Mac
    >(and PC) developers to climb on board ? The powerful multi-threading
    >capability is a huge benefit for real-time multimedia applications
    >such as music programs, video animation and real-time video editors. I


    Niche markets. They didn't keep Amiga nor AtariST afloat, and after
    awhile even PC surpassed both in those areas. Catch-22: there won't be
    many music/animation programs for PS3-PC because people are not yet
    buying it for that purpose, which means even less people would buy it
    for that purpose, etc.

    >The above article hints at the bigger ideas under Sony's hat. The
    >Commodore-Amiga of the early 21st century, but with the hardware
    >power needed for today's applications. Anybody intimately familiar
    >with the C-A and its applications will relate immediately to the
    >parallels between the C-A and Sony's hinted vision of the PS3. Might


    Me too. And as you might recall, Amiga failed after awhile. And today
    a new PS3-Amiga would have even less chance against the mammoth that
    Intel-Windows has become.
     
    jussi, Jun 13, 2005
    #3
  4. John Lewis

    jussi Guest

    On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:44:04 -0700, Joe62
    <> wrote:

    >I'd buy it in a second ... for $300 you get a full PC with that much
    >power? Can't beat that.


    LOL! I think it would probably cost more than $6000. Since it is not
    really a viable market for PS3 games because people play them on real
    PS3 instead, Sony would not subsidize its price by the game sales.
     
    jussi, Jun 13, 2005
    #4
  5. John Lewis

    John Lewis Guest

    On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:19:52 GMT, jussi <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:44:04 -0700, Joe62
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>I'd buy it in a second ... for $300 you get a full PC with that much
    >>power? Can't beat that.

    >
    >LOL! I think it would probably cost more than $6000.


    More like $600 plus peripherals and apps software.

    Consider again the Commodore Amiga 1200, Find a picture of one.
    Google it. $500 for a full-fledged computer including hard-disk,
    windowed UI, multi-tasking OS, full-stereo audio, 256 color,
    circa 1992.....

    Dead easy to add memory and PC-style peripherals including. PCIe
    expansion slots to the PS3, considering that nVidia is Sony's key
    hardware partner. Run under Linux with open-architecture like
    the Commodore-Amiga and a vast sea of multimedia developers
    would be flocking. The Commodore-Amiga and its OS were fully
    documented for third-party applications. 3 ROM-Kernel
    manuals ( Includes, Libraries, Devices ) 1 Hardware Manual.

    John Lewis


    >Since it is not
    >really a viable market for PS3 games because people play them on real
    >PS3 instead, Sony would not subsidize its price by the game sales.
    >
     
    John Lewis, Jun 14, 2005
    #5
  6. John Lewis

    John Lewis Guest

    On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:57:46 GMT, jussi <> wrote:

    >>

    >Me too. And as you might recall, Amiga failed after awhile.


    Commodore made the fatal mistake of not going after the Mac instead
    of the PC. They hired a failed IBM exec as CEO who then executed
    the fatal mistake, in spite of the shouts from the using Amiga
    community. Did you know that NewTek's Video Toaster was the
    highest selling desktop video editor/effects-unit of the 1990's? It
    sold somewhere around 60,000 units at ~ $1500 a pop.
    Target computer-- Commodore-Amiga.

    >a new PS3-Amiga would have even less chance against the mammoth that
    >Intel-Windows has become.


    Nope - not in multimedia. M$$ has been revising its multimedia
    (er) "strategy" every few weeks.... And Intel's architectures are
    optimized for massive data-handling, not multimedia. There are big
    chinks in the armor....... And a freely-available, very suitable,
    highly-reliable OS.

    John Lewis
    >
     
    John Lewis, Jun 14, 2005
    #6
  7. John Lewis

    jussi Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:43:24 GMT, (John Lewis)
    wrote:

    >>LOL! I think it would probably cost more than $6000.

    >
    >More like $600 plus peripherals and apps software.
    >
    >Consider again the Commodore Amiga 1200, Find a picture of one.
    >Google it. $500 for a full-fledged computer including hard-disk,
    >windowed UI, multi-tasking OS, full-stereo audio, 256 color,
    >circa 1992.....


    Amiga was already dying in 1992. See how much the desktop Amigas
    comparable to PCs of the time cost. New A4000 with fast CPUs etc.

    I don't know where you get the wrong idea that a full-fledged desktop
    PS3-PC would cost mere $600, when similar desktop PCs with much more
    competition and much higher volumes cost more than that. Sony would
    still need to get profit from their PS3-PC sales.

    Now, if you made the PS3-PC a fully integrated system like Amiga 500
    or A1200 (which would be cheaper), then it certainly would die off in
    a few years when PCs overshadow their capabilities. Just like Amigas
    died off when PCs overshadowed them with newer video cards, faster
    CPUs etc. Smaller Amigas could not keep up with their non-upgradeable/
    non-interchangeable and rigid architecture, nor the bigger Amigas with
    their ultra-expensive video cards etc., which you could get for PC for
    half the price, or less.

    >Dead easy to add memory and PC-style peripherals including. PCIe
    >expansion slots to the PS3, considering that nVidia is Sony's key
    >hardware partner. Run under Linux with open-architecture like
    >the Commodore-Amiga and a vast sea of multimedia developers
    >would be flocking.


    Why would they be flocking to it? The users are still on other
    platforms. They make software for the platforms where the paying
    customers are. Look at the PC vs console gaming argument, for example.
     
    jussi, Jun 14, 2005
    #7
  8. John Lewis

    jussi Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:58:15 GMT, (John Lewis)
    wrote:

    >>Me too. And as you might recall, Amiga failed after awhile.

    >
    >Commodore made the fatal mistake of not going after the Mac instead
    >of the PC.


    Hindsight.

    Maybe they went after PC because they already foresaw Mac was becoming
    a niche machine, and there was not enough money in the "Mac pie" to
    live on?

    How about AtariST, why did it fail? It went after the Mac pie with its
    MIDI sequencer and desktop publishing software, yet it died off even
    faster than Amiga?

    >Did you know that NewTek's Video Toaster was the
    >highest selling desktop video editor/effects-unit of the 1990's? It
    >sold somewhere around 60,000 units at ~ $1500 a pop.
    >Target computer-- Commodore-Amiga.


    Did it make Amiga a successful and viable desktop PC? No. It had a few
    years as low-cost video animation machine, that's all.

    >>a new PS3-Amiga would have even less chance against the mammoth that
    >>Intel-Windows has become.

    >
    >Nope - not in multimedia. M$$ has been revising its multimedia
    >(er) "strategy" every few weeks.... And Intel's architectures are
    >optimized for massive data-handling, not multimedia.


    This discussion already took place with Nintendo64 and PS2. Yeah,
    their architecture is so much better suited for "multimedia" than the
    archaic PC with its ancient 8-bit ISA slots and CGA graphics cards...
    yet it didn't take long for this "archaic" PC architecture to stomp
    them completely.

    I bet this same discussion will take place also with PS4, and PS5...
    ("But this time it will be different!")
     
    jussi, Jun 14, 2005
    #8
  9. John Lewis

    John Lewis Guest

    On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:58:39 GMT, jussi <> wrote:

    >On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:58:15 GMT, (John Lewis)
    >wrote:
    >
    >>>Me too. And as you might recall, Amiga failed after awhile.

    >>
    >>Commodore made the fatal mistake of not going after the Mac instead
    >>of the PC.

    >
    >Hindsight.
    >


    Foresight, actually. You did not witness the outcry from the Amiga
    user groups when the chase-IBM strategy was anounced...

    >Maybe they went after PC because they already foresaw Mac was becoming
    >a niche machine,


    Niche machine. Sure but it has survived and prospered in that niche.

    > and there was not enough money in the "Mac pie" to
    >live on?
    >


    There was, but short-sighted management with greedy eyes and no
    knowledge of the underlying technology grabbed for more, like the
    monkey with his hand stuck in the cookie-jar. Remember,
    C-A was headed up by a failed executive from IBM.

    >How about AtariST, why did it fail? It went after the Mac pie with its
    >MIDI sequencer and desktop publishing software, yet it died off even
    >faster than Amiga?
    >

    No hardware or software advantage over the Mac. The Amiga had
    the custom A/V hardware and the genuine multi-tasking OS.

    >>Did you know that NewTek's Video Toaster was the
    >>highest selling desktop video editor/effects-unit of the 1990's? It
    >>sold somewhere around 60,000 units at ~ $1500 a pop.
    >>Target computer-- Commodore-Amiga.

    >
    >Did it make Amiga a successful and viable desktop PC? No. It had a few
    >years as low-cost video animation machine, that's all.
    >
    >>>a new PS3-Amiga would have even less chance against the mammoth that
    >>>Intel-Windows has become.

    >>
    >>Nope - not in multimedia. M$$ has been revising its multimedia
    >>(er) "strategy" every few weeks.... And Intel's architectures are
    >>optimized for massive data-handling, not multimedia.

    >
    >This discussion already took place with Nintendo64 and PS2. Yeah,
    >their architecture is so much better suited for "multimedia" than the
    >archaic PC with its ancient 8-bit ISA slots and CGA graphics cards...
    >yet it didn't take long for this "archaic" PC architecture to stomp
    >them completely.
    >
    >I bet this same discussion will take place also with PS4, and PS5...
    >("But this time it will be different!")
    >


    Time will tell...... Sony will not give up as easily as you...
    they will endeavor to maximize their return on the PS3 silicon
    investment and that endeavor will not stop with the PS3. The PS3
    hardware will be a loss-leader for at least the first year. Sony is
    betting on making PS3 pay its way with $$ return on the software,
    not the hardware.

    If I were Sony, I sure would be looking elsewhere for opportunity for
    positive returns on the hardware technology, as was strongly hinted
    in that news article. Remember that the PS3 hardware when available
    will be a more powerful processor of multimedia applications than
    a dual-core desktop PC. It does need storage peripherals, I/O
    interfaces and extra memory, to support these apps., plus some
    future-expansion space. Trivially easy for nVidia to provide the
    required silicon to support these functions.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Jun 14, 2005
    #9
  10. John Lewis

    Arthur Hagen Guest

    jussi <> wrote:
    >
    > I don't know where you get the wrong idea that a full-fledged desktop
    > PS3-PC would cost mere $600, when similar desktop PCs with much more
    > competition and much higher volumes cost more than that. Sony would
    > still need to get profit from their PS3-PC sales.


    Name me a single desktop PC model with "much higher volumes", please.

    5000 OEMs each buying 5000 units of something can't push the prices down
    as far as a single OEM buying 25 million units. The Sony PS3 business
    is lucrative even if the HW manufacturer only makes a tiny tiny amount
    per unit, and similar for Sony itself -- they can work with smaller
    margins due to the sheer number of sales.

    Compare that to a PC manufacturer who may hope for a sale of 5000 units,
    but has no guarantees. He might have to stop production after a
    thousand machines, while there's still a couple of thousand machines in
    the pipeline, and sell the rest cheap. This potential loss has to be
    factored in in the original price. With Sony, there's little chance of
    premature market saturation happening, but even if it does, the number
    of completed sales on which to distribute the losses will still be
    really high, to the point that it's a negligible factor in the price.

    --
    *Art
     
    Arthur Hagen, Jun 14, 2005
    #10
  11. John Lewis

    J. Clarke Guest

    John Lewis wrote:

    > On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:57:46 GMT, jussi <> wrote:
    >
    >>>

    >>Me too. And as you might recall, Amiga failed after awhile.

    >
    > Commodore made the fatal mistake of not going after the Mac instead
    > of the PC. They hired a failed IBM exec as CEO who then executed
    > the fatal mistake, in spite of the shouts from the using Amiga
    > community. Did you know that NewTek's Video Toaster was the
    > highest selling desktop video editor/effects-unit of the 1990's? It
    > sold somewhere around 60,000 units at ~ $1500 a pop.
    > Target computer-- Commodore-Amiga.
    >
    >>a new PS3-Amiga would have even less chance against the mammoth that
    >>Intel-Windows has become.

    >
    > Nope - not in multimedia. M$$ has been revising its multimedia
    > (er) "strategy" every few weeks.... And Intel's architectures are
    > optimized for massive data-handling, not multimedia. There are big
    > chinks in the armor....... And a freely-available, very suitable,
    > highly-reliable OS.


    Uh, what "optimizations" do you think are needed for multimedia? The simple
    fact is that CPU performance is far beyond what is needed for this and
    they're getting faster. There doesn't seem to be anything that
    "multimedia-optimized" architecture can bring to the show.

    Further, Microsoft's is not the only OS available for Intel.


    >
    > John Lewis
    >>


    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Jun 14, 2005
    #11
  12. John Lewis

    J. Clarke Guest

    Arthur Hagen wrote:

    > jussi <> wrote:
    >>
    >> I don't know where you get the wrong idea that a full-fledged desktop
    >> PS3-PC would cost mere $600, when similar desktop PCs with much more
    >> competition and much higher volumes cost more than that. Sony would
    >> still need to get profit from their PS3-PC sales.

    >
    > Name me a single desktop PC model with "much higher volumes", please.
    >
    > 5000 OEMs each buying 5000 units of something can't push the prices down
    > as far as a single OEM buying 25 million units. The Sony PS3 business
    > is lucrative even if the HW manufacturer only makes a tiny tiny amount
    > per unit, and similar for Sony itself -- they can work with smaller
    > margins due to the sheer number of sales.
    >
    > Compare that to a PC manufacturer who may hope for a sale of 5000 units,


    Gee, that must mean that Dell charges a million bucks a shot for each of
    their PCs. That's the only way I can think of that they could make 50
    billion dollars a year off of 5000 units.

    Perhaps it has escaped your notice, but Dell makes almost as much money
    selling mostly Intel-based computers as Sony does selling _everything_,
    electronics, games, movies, the whole nine yards. Sony's game division's
    sales are well under a quarter of Dell's. And Dell is not the largest
    player in the PC market--HP is about twice Dell's size and a good deal
    larger than Sony. Among the Taiwanese, ASUS alone has sales approximately
    twice those of the Sony game division. Total PC sales are over 100 million
    units a year vs about 15 million for the Sony Playstation.

    So your scenario of a "PC manufacturer who may hope for a sale of 5000
    units" isn't realistic at all.

    > but has no guarantees. He might have to stop production after a
    > thousand machines, while there's still a couple of thousand machines in
    > the pipeline, and sell the rest cheap. This potential loss has to be
    > factored in in the original price. With Sony, there's little chance of
    > premature market saturation happening, but even if it does, the number
    > of completed sales on which to distribute the losses will still be
    > really high, to the point that it's a negligible factor in the price.


    Yeah, right, they're going to get better economies of scale with 10% of the
    volume. Sure they will.

    So if Sony can make computers so cheap why aren't their PCs the cheapest on
    the market? Why were their PDAs so expensive?

    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Jun 14, 2005
    #12
  13. John Lewis

    Doug Guest

    That would kick ass! A Lindows system. No more f'ing Microsoft garbage!

    --
    there is no .sig
    "John Lewis" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > See:-
    >
    > http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html
    >
    > What is to really stop Sony taking just one more step beyond the
    > article and morphing the PS3 hardware architecture and silicon into
    > something we know and love, a full-blown desktop Personal Computer,
    > (with expansion-slots, SATA ports etc ) but with powerful multimedia
    > capability, and an immediate target port for PS3 games ? Putting
    > Lindows on it, and then encouraging a few of the key multimedia Mac
    > (and PC) developers to climb on board ? The powerful multi-threading
    > capability is a huge benefit for real-time multimedia applications
    > such as music programs, video animation and real-time video editors. I
    > can visualize some Mac developers chomping at the bit should Sony
    > suggest making a full-blown multi-media PC. nVidia would have no
    > trouble extending the PS3 peripheral hardware to provide the customary
    > I/O and expansion-slots expected of a PC.
    >
    > The above article hints at the bigger ideas under Sony's hat. The
    > Commodore-Amiga of the early 21st century, but with the hardware
    > power needed for today's applications. Anybody intimately familiar
    > with the C-A and its applications will relate immediately to the
    > parallels between the C-A and Sony's hinted vision of the PS3. Might
    > even break the OS hammer-locks of M$$ and Apple in a key growth
    > area (multi-media) while fusing PCs and entertainment hardware. The
    > suggested use of Linux may already be sending shivers up and
    > down certain corporate spines.
    >
    > One might expect similar suggestions for the Xbox360. However,
    > unlike Sony, M$$ has its vast current PC software base to protect.
    >
    > In the late 1980's, I did not see M$$ hurrying to embrace the
    > Commodore-Amiga windowed- UI, multitasking OS, and A/V multi-media
    > capability, when the PC was DOS with home-made UIs, 16-color
    > and pip-squeak audio -- so why should M$ get off its rich backside
    > now ?? Just make a game-console to bring in some bucks
    > while pretending you competing are in the home entertainment
    > business and then get back to the pee-cee's where all the gravy is...
    >
    > John Lewis
    >
    >
    >
     
    Doug, Jun 15, 2005
    #13
  14. John Lewis

    J. Clarke Guest

    Doug wrote:

    > That would kick ass! A Lindows system. No more f'ing Microsoft garbage!


    Except that Lindows only works on x86 hardware, it runs a very limited range
    of applications, and it works better with Microsoft DLLs.

    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Jun 15, 2005
    #14
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Replies:
    4
    Views:
    271
    Brenden D. Chase
    Jul 26, 2005
  2. Air Raid
    Replies:
    18
    Views:
    486
    Mr. Impressive
    Jul 6, 2006
  3. John D Groenveld

    MEDIA: Sun Thumper server plans excavated by The Reg

    John D Groenveld, Oct 4, 2004, in forum: Sun Hardware
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    278
    John D Groenveld
    Oct 4, 2004
  4. AirRaid Mach 2.5
    Replies:
    46
    Views:
    874
    Sammus McMouldenus
    Dec 30, 2006
  5. AirRaid Mach 2.5
    Replies:
    38
    Views:
    741
    Sammus McMouldenus
    Dec 30, 2006
Loading...

Share This Page