How hot is too hot?

Discussion in 'Asus' started by mm, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. mm

    mm Guest

    How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp?

    Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse?
    (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.)



    I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU,
    not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher
    iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?)

    My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv
    screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer
    were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts
    before then.

    When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was
    overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**.

    When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default
    temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very
    high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on
    non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and
    flashes.

    But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you
    set your temp limits at?

    For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days
    it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a
    long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really
    an unacceptable temperature?

    Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I
    have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I
    have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot.

    When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew
    because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again.


    **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the
    heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny
    things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler,
    and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine.

    I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but
    uutil then, I'd like to know.


    I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer


    ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there,
    because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs.

    Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition
    on the same HD.

    Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It
    comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat
    sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case.
    Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for
    other reasons, like wind dynamics.

    Any help is greatly appreciated.
     
    mm, Jul 30, 2010
    #1
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  2. mm

    Paul Guest

    mm wrote:
    > How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp?
    >
    > Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse?
    > (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.)
    >
    > I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU,
    > not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher
    > iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?)
    >
    > My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv
    > screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer
    > were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts
    > before then.
    >
    > When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was
    > overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**.
    >
    > When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default
    > temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very
    > high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on
    > non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and
    > flashes.
    >
    > But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you
    > set your temp limits at?
    >
    > For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days
    > it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a
    > long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really
    > an unacceptable temperature?
    >
    > Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I
    > have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I
    > have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot.
    >
    > When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew
    > because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again.
    >
    > **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the
    > heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny
    > things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler,
    > and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine.
    >
    > I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but
    > uutil then, I'd like to know.
    >
    > I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer
    >
    > ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there,
    > because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs.
    >
    > Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition
    > on the same HD.
    >
    > Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It
    > comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat
    > sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case.
    > Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for
    > other reasons, like wind dynamics.
    >
    > Any help is greatly appreciated.


    There are at least two ways to measure CPU temperature. You can use
    a socket measurement (thermistor located below the CPU body). The CPU
    temperature limit with that as a measurement might be 65C.

    Or, you can sense the diode on the silicon die, and the die gets hotter than
    the socket would (under the same conditions). The limit in that case, is
    85 or 90C. The 85C/90C limit has been enforced, on motherboards later than
    yours, using chips such as Winbond W83L785TS-S. (As far as I know, the "offset"
    feature in this one, is to make end users comfortable, with "socket-like"
    temperature measurements, while continuing to enforce the silicon die temp
    limit. I don't think the 3 bit offset actually affects the trip point. The design
    engineer sets the resistors up, to give some idea of an offset to apply to the
    value read via I2C bus, to make "socket-like" temperature readings.)

    http://www.winbond-usa.com/products/winbond_products/pdfs/PCIC/W83L785TS-S.pdf

    Your motherboard might be limited to estimating the temperature via
    a socket based measurement. And not have any reliable automated computer
    shutdown, in the event of the CPU getting too hot. (If the heatsink falls
    off your CPU, it may not shut down in time, or shut down at all, leading to
    a ruined CPU.) There was a generation of motherboards, that lacked adequate
    CPU temperature protection, leading to the over-hyped Tomshardware video of
    an AMD CPU burning up. Later motherboards came up with better methods
    of providing protection. Modern AMD and Intel systems, both have
    THERMTRIP, so this is a solved problem on your new build.

    So it really depends on how the temperature is measured. Also, the socket
    method is subject to the manufacturer applying the right correction
    (offset) to the measured value, to give a sensible value. (Since fudge
    factors are used all over the place, it's pretty hard to say what
    is really going on. The temperature reading in the BIOS, may give you some
    idea what fudge factor Asus liked, when they were designing the BIOS code.)

    (Maximum die temperature 90C for a particular Athlon.)
    http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/24309.pdf

    So if the tool you're using, is pretending to measure a CPU socket
    temperature, then 65C might be a reasonable upper limit (for stability
    as much as anything else).

    If you had a more modern board, say one with the W83L785TS-S on it, then
    it may be enforcing a silicon die limit of 85C or 90C. (For different
    generations of AMD processor, you may find the datasheet lists one
    of those values.)

    if the above seems a bit imprecise, well, it is imprecise. AMD (CPU manuf.)
    does have a stated limit, as the 24309 document shows. But what your
    measurement circuit is doing, is a completely separate issue. Maybe a
    65C reading there, is equal to the 90C limit of the processor. Who knows...

    *******

    For Northbridge or Southbridge chips, similar issues may exist. On older
    motherboards, a thermistor may be used to measure the temperature of
    one of them. On newer designs, a silicon diode inside the chip, is used.
    They can give different readings (as one is a socket/case reading, the
    other a silicon die reading).

    Some examples of limits:

    875P Tcase-max is 99C degrees. (PDF page 17). This is a Northbridge

    http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/designguide/252528.pdf

    ICH5 Tcase-max is 115C degrees. (PDf page 7). This is a Southbridge

    http://www.intel.com/assets/pdf/designguide/252673.pdf

    The human finger, can press on a 65C surface for about two
    seconds, before deciding it is "too hot". And unless your chipset
    is sandwiched inside a laptop, it really shouldn't be forced to
    run that hot.

    The thing is, you need adequate cooling for your hard drives, and by the
    time there is sufficient air moving through the computer case to cool
    the drives, chances are the (properly attached) chipset heatsinks are
    cool enough. Setting a limit of 65C there, should help keep the memory
    controller on the Northbridge stable and error free. You might
    expect to see a low value in practice, like 43C or so. And in the
    case of the ICH5 (which didn't have a heatsink on it), there was
    barely any heat detectable when you touched it. So no reading there
    is really necessary.

    You can try looking up your chipset on the AMD site, like look for
    the AMD761 and see if it gives thermal info. The VIA website is a
    waste of time, and they don't typically give out useful info
    to end users (only under NDA). Your Southbridge is made by VIA,
    and the Northbridge by AMD (same as the brand of processor).

    AMD761 (Tcase-max is 85C, page 58)

    http://support.amd.com/us/ChipsetMotherboard_TechDocs/24088.pdf

    *******

    You can check your hard drive temperature with Speedfan from almico.com
    or with HDTune from HDTune.com ( http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe )
    Usually, mine are in the 35C range, and may get up to 45C or so if the A.C. is
    off. (Hard drive temperature, if supported, is provided via the S.M.A.R.T
    interface.) Hard drives are sensitive to both humidity and temperature, and the
    closer you are to "living in a rain forest", then the closer to 35C you
    should maintain the drive. You can run them hotter, if the air is
    extremely dry. Some hard drive manufacturers provide a graph, if you
    can find the appropriate document (that is where I discovered
    they were also interested in the humidity).

    *******

    Things that help your CPU stay cool:

    1) Adequate case intake vents, to ensure good case cooling, so the case fan
    doesn't have to work too hard. Some computer cases, have too small an
    intake area.

    2) Clean the heatsink fins (you've done that).

    3) Don't bother cleaning the fan blades - I ruined a fan bearing by
    applying a little too much pressure to the fan blades. Be careful if you
    do that kind of cleaning.

    4) If you know the temps shot up too high, chances are your thermal
    paste or thermal interface material, needs to be changed. Special
    care must be used, when working with bare-die processors such as
    yours. It helps if a "shim" or "rubber bumps" are present on the
    top of the processor, so the heatsink cannot be rocked from side
    to side, when putting the heatsink back. If you rock the heatsink,
    it chips the edges of the silicon die. If a crack on the edge
    of the chip, propagates deep enough, it will kill the CPU.

    Apply thermal paste sparingly, because if it oozes out, it will get
    on the resistors on the top of the processor. To do a "test pressing",
    put a half-grain of paste on the CPU die, and gently put the heatsink
    in place. You should get a round circle of paste squashed onto the
    die. The size of the circle, tells you how much additional material
    you'd need, to get complete coverage. Too much paste, is just as bad
    as too little. The AMD CPU has one of the smallest contact surfaces
    of any processor, so doing this right is critical to getting a good
    result. Processors with thermal spreaders on top, would make this
    much easier.

    http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth/amd/ss/AMD_app_method_surface_spread_v1.1.pdf

    After re-doing the paste, you can run a benchmark like Prime95, and record
    the peak CPU temp (after the paste has bedded in). Record the computer
    case air temperature, and the room temperature. In later years,
    you can go back to those measurements, and compare them. If the CPU
    runs 10C hotter than it used to, for the same degree of case or room
    temp, then it may be time to re-do the paste again.

    The original thermal interface material, may be a phase change type.
    It can last a long time, but may need to be replaced if you remove
    the heatsink a lot. Paste, on the other hand, is not a permanent
    solution, and may need to be re-done in a few years. I'm still using
    the original tube of paste I bought, so a tube lasts a long time. I
    prefer paste, because I know, sooner or later, I'll be disassembling
    it anyway.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 30, 2010
    #2
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  3. mm

    123Jim Guest

    "mm" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    >
    > How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp?
    >
    > Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse?
    > (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.)
    >
    >
    >
    > I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU,
    > not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher
    > iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?)
    >
    > My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv
    > screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer
    > were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts
    > before then.
    >
    > When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was
    > overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**.
    >
    > When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default
    > temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very
    > high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on
    > non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and
    > flashes.
    >
    > But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you
    > set your temp limits at?
    >
    > For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days
    > it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a
    > long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really
    > an unacceptable temperature?
    >
    > Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I
    > have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I
    > have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot.
    >
    > When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew
    > because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again.
    >
    >
    > **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the
    > heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny
    > things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler,
    > and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine.
    >
    > I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but
    > uutil then, I'd like to know.
    >
    >
    > I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer
    >
    >
    > ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there,
    > because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs.
    >
    > Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition
    > on the same HD.
    >
    > Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It
    > comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat
    > sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case.
    > Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for
    > other reasons, like wind dynamics.
    >
    > Any help is greatly appreciated.


    My laptop shuts down abruptly at ~85 degrees Celsius for the CPU. I cleaned
    it a while ago with a can of compressed air and only recently has it begun
    to reach that temperature again, but only if I accidentally block the cpu
    vent which is not so cleverly located on the underside.

    Today is a cool day and I am only using the browser and the email client ..
    the CPU is sitting at ~49 to ~54 degrees Celsius .. the cpu fan is not
    'blowing' at this temperature.

    If I watch a YouTube video .. The cpu temperature jumps to ~59 degrees
    Celsius (today the room temperature is about 18 degrees I estimate) and the
    cpu fan kicks in.
    The hard drive reports ~43 degrees Celsius.

    These measurements are reported by 'Speedfan 4.34'
    My laptop is HP Pavilion ze2000 running XP .. on Intel Pentium M 1.60mhz
    with 2GB RAM
     
    123Jim, Jul 30, 2010
    #3
  4. mm

    ruggb

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    3
    I have 2 Gigabyte MBs - that is a long story and they will be the last ones I own.
    I have an infrared thermo and the temps on the northbridge HS were reading close to 60°C at std freqs. The would get close to 100°C if I OC'd to 300MHZ from 266.

    This is the first numbers I have seen on max temps - THANKS

    HOWEVER, when anything gets to 60°C I start to worry. ESPECIALLY HDD - I like that less than 45 and WD runs hotter.

    I was having strange memory errors that I could not locate a cause for. It was not like the error was at a particular location - it was random. I was using HCL Memtest which runs under windows. AFTER MONTHS of troubleshooting it turned out to be because the MB northbridge was running hot. At the time I did not have the thermo so I can't tell you what it was. The numbers I quoted are from the 2nd MB I purchased so I could RMA the first.

    The 2nd started giving me the same kind of errors. I then changed the HS on the NB when I read 99°C with my new thermo. It is now running perfect even overclocked. Where the temp reached 100, it is now 45 on the HS.

    Bottom line -
    keep HDD below 50 unless it is WD, then 56.
    Keep CPU below 70 - <60 preferred
    Keep NB below 70 - < 60 preferred
    Keep ram below 60
     
    ruggb, Aug 18, 2010
    #4
  5. mm

    mm Guest

    On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:47:14 +0100, "123Jim"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"mm" <> wrote in message
    >news:eek:...
    >>
    >> How hot is too hot for an ASUS mobo, the CPU temp and the MOBO temp?
    >>
    >> Also will adding another half-gig of RAM make the temp problem worse?
    >> (I have them memory already but havent' been using it.)
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I have an ASUS mobo, A7M266, with one gig of RAM, and an 800 MHz CPU,
    >> not by intel, (I forget the company, but they rate the speed higher
    >> iiuc. Amtrak? Amstel?)
    >>
    >> My oil furnace malfunctioned for a while this past winter, and tv
    >> screens attracted noticeable soot. Some parts inside the computer
    >> were probably also affected. I've vacuumed it, but the story starts
    >> before then.
    >>
    >> When the hot days of summer started, I found that the computer was
    >> overheating. I exited winXP and it turned the computer off**.
    >>
    >> When it was cool again, I dl'd and installed ASUSProbe. The default
    >> temps at which points it would flash and beep warnings seemed very
    >> high. I lowered them to about 4 degrees of the operating temps on
    >> non-hot days. So if it gets 4 degrees above that, it beeps and
    >> flashes.
    >>
    >> But I have no idea what the temps should really be. What would you
    >> set your temp limits at?
    >>
    >> For example, right now the MOBO temp is set for 41C/105F. Some days
    >> it's 102 degrees out and maybe 90 something in my house. It's not a
    >> long way from room temp until the mobo reaches 105, but is this really
    >> an unacceptable temperature?
    >>
    >> Similarly, the CPU is set for 156?F/70C, and it will reach that if I
    >> have the newsreader, mailreader, and web browser open, especially if I
    >> have a lot of tabs open, but is that really too hot.
    >>
    >> When it first overheated, I had no way to measure temp***. I knew
    >> because it stopped working right. That hasn't happened again.
    >>
    >>
    >> **A couple weeks later, I also remnmoved the CPU fan and vacuuumed the
    >> heat sink with a real vacuum, not one of those battery operated tiny
    >> things. At that point the computer temp went 10 to 20 degrees cooler,
    >> and as long as the outside temps were in the 80's things were fine.
    >>
    >> I plan to vacuum again with a better attaachment (for lamp shades) but
    >> uutil then, I'd like to know.
    >>
    >>
    >> I"m in the middle of assembling a bigger faster computer
    >>
    >>
    >> ***The actual temp shows in the BIOS settings, but I can't look there,
    >> because it's never that hot when I'm not running programs.
    >>
    >> Also FWIW it seems to run cooler when I use win98, another partition
    >> on the same HD.
    >>
    >> Also fwiw, it turns out the soot is not sticky and it's not oily. It
    >> comes right off when sucked. It even comes off when I rap on the heat
    >> sink, although then it falls, mostly onto the bottom of the case.
    >> Doesn't seem to leave a trace, so I must have missed some of it for
    >> other reasons, like wind dynamics.
    >>
    >> Any help is greatly appreciated.

    >
    >My laptop shuts down abruptly at ~85 degrees Celsius for the CPU. I cleaned


    Wow, that's much hotter than I've been since I had the temp program
    installed. I have it set to complain at 71^C, and I've let it get one
    degree over that, maybe 2 at most for very short times. Of course,
    nothing has abruptly shut down, or even gone haywire, and like I say,
    when it did to that, I had no way to know what the temp was.

    >it a while ago with a can of compressed air and only recently has it begun
    >to reach that temperature again, but only if I accidentally block the cpu
    >vent which is not so cleverly located on the underside.


    I vacuumed mine, with a small shop vac, and the running CPU tenp on
    non-hot days dropped by 10 to 20 degrees. The room could be much
    hotter without causing problesms and indded sometimes it was the mobo
    temp that went above what I had set it at 41 or 42C, something like
    99F. I still plan to use a bigger shop vac and a lampshade
    attachement, the round brush with the hole in the middle. Actually any
    brush that would get into the heat sink prongs would be a big help.
    Myabe next time the fan is off I should just look for a brush that
    will do that.

    >Today is a cool day and I am only using the browser and the email client ..
    >the CPU is sitting at ~49 to ~54 degrees Celsius .. the cpu fan is not
    >'blowing' at this temperature.


    This confused me. My CPU is never below 60 I think, and I think the
    fan blows all the time no matter what, but it's hotter than yours, and
    this is an old mobo for a desktop, so it may not know how to turn off
    the fan, and there is no need to save battery life anyhow.

    >If I watch a YouTube video .. The cpu temperature jumps to ~59 degrees


    I couldn't watch a video when it was hot here. It was an average of
    7 degrees hotter every day in July than the previous year, which
    admittedly was cooler than usual, but this June and July were much
    hotter than usual.

    >Celsius (today the room temperature is about 18 degrees I estimate) and the
    >cpu fan kicks in.
    >The hard drive reports ~43 degrees Celsius.
    >
    >These measurements are reported by 'Speedfan 4.34'
    >My laptop is HP Pavilion ze2000 running XP .. on Intel Pentium M 1.60mhz
    >with 2GB RAM
    >

    Thanks for your detailed answers 123. At first they were so much
    hotter than mine, I thought I was misundertanding them, and that's one
    reason I didn't reply for a long time (sorry) but otoh, if I added 10
    to 20 degrees to my temps (the same amount that vacuuming it made my
    temp go down) it might have been your temps when it went haywire.


    And thanks Paul.
     
    mm, Aug 27, 2010
    #5
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