K7SEM and high density memory

Discussion in 'ECS' started by mike99, Sep 7, 2005.

  1. mike99

    mike99 Guest

    can I use a so called "high density " memory w/that mobo???because
    dealer who sold me one of those HD sticks says I can only use low
    density on that board(rev 1.0 ). My puter was working fine w/that
    stick for about a week , then the memowy died, and shows only 128MB or
    won’t boot at all.Is he trying to scam me, or he’s telling the
    truth?memowy was no name, 512MB pc133 168 pin dimm. :cry:

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    mike99, Sep 7, 2005
    #1
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  2. mike99

    mike99 Guest

    "mike99" wrote
    > can I use a so called "high density " memory w/that
    > mobo???because dealer who sold me one of those HD sticks says
    > I can only use low density on that board(rev 1.0 ). My puter
    > was working fine w/that stick for about a week , then the
    > memowy died, and shows only 128MB or won't boot at all.Is he
    > trying to scam me, or he's telling the truth?memowy was no
    > name, 512MB pc133 168 pin dimm. :cry


    If that was a stupid question please let me know..........
     
    mike99, Sep 7, 2005
    #2
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  3. mike99

    tcsenter Guest

    >>can I use a so called "high density " memory w/that mobo???<<


    The problem is that there is no accepted definition of "high density"
    memory modules. It can and does mean different things, and we have no
    idea what the dealer defines as high density. He could mean x4 DRAM
    technology, he could mean 256Mbit components, or something else.

    The SIS730S supports both x4 DRAM and 256Mbit chips, but there must be
    BIOS support as well. I couldn't tell you if K7SEM supports some
    arbitrarily defined 'high density' modules I've never see, but I can
    point you to memory modules that will work:

    A-DATA 256MB PC133 (16MX8) SDRAM module -
    http://www.chiefvalue.com/app/productdetails.asp?submit=property&item=20-211-005

    A-DATA 512MB PC133 (32MX8) SDRAM module -
    http://www.chiefvalue.com/app/productdetails.asp?submit=property&item=20-211-136


    Generic 256MB PC133 (32Mx8) SDRAM module -
    http://www.ms4me.com/oem25pcinsta.html

    Generic 512MB PC133 (32Mx8) SDRAM module -
    http://www.ms4me.com/oem51pcsd32t.html
     
    tcsenter, Sep 7, 2005
    #3
  4. When if cannot see all the ram, it is a high density problem. Ususally
    the problem is fixed with a bios update, but if that does not work, your
    options are limited. I doubt you are being scammed, but there is always
    that chance.

    mike99 () wrote:
    : can I use a so called "high density " memory w/that mobo???because
    : dealer who sold me one of those HD sticks says I can only use low
    : density on that board(rev 1.0 ). My puter was working fine w/that
    : stick for about a week , then the memowy died, and shows only 128MB or
    : won’t boot at all.Is he trying to scam me, or he’s telling the
    : truth?memowy was no name, 512MB pc133 168 pin dimm. :cry:

    : --
    : Posted using the http://www.hardwareforumz.com interface, at author's request
    : Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
    : Topic URL: http://www.hardwareforumz.com/Elitegroup-K7SEM-high-density-memory-ftopict61698.html
    : Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: http://www.hardwareforumz.com/eform.php?p=311172

    : Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
    : ----------------------------------------------------------
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    Brian Campbell, Sep 7, 2005
    #4
  5. mike99

    Buffalo Guest

    "mike99" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > can I use a so called "high density " memory w/that mobo???because
    > dealer who sold me one of those HD sticks says I can only use low
    > density on that board(rev 1.0 ). My puter was working fine w/that
    > stick for about a week , then the memowy died, and shows only 128MB or
    > won't boot at all.Is he trying to scam me, or he's telling the
    > truth?memowy was no name, 512MB pc133 168 pin dimm. :cry:


    High-density sticks do not work as universally as low-density sticks do. In
    fact, they are really limited.
    If your PC worked with that memory for a week (recognizing the full 512MBs) then
    it sounds like the memory was faulty.
    High and low density both have the same voltage rating, so your MB would not
    burn it out, or damage it.
    Strange that it only recognizes 128.
    Remove and reseat the memory stick.
    If that doesn't help, try the other slot.
    See if the dealer can check out that stick for you.
    Here is a blurb from Flipper:
    Sounds like it was 'high density' RAM.

    "It isn't that 'high density' never works, it depends on how much RAM
    you're trying to install.

    'Standard' RAM chips are organized a DEPTH x 8 Bits. E.g. 32x8, 64x8,
    etc. That means 8 of the chips make up a 64 bit wide rank (memory bus
    is 64 bits wide). "Double Sided" is an old term to describe a stick
    with 16 chips, 8 on each side. And with DEPTH x 8 chips that makes for
    2 ranks (or, again in an older style terminology: 2 'banks').

    'High Density' chips are DEPTH x 4 bits so it takes 16 to make a 64
    bit wide memory rank. And this is why "double sided" is no longer the
    favored description because when x8 chips are used "Double sided"
    means "double rank" but with x4 chips it takes both sides and 16 chips
    to make the ONE, single, rank.

    Now to the problem. A memory 'slot' is usually designed for 'standard'
    x8 chips and memory sticks containing 2 ranks. That is how the
    'capacity' will be described. I.E. the K7S5A says it can handle up to
    "1 gig" with two DDR slots, and that means 512Meg per slot, which
    means 256 Meg PER RANK. (2 ranks per slot, 2 slots, etc)

    But a 'high density' memory stick crams the 512 Meg into ONE RANK by
    using 16 deeper (twice as deep) x4 bit width chips. And this is how
    they arrive at the confusing term 'high density'. The chips themselves
    are no higher in density than the x8 chips but since they are
    organized as x4 they can cram more 'bytes' into a single rank because
    16 chips make up a rank rather than 8, not that it helps make the
    stick itself any 'higher' in 'density' because you can still only get
    16 chips mounted on the thing.

    So, a 512 Meg 'high density' stick puts 512 Meg in ONE RANK and a
    'standard' density 512 Meg stick is two 256 Meg Ranks. Same size, same
    'density'. It's the RANK organization that's different.

    Since the memory slot on a K7S5A is two 256 Meg Ranks, a standard
    density 512 Meg stick will work but a 'high density' 512 Meg stick
    will not.

    However, a 'high density' 256 Meg stick probably will since it crams
    the 256 Meg into ONE RANK and the K7S5A can handle 256 Meg ranks.

    For example, I'm running SDRAM on my K7S5A and, as it turns out, one
    is 'standard' x8 density and the other is 'high density x4. But
    they're both 256 Meg sticks and they both work. Damn irritating,
    however, as they were both bought at the same time inside the same
    package label, and same part number, with 16 chips on each so they
    look identical (Kingston) but they are NOT the same thing. Doesn't
    matter to my K7S5A but it means I can not use the 'high density' one
    in my other motherboards because they support 128 Meg ranks (256 Meg
    per slot but NOT in 'high density').

    So, in a nutshell, if you're looking for 512 Meg sticks, make sure the
    spec says they use x8 chips. But, if you're not trying to get 1 gig
    then two 256 meg 'high density' sticks will be cheaper.

    Flipper"

    Hope this helps explain high and low density sticks somewhat.
    Buffalo
     
    Buffalo, Sep 7, 2005
    #5
  6. mike99

    tcsenter Guest

    >>'Standard' RAM chips are organized a DEPTH x 8 Bits....'High Density' chips are DEPTH x 4 bits<<


    This is but one of many definitions, obviously the one you prefer, but
    by no means the only one in common use. Again, there is no accepted
    industry definition of "high density" relative to standard or low
    density.

    In DRAM component and module datasheets, the term "density" itself is
    more likely to imply or be associated with chip capacity (Mbit) instead
    of the cell array organization, but not always. These are perhaps the
    most arbitrary terms in use WRT memory.

    In the EDO SIMM and PC66 SDRAM era, talk of "low density" and "high
    density" RAM often referred to the limitation of then-current chipsets
    to support modules no larger than 64MBytes. In the PC100 era, these
    terms often referred to the 128Mbit component density limitation of
    certain chipsets such as Intel 440BX and 810E, and VIA MVP3. 128Mbit
    and lower was referred to as 'low density' while 256Mbit and higher was
    'high density'.

    When PC133 became commonplace, one had to be mindful of whether their
    chipset supported 'old' PC133 or 'new' PC133 (e.g. VIA MVP3 vs. Apollo
    Pro133). No doubt when DDR2 accounts for most market share and DDR is
    obsolete, there will be different limitations giving rise to another
    meaning for high and low density, so on and so forth.

    Also, I'm fairly sure that ranks are physical sides, not logical.
     
    tcsenter, Sep 7, 2005
    #6
  7. mike99

    uddarts Guest

    Re: Re: K7SEM and high density memory

    "mike99" wrote:
    > If that was a stupid question please let me know..........


    there does appear to be issues with high density ram with some board.
    low density is industry standard.

    http://ms4me.com/mi51pcsd16di.html

    sis 730 chipset isn’t listed.


    ud
     
    uddarts, Sep 8, 2005
    #7
  8. mike99

    mike99 Guest

    Re: Re: K7SEM and high density memory

    "uddarts" wrote:
    > there does appear to be issues with high density ram with some
    > board. low density is industry standard.
    >
    > http://ms4me.com/mi51pcsd16di.html
    >
    > sis 730 chipset isn't listed.
    >
    >
    > ud


    "SIS 730S isn’t listed", Is it a good or bad news for me???
     
    mike99, Sep 8, 2005
    #8
  9. mike99

    uddarts Guest

    Re: Re: K7SEM and high density memory

    "mike99" wrote:
    > "SIS 730S isn't listed", Is it a good or bad news for me???


    my interpretation is no.


    ud
     
    uddarts, Sep 8, 2005
    #9
  10. mike99

    Buffalo Guest

    Re: Re: K7SEM and high density memory

    "mike99" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "uddarts" wrote:
    > > there does appear to be issues with high density ram with some
    > > board. low density is industry standard.
    > >
    > > http://ms4me.com/mi51pcsd16di.html
    > >
    > > sis 730 chipset isn't listed.
    > >
    > >
    > > ud

    >
    > "SIS 730S isn't listed", Is it a good or bad news for me??


    Bad news. Try ebay for some good deals on ram. Just make sure it is of the low
    density type.
    Still, your MB will not cause high density to fail.
     
    Buffalo, Sep 8, 2005
    #10
  11. mike99

    flipper Guest

    On 7 Sep 2005 15:03:19 -0700, "tcsenter" <> wrote:

    >>>'Standard' RAM chips are organized a DEPTH x 8 Bits....'High Density' chips are DEPTH x 4 bits<<

    >


    Since Buffalo was simply repasting a previous post of mine I will
    respond.

    >This is but one of many definitions, obviously the one you prefer, but
    >by no means the only one in common use. Again, there is no accepted
    >industry definition of "high density" relative to standard or low
    >density.


    That's partly true except, for one, the context was desktop memory and
    x4 vs x8 is the one in 'common use' today. Or rather, using x4 chips
    is how the so called 'hi density' memory modules are commonly made and
    how they get called 'hi density'.


    >In DRAM component and module datasheets, the term "density" itself is
    >more likely to imply or be associated with chip capacity (Mbit) instead
    >of the cell array organization,


    Which I noted in my explanation and is why I said that the term 'hi
    density' with respect to the modules themselves is misleading as
    nothing is of any 'higher density' other than packing the entire
    module in one of the 2 ranks in the slot rather than using both
    ranks.

    The chips are not any higher in density and neither is the memory
    module itself. It's simply 'rank density' that increases, nothing
    else.

    Of course, that is only a 'complaint' if one is looking at the 'hi
    density' moniker as a 'feature' statement.

    > but not always. These are perhaps the
    >most arbitrary terms in use WRT memory.
    >
    >In the EDO SIMM and PC66 SDRAM era, talk of "low density" and "high
    >density" RAM often referred to the limitation of then-current chipsets
    >to support modules no larger than 64MBytes.


    That's memory capacity, not density, and is true regardless of adding
    the density issue. A memory rank can't address more than it can
    address.

    x4 organization vs x8 organization confuses the issue by increasing
    the module addressing needs for the same amount of memory so the
    matter is no longer so simple as looking at the stick and asking
    yourself "is it the right megabyte 'size'?" because the rank size of
    'hi density', x4, memory is double that of x8 modules.

    Now, beyond that, there were also 'hi density' modules made with x4
    chips back then too and it's the exact same problem now as then

    > In the PC100 era, these
    >terms often referred to the 128Mbit component density limitation of
    >certain chipsets such as Intel 440BX and 810E, and VIA MVP3. 128Mbit
    >and lower was referred to as 'low density' while 256Mbit and higher was
    >'high density'.


    You're mixing the two issues again. The first, and simple one, is that
    a BX chipset memory slot has two 128 meg ranks so it can't address 256
    meg ranks or, indeed, anything larger than the 128 meg/rank it can
    address. Simple and obvious.

    I.E You can't use 512 meg 'standard' x8 memory modules because that is
    2 256 meg ranks and it's simply more than the addressing supports. No
    one is 'confused' about it because saying "max 256meg per slot"
    describes the matter, as does "3 slots, up to 768 meg," as long as
    you're looking at 'standard (organization)' memory modules.

    However, you can't use 256meg 'hi density' modules, even though the
    slot can address 256 meg and the '256 meg' module 'seems' on the
    surface to be '256 meg', because the x4 module puts all of the 256 meg
    in one rank and, again, the BX can't address more than 128 meg per
    rank. So how does one distinguish one 256 meg module from the other
    256 meg module? One which works and one that doesn't. The one that
    doesn't is 'hi density', not because it "doesn't work" but because
    it's made with x4 chips 'hi density' packing the entire capacity into
    one rank.

    Note, it being 'hi density' is only an addressing problem when the
    size of that 'hi density' module falls at the addressing point where
    it exceeds the rank capacity and that's why it seems that the meaning
    of "hi density" 'changes' as the motherboards can address more memory.
    It, the meaning of 'hi density', isn't 'changing' it's just that the
    size where the problem manifests itself changes.

    As a side note, addressing isn't the only issue with 'hi density'
    memory. It also doubles the chips (from 8 to 16) on the rank select
    lines and that can cause problems for some motherboards as well
    whether it's at the 'magic' addressing point or not.


    >When PC133 became commonplace, one had to be mindful of whether their
    >chipset supported 'old' PC133 or 'new' PC133 (e.g. VIA MVP3 vs. Apollo
    >Pro133). No doubt when DDR2 accounts for most market share and DDR is
    >obsolete, there will be different limitations giving rise to another
    >meaning for high and low density, so on and so forth.


    Those issue have nothing to do with 'density' and suggesting that 'hi
    density' is just some arbitrary slang for "I have an unknown memory
    problem" just adds to the confusion, not help.

    >
    >Also, I'm fairly sure that ranks are physical sides, not logical.


    No, rank, is the logical (although it's electrically physical
    distinguished by the rank select line).

    Why would you think the motherboard give's a rats ass, or can even
    tell, where they are on the module? Case in point, DIMM/SODIMM are
    physically different and the chipset is merrily oblivious.
     
    flipper, Sep 9, 2005
    #11
  12. mike99

    Tim Guest

    "flipper" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    >>That's partly true except, for one, the context was desktop memory and

    x4 vs x8 is the one in 'common use' today. Or rather, using x4 chips
    is how the so called 'hi density' memory modules are commonly made and
    how they get called 'hi density'.<<


    Really?

    Here is one fairly large and well known computer hardware reseller
    advertising PC133 modules built using 32Mx8 DRAM chips as "high density":

    http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=32X64PC133-8-R

    http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=32X64PC133-N-8

    This is by no means the only example I've seen in the last 12 months, its
    just the most recent that came to my attention. Visit any large computer
    forum, such as Anandtech.com forums or Motherboards.org forums, and make use
    of their search feature. There is no shortage of very recent posts
    demonstrating confusion over what constitutes high density memory, and also
    what the limitation is of the chipset in question, fueled in no small part
    by numerous resellers advertising "high density" memory in a highly
    arbitrary manner.

    All we had to go on is that some guy (dealer) told the topic creator that
    "high density" modules are not supported by K7SEM, with zero explanation of
    what the speaker means by "high density", since it has in the past and
    continues to arbitrarily be defined not only by lay persons but also by some
    within the memory industry (e.g. marketing and sales people).

    My point is that what is in use (i.e. what some "dealer" means by "high
    density") is arbitrary, much of which is technically incorrect leading to
    confusion of what modules will or will not work (and why), and we don't know
    how this dealer is defining high density. How YOU or I define high density
    is irrelevant.

    Regards
     
    Tim, Oct 19, 2005
    #12
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