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laptop shuts off, except when it's in the freezer

Discussion in 'Laptops' started by Felipe G. Nievinski, Apr 7, 2012.

  1. Heat sink already replaced.
    Any ideas what else to try?
    Thanks,
    -FGN.
     
    Felipe G. Nievinski, Apr 7, 2012
    #1
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  2. Felipe G. Nievinski

    BillW50 Guest

    In
    news:,
    Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > Heat sink already replaced.
    > Any ideas what else to try?
    > Thanks,
    > -FGN.


    What is the make and model of this laptop? Does it have the video chip
    on a card or the motherboard? What kind of CPU does it have?

    --
    Bill
    Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
    Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3
     
    BillW50, Apr 7, 2012
    #2
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  3. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Paul Guest

    Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > Heat sink already replaced.
    > Any ideas what else to try?
    > Thanks,
    > -FGN.


    Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?

    *******

    This document is to demonstrate someone applying paste to their
    processor. Just to give you some idea how it works. It improves
    thermal conductivity into the heatsink/heatpipe assembly.
    Enthusiasts use paste, because they're always taking their
    computer apart, and this stuff is relatively easy to clean
    off and easy to re-apply.

    http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth/int/ss/intel_app_method_surface_spread_v1.1.pdf

    Some heatsink assemblies come with thermal tape, which is good for
    one application. And tape has about 1/10th the performance of paste.
    The advantage of tape, is it never needs maintenance, whereas the
    same cannot be said for thermal paste. You may need to disassembly
    and reapply paste after a several year period. (I.e. If three years
    from now, it's shutting down again, you may need to clean and reapply
    some paste.) I haven't changed the paste on mine since installing it
    a couple years ago, and thermal performance is still good. With tape,
    it wouldn't conduct nearly as well, but the tape can't "ooze out"
    of the gap.

    If your heatsink assembly did come with thermal tape on it, the tape
    can have a protective layer on the outside, which you remove.
    I really hate that concept, because on a few occasions, I peeled
    off the wrong layer, and ruined the tape. So if your heatsink
    assembly came with tape, make sure you're prepared the thing
    properly before bolting it down. You may have left the
    protective plastic on top of the tape. If you did it right, the
    active surface would be sticky or gooey, rather than being "smooth"
    like plastic. The plastic cover, is to prevent the material underneath
    from picking up dust and dirt before usage.

    http://www.torchworld.com.au/catalog/images/ThermalTransferTapeNM2790.jpg

    Some heatsinks, like on desktop processors, come with screen printed
    material. The heatsink is suspended in a plastic shell, so the gooey
    material won't touch anything until you're ready to use it. So that's
    how they avoid using a protective cover in that case, by suspending the
    heatsink so it won't touch anything.

    In this example of a desktop cooler, you can see a gray material that's
    been printed or deposited, on the aluminum. It's ready to press down
    onto the CPU, with no additional preparation steps.

    http://www.build-your-own-computer.net/image-files/cpu-heatsink.jpg

    Paul
     
    Paul, Apr 7, 2012
    #3
  4. On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul <> wrote:
    > Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > > Heat sink already replaced.
    > > Any ideas what else to try?
    > > Thanks,
    > > -FGN.

    >
    > Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    > ...
    >    Paul

    Good point; yes, I did.
    -FGN.
     
    Felipe G. Nievinski, Apr 7, 2012
    #4
  5. On Apr 7, 3:18 am, "BillW50" <> wrote:
    > Innews:,
    >
    > Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > > Heat sink already replaced.
    > > Any ideas what else to try?
    > > Thanks,
    > > -FGN.

    >
    > What is the make and model of thislaptop? Doesithave the video chip
    > on a card or the motherboard? What kind of CPU doesithave?
    >

    It's an HP DV69115NR, with an Athlon CPU and an Nvidia GeForce GPU.
    I just learned this is an infamous case -- see <http://
    www.nvidiasettlement.com/>.
    I called HP Support and told them I interested in paying for an out-of-
    warranty repair.
    They said they won't do it; they're offering a $100 rebate to purchase
    a new one.
    This is a 4-year old laptop -- too young to die.
    I'm going to see what I can do to repair it myself. I'm about to toss
    it in the recycle bin.
    -FGN.
     
    Felipe G. Nievinski, Apr 7, 2012
    #5
  6. Felipe G. Nievinski

    BillW50 Guest

    In
    news:,
    Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > On Apr 7, 3:18 am, "BillW50" <> wrote:
    >> Innews:,
    >>
    >> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >>> Heat sink already replaced.
    >>> Any ideas what else to try?
    >>> Thanks,
    >>> -FGN.

    >>
    >> What is the make and model of thislaptop? Doesithave the video chip
    >> on a card or the motherboard? What kind of CPU doesithave?
    >>

    > It's an HP DV69115NR, with an Athlon CPU and an Nvidia GeForce GPU.
    > I just learned this is an infamous case -- see <http://
    > www.nvidiasettlement.com/>.
    > I called HP Support and told them I interested in paying for an
    > out-of- warranty repair.
    > They said they won't do it; they're offering a $100 rebate to purchase
    > a new one.
    > This is a 4-year old laptop -- too young to die.
    > I'm going to see what I can do to repair it myself. I'm about to toss
    > it in the recycle bin.
    > -FGN.


    Yes that is exactly what my first guess was. Many people have gotten
    them working again for two weeks to about 4 months by stripping it down
    to the motherboard and baking it in an oven for 10 minutes at 400
    degrees F. Although I don't think this is too much help really. As it is
    only going to happen again anyway. ;-(

    --
    Bill
    Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
    Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3
     
    BillW50, Apr 7, 2012
    #6
  7. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Allen Drake Guest

    On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 14:37:48 -0700 (PDT), "Felipe G. Nievinski"
    <> wrote:

    >On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul <> wrote:
    >> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >> > Heat sink already replaced.
    >> > Any ideas what else to try?
    >> > Thanks,
    >> > -FGN.

    >>
    >> Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    >> ...
    >>    Paul

    >Good point; yes, I did.
    >-FGN.


    Have you cleaned fan(s)? I have seen them get pretty dirty. One might
    think that caked in link it a filter. Sometimes air will not even
    clean it out.
     
    Allen Drake, Apr 7, 2012
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    Felipe G. Nievinski <> wrote:
    >Heat sink already replaced.
    >Any ideas what else to try?
    >Thanks,


    Relocate to Greenland?
     
    the wharf rat, Apr 8, 2012
    #8
  9. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Ryan P. Guest

    On 4/7/2012 5:12 PM, BillW50 wrote:

    > Yes that is exactly what my first guess was. Many people have gotten
    > them working again for two weeks to about 4 months by stripping it down
    > to the motherboard and baking it in an oven for 10 minutes at 400
    > degrees F. Although I don't think this is too much help really. As it is
    > only going to happen again anyway. ;-(
    >


    It is a decent stopgap, though. Its been 6 months since my last bake,
    and my DV6000 is still going strong.

    I've also gotten myself a 12-cell battery, so that lifts the back-end
    up and increases circulation.
     
    Ryan P., Apr 8, 2012
    #9
  10. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Ryan P. Guest

    On 4/7/2012 4:37 PM, Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul<> wrote:
    >> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >>> Heat sink already replaced.
    >>> Any ideas what else to try?
    >>> Thanks,
    >>> -FGN.

    >>
    >> Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    >> ...
    >> Paul

    > Good point; yes, I did.
    > -FGN.


    You'll want to check the area where the copper is supposed to make
    contact with the GPU. HP uses a thermal pad rather than thermal paste
    because there is such a large gap.

    If you replaced the heat sink and just used thermal paste over the GPU,
    you most likely aren't getting any contact between the chip and the
    sink. You'll have to either solder a piece of copper onto the heat
    sink, or get a replacement thermal pad.
     
    Ryan P., Apr 8, 2012
    #10
  11. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Happy Oyster Guest

    Happy Oyster, Apr 8, 2012
    #11
  12. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Tazz Guest

    On 08/04/2012 11:37 AM, Ryan P. wrote:
    > On 4/7/2012 4:37 PM, Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >> On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul<> wrote:
    >>> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >>>> Heat sink already replaced.
    >>>> Any ideas what else to try?
    >>>> Thanks,
    >>>> -FGN.
    >>>
    >>> Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    >>> ...
    >>> Paul

    >> Good point; yes, I did.
    >> -FGN.

    >
    > You'll want to check the area where the copper is supposed to make
    > contact with the GPU. HP uses a thermal pad rather than thermal paste
    > because there is such a large gap.
    >
    > If you replaced the heat sink and just used thermal paste over the GPU,
    > you most likely aren't getting any contact between the chip and the
    > sink. You'll have to either solder a piece of copper onto the heat sink,
    > or get a replacement thermal pad.



    I was given a HP dv2000 that didn't work right. Long story short - I
    tore it down and pulled the heatsink off. Cleaned the thermal pad off of
    the GPU, put the heatsink back on and eyeballed it. There's quite a gap
    there. I didn't have the 'correct' shim material so I improvised. A
    shiny dime and thermal paste fit nicely, a penny seemed like it put a
    little too much pressure on the GPU when the heatsink was back in place.

    The GPU temp don't jump around like it did before, more of a stable rise
    when the GPU's being used and a steady fall when inactive. Sadly I think
    the damage has already been done to the chip. :(

    p.s. - IMO the heatpipe configuration on the heatsink didn't help
    matters. It has the CPU in the middle of the length of the pipe with a
    fan on one end of it and the GPU on the other end.



    --

    </Tazz>
     
    Tazz, Apr 9, 2012
    #12
  13. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Frank Berger Guest

    "Allen Drake" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 14:37:48 -0700 (PDT), "Felipe G. Nievinski"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul <> wrote:
    >>> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >>> > Heat sink already replaced.
    >>> > Any ideas what else to try?
    >>> > Thanks,
    >>> > -FGN.
    >>>
    >>> Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    >>> ...
    >>> Paul

    >>Good point; yes, I did.
    >>-FGN.

    >
    > Have you cleaned fan(s)? I have seen them get pretty dirty. One might
    > think that caked in link it a filter. Sometimes air will not even
    > clean it out.


    My HP dv3t was overheating and shutting down. Upon disassembly, all we
    found was a little clump of dirt/dust in the fan. Cleaning that was all
    that it took to fix it.
     
    Frank Berger, Apr 11, 2012
    #13
  14. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Allen Drake Guest

    On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:58:36 -0500, "Frank Berger"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Allen Drake" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 14:37:48 -0700 (PDT), "Felipe G. Nievinski"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul <> wrote:
    >>>> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >>>> > Heat sink already replaced.
    >>>> > Any ideas what else to try?
    >>>> > Thanks,
    >>>> > -FGN.
    >>>>
    >>>> Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    >>>> ...
    >>>> Paul
    >>>Good point; yes, I did.
    >>>-FGN.

    >>
    >> Have you cleaned fan(s)? I have seen them get pretty dirty. One might
    >> think that caked in link it a filter. Sometimes air will not even
    >> clean it out.

    >
    >My HP dv3t was overheating and shutting down. Upon disassembly, all we
    >found was a little clump of dirt/dust in the fan. Cleaning that was all
    >that it took to fix it.


    Same here. First I thought that clump of dust was a fiber filter it
    was so uniformly packed. I had to dig out with a small hook thinking
    it needed replacement. Then I realized what was going on and saw how
    much dust actually had built up a good clean was all it needed. If I
    had gone through all the trouble of taking the whole thing apart I
    don't know if I would admit how stupid I almost was. ;)
     
    Allen Drake, Apr 11, 2012
    #14
  15. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Bob_Villa Guest

    On Apr 10, 6:58 pm, "Frank Berger" <> wrote:
    > "Allen Drake" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 14:37:48 -0700 (PDT), "Felipe G. Nievinski"
    > > <> wrote:

    >
    > >>On Apr 7, 3:26 am, Paul <> wrote:
    > >>> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    > >>> > Heat sink already replaced.
    > >>> > Any ideas what else to try?
    > >>> > Thanks,
    > >>> > -FGN.

    >
    > >>> Did you use thermal paste when replacing the heatsink ?
    > >>> ...
    > >>> Paul
    > >>Good point; yes, I did.
    > >>-FGN.

    >
    > > Have you cleaned fan(s)? I have seen them get pretty dirty. One might
    > > think that caked in link it a filter. Sometimes air will not even
    > > clean it out.

    >
    > My HP dv3t was overheating and shutting down.  Upon disassembly, all we
    > found was a little clump of dirt/dust in the fan.  Cleaning that was all
    > that it took to fix it.


    Gotta ask...are you a frank or a burger? You can't be both. (I prefer
    burgers!)
     
    Bob_Villa, Apr 12, 2012
    #15
  16. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Brian Cryer Guest

    "BillW50" <> wrote in message
    news:jlqe4o$q68$...
    > In news:,
    > Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >> On Apr 7, 3:18 am, "BillW50" <> wrote:
    >>> Innews:,
    >>>
    >>> Felipe G. Nievinski wrote:
    >>>> Heat sink already replaced.
    >>>> Any ideas what else to try?
    >>>> Thanks,
    >>>> -FGN.
    >>>
    >>> What is the make and model of thislaptop? Doesithave the video chip
    >>> on a card or the motherboard? What kind of CPU doesithave?
    >>>

    >> It's an HP DV69115NR, with an Athlon CPU and an Nvidia GeForce GPU.
    >> I just learned this is an infamous case -- see <http://
    >> www.nvidiasettlement.com/>.
    >> I called HP Support and told them I interested in paying for an
    >> out-of- warranty repair.
    >> They said they won't do it; they're offering a $100 rebate to purchase
    >> a new one.
    >> This is a 4-year old laptop -- too young to die.
    >> I'm going to see what I can do to repair it myself. I'm about to toss
    >> it in the recycle bin.
    >> -FGN.

    >
    > Yes that is exactly what my first guess was. Many people have gotten them
    > working again for two weeks to about 4 months by stripping it down to the
    > motherboard and baking it in an oven for 10 minutes at 400 degrees F.
    > Although I don't think this is too much help really. As it is only going
    > to happen again anyway. ;-(


    Whilst baking it in the oven sounds just wrong, could you tell me where I
    can found ot more? I'd given up on my daughters HP laptop (same symptoms)
    and I'm curious if you have more information on this? If the GPU is at fault
    it is possible to replace it?

    Thanks.
    --
    Brian Cryer
    http://www.cryer.co.uk/brian
     
    Brian Cryer, Apr 12, 2012
    #16
  17. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Paul Guest

    Brian Cryer wrote:

    >
    > Whilst baking it in the oven sounds just wrong, could you tell me where
    > I can found ot more? I'd given up on my daughters HP laptop (same
    > symptoms) and I'm curious if you have more information on this? If the
    > GPU is at fault it is possible to replace it?
    >
    > Thanks.


    The baking process, is to fix cracked solder joints.

    On a real production line, you have a "temperature profile"
    to apply during the soldering process.

    http://enc.ic.polyu.edu.hk/Training_practical/Basic electronic practice/reflow.gif

    Using a toaster oven for doing this kind of work, is lunacy.
    You have no idea whether the balls got to the liquid phase or
    not. Too much heat, and you begin to burn things. But that
    has not stopped people from rescuing equipment that way.
    They've done some video cards that way. But with a larger PCB,
    the problem will be finding a large enough oven. Personally, I
    wouldn't use the oven or heating device, for later preparing food.
    There's bound to be a stink of burned plastic and potentially
    solder residue left afterwards.

    The right way to do this, is with a hot air rework station.
    There are fittings for the head of the device, that can be
    removed. You pick a fitting large enough to encompass the chip
    to be repaired. That is then heated with hot air, while surrounding
    components remain cool. There is also a source of heat you can
    apply to the bottom of the PCB at the same time, so it heats from
    both sides (less stress that way). The bottom heater is probably
    a heat slug, as there's nothing to surround on the bottom. And
    the machine can be programmed to ramp the temperature, do dwell time
    and so on, so you can precisely match the profile recommended by the
    manufacturer of the chip being repaired.

    http://product-image.tradeindia.com/00401612/b/1/Manual-Hot-Air-BGA-Rework-Station-G500.jpg

    That machine also has a vacuum wand, for lifting chips off the board
    while they're still molten. But for this kind of repair (reheat cycle),
    you wouldn't be using the wand, or pulling the chip.

    If you were doing this at a factory, the next step would be a visit
    to the XRay machine, to check how well the soldering process went.
    You can "see" cracked balls, with a 2.5D XRay machine, viewed from
    either side of vertical.

    http://www.lightspeedmfg.com/images/BGA_Repaire_Rework/BGA-X-Ray-1.gif

    Normally, BGA soldering has relatively low defectivity, and you
    don't necessarily have to XRay everything. If you were churning out
    a lot of stuff, you might do statistical inspection, rather than
    do 100% inspection. BGA joints are bad about 1 in 100000 joints.
    (But that's a figure from years ago, and I have no recent data.)
    So you could do, say, 50 motherboards and have one bad solder joint
    underneath a big chip. There are ways to do structural test of the
    PCB, to detect an open solder joint, if one was present. And doing
    that test, would be preferably to tying up an Xray machine (because
    you'd want to do that test anyway).

    To control stress, some chips receive an "underfill", like a resin
    that they apply underneath the chip. I don't really understand how
    this helps. It's supposed to take some of the stress off the
    solder balls, but I couldn't wrap my head around it. Since the
    clearance under the chip is so small, I also couldn't understand
    how you could get a uniform treatment under there. And, what happens
    when you need to do rework, like remove the chip ? I don't think
    we used this technique at work. At least, on nothing my department
    made.

    http://www.somar.co.jp/english/products/img/somatect03.gif

    Paul
     
    Paul, Apr 12, 2012
    #17
  18. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Brian Cryer Guest

    "Paul" <> wrote in message
    news:jm6es2$jnq$...
    > Brian Cryer wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Whilst baking it in the oven sounds just wrong, could you tell me where
    >> I can found ot more? I'd given up on my daughters HP laptop (same
    >> symptoms) and I'm curious if you have more information on this? If the
    >> GPU is at fault it is possible to replace it?
    >>
    >> Thanks.

    >
    > The baking process, is to fix cracked solder joints.


    <snip - good material but not relevant to my reply>

    Nice to get an understanding of what its is, thank you Paul.

    > Using a toaster oven for doing this kind of work, is lunacy.


    I don't think I'm yet a lunatic so it's not something I will try - even if
    others claim success!

    Thanks.
    --
    Brian Cryer
    http://www.cryer.co.uk/brian
     
    Brian Cryer, Apr 12, 2012
    #18
  19. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Ryan P. Guest

    On 4/12/2012 7:06 AM, Brian Cryer wrote:

    >> Using a toaster oven for doing this kind of work, is lunacy.

    >
    > I don't think I'm yet a lunatic so it's not something I will try - even
    > if others claim success!


    The warning is very valid. It wouldn't be a shock to destroy a board
    by doing this. I certainly wouldn't recommend doing this on a
    motherboard you can't afford to gamble with.

    That being said, I have done this to my HP dv6302 with no ill effect.
    Three times, as a matter of fact. The first two times I didn't make the
    oven hot enough because I was scared of melting something. At the lower
    temperatures, the "fix" lasted about 2-3 months. When I finally went to
    a higher temperature, the fix has been solid for 6-8 months so far.

    The concept is pretty simple... You heat the motherboard to point at
    which the solder softens and naturally eliminates any cracks that have
    formed. When you turn off the heat, as the solder cools, it contracts
    slightly and regains solid contact with the GPU.

    Just to show you that its not complicated, here are the steps. Again,
    there are no guarantees it WON'T melt something you don't want melted,
    but I have done it with no issues on my OWN machine.

    You will need an oven, some aluminum foil and a baking sheet or pan.

    1) Disassemble the laptop so you have the bare motherboard.
    2) Remove all cables, wires, batteries, RAM and the sticky plastic
    coverings. Strip it down until you can't remove anything anymore.
    3) Preheat your oven to 395 degrees (I would never use a toaster
    oven... Use a regular household oven, for reasons I'll explain later)
    4) Make four balls with the aluminum foil. Place the motherboard (top
    side up) on the baking sheet, using the balled aluminum foil to raise it
    off the bottom and to keep it as level as possible
    5) Place the motherboard in the oven, leave it be for 8 minutes.
    6) Turn the oven off, and crack open the door. Let the oven cool down
    to room temperature *slowly*. This will allow the solder to contract
    and reharden with less chance of cracks forming. I typically let it sit
    overnight.
    7) Reassemble the laptop, and hopefully enjoy a newly working laptop
    8) Run your oven through a cleaning cycle.

    This is the website I used initially. The only thing I changed is I
    went to 395 degrees instead of 385.
    http://www.computerrepairtips.net/how-to-reflow-a-laptop-motherboard/

    Again, this isn't a guaranteed fix, but if you are either going to try
    this or buy a new laptop anyway, go ahead and try this.
     
    Ryan P., Apr 17, 2012
    #19
  20. Felipe G. Nievinski

    Brian Cryer Guest

    "Ryan P." <> wrote in message
    news:jmjtuc$jja$...
    > On 4/12/2012 7:06 AM, Brian Cryer wrote:
    >
    >>> Using a toaster oven for doing this kind of work, is lunacy.

    >>
    >> I don't think I'm yet a lunatic so it's not something I will try - even
    >> if others claim success!

    >
    > The warning is very valid. It wouldn't be a shock to destroy a board by
    > doing this. I certainly wouldn't recommend doing this on a motherboard
    > you can't afford to gamble with.
    >
    > That being said, I have done this to my HP dv6302 with no ill effect.
    > Three times, as a matter of fact. The first two times I didn't make the
    > oven hot enough because I was scared of melting something. At the lower
    > temperatures, the "fix" lasted about 2-3 months. When I finally went to a
    > higher temperature, the fix has been solid for 6-8 months so far.
    >
    > The concept is pretty simple... You heat the motherboard to point at
    > which the solder softens and naturally eliminates any cracks that have
    > formed. When you turn off the heat, as the solder cools, it contracts
    > slightly and regains solid contact with the GPU.
    >
    > Just to show you that its not complicated, here are the steps. Again,
    > there are no guarantees it WON'T melt something you don't want melted, but
    > I have done it with no issues on my OWN machine.


    <snip>

    Thank you Ryan. Whilst I'm not sure whether I'm brave enough to try this
    yet, I do appreciate the step-by-step explanation. I've not yet decided what
    I should do with my HP, if I end up binning or replacing the motherboard
    then it would do no harm to try ... All the warnings are duly noted.
    --
    Brian Cryer
    http://www.cryer.co.uk/brian
     
    Brian Cryer, Apr 20, 2012
    #20
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