New theory/story: Bios is dead ! Possible evidence: CPU Fan spins slowly.

Discussion in 'Asus' started by Skybuck, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. Skybuck

    Skybuck Guest

    Hello,

    The BIOS chip could be dead.

    Possible evidence:

    When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!

    (Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    to full speed (?))

    Possible invalid evidence:

    Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!

    ^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^

    Possible causes for dead bios:

    1. Bios attack from "crack".

    2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    power surges)

    3. Bugged beta bios killed it.

    4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    properly.

    5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))

    6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.

    7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).

    8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck, Jun 4, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Skybuck

    Eeyore Guest

    Re: New theory/story: Bios is dead ! Possible evidence: CPU Fan spinsslowly.

    Skybuck wrote:

    > Possible causes for dead bios:
    >
    > 1. Bios attack from "crack".


    "Crack" is what you're on.

    Graham
     
    Eeyore, Jun 4, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Skybuck

    Skybuck Guest

    On Jun 4, 9:39 am, Eeyore <>
    wrote:
    > Skybuck wrote:
    > > Possible causes for dead bios:

    >
    > > 1. Bios attack from "crack".

    >
    > "Crack" is what you're on.
    >
    > Graham


    I wish I was then it was all a gigant illusion ;)

    And everything would be fine as the crack's effects were out ;)

    Bye,
    Skybuck =D
     
    Skybuck, Jun 4, 2007
    #3
  4. Skybuck

    Paul Guest

    Re: New theory/story: Bios is dead ! Possible evidence: CPU Fan spinsslowly.

    Skybuck wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >
    > Possible evidence:
    >
    > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >
    > (Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    > to full speed (?))
    >
    > Possible invalid evidence:
    >
    > Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    > since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!
    >
    > ^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^
    >
    > Possible causes for dead bios:
    >
    > 1. Bios attack from "crack".
    >
    > 2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    > power surges)
    >
    > 3. Bugged beta bios killed it.
    >
    > 4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    > properly.
    >
    > 5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))
    >
    > 6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.
    >
    > 7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).
    >
    > 8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).
    >
    > Bye,
    > Skybuck.
    >


    I'm waiting for you to stop crossposting, so someone can help you.
    This doesn't belong in sci.electronics.design. Try posting *only*
    to the alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus group, and then someone can
    walk through a test procedure..

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jun 4, 2007
    #4
  5. Skybuck

    Craig Sutton Guest

    "Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello,
    >
    > The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >
    > Possible evidence:
    >
    > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >


    For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..


    You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which would be
    checking the power supply or trying with another one.

    Or disconnect all the unecessary extra components such as all the extras
    hd's.

    Before faffing around with bios chips and pulling out motherboards and what
    not It would of been the first thing I would of checked.
     
    Craig Sutton, Jun 4, 2007
    #5
  6. On Jun 4, 5:11 pm, Skybuck <> wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >
    > Possible evidence:
    >
    > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >
    > (Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    > to full speed (?))
    >
    > Possible invalid evidence:
    >
    > Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    > since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!
    >
    > ^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^
    >
    > Possible causes for dead bios:
    >
    > 1. Bios attack from "crack".
    >
    > 2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    > power surges)
    >
    > 3. Bugged beta bios killed it.
    >
    > 4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    > properly.
    >
    > 5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))
    >
    > 6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.
    >
    > 7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).
    >
    > 8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).
    >
    > Bye,
    > Skybuck.


    This explains the problem completely:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEBKAC

    Dave.
     
    David L. Jones, Jun 4, 2007
    #6
  7. Skybuck

    Maus Guest

    "David L. Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Jun 4, 5:11 pm, Skybuck <> wrote:
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >>
    >> Possible evidence:
    >>
    >> When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >>
    >> (Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    >> to full speed (?))
    >>
    >> Possible invalid evidence:
    >>
    >> Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    >> since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!
    >>
    >> ^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^
    >>
    >> Possible causes for dead bios:
    >>
    >> 1. Bios attack from "crack".
    >>
    >> 2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    >> power surges)
    >>
    >> 3. Bugged beta bios killed it.
    >>
    >> 4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    >> properly.
    >>
    >> 5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))
    >>
    >> 6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.
    >>
    >> 7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).
    >>
    >> 8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).
    >>
    >> Bye,
    >> Skybuck.

    >
    > This explains the problem completely:
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEBKAC
    >
    > Dave.
    >


    Wrong! i think it's PICNIC!

    Maus

    --
    (\__/)
    (o_O )
    (> < )~
     
    Maus, Jun 4, 2007
    #7
  8. Another possible cause, Motherboard Logo program corrupted the bios.
    Ak


    On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:11:37 -0700, Skybuck <>
    wrote:

    >Hello,
    >
    >The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >
    >Possible evidence:
    >
    >When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >
    >(Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    >to full speed (?))
    >
    >Possible invalid evidence:
    >
    >Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    >since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!
    >
    >^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^
    >
    >Possible causes for dead bios:
    >
    >1. Bios attack from "crack".
    >
    >2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    >power surges)
    >
    >3. Bugged beta bios killed it.
    >
    >4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    >properly.
    >
    >5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))
    >
    >6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.
    >
    >7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).
    >
    >8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).
    >
    >Bye,
    > Skybuck.
     
    Alfred Kaufmann, Jun 4, 2007
    #8
  9. Skybuck

    John Larkin Guest

    On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:11:37 -0700, Skybuck <>
    wrote:

    >Hello,
    >
    >The BIOS chip could be dead.


    The more you muck with this board, the more damage you are going to
    do. You don't have 5% of the knowledge or the tools to work on
    something this complex. Either get a new motherboard, or send this one
    back for repair. Expect to pay for repair, as you have likely voided
    the warranty by messing with it.

    And please don't post this endless tale of woe to s.e.d. It's actually
    not appropriate.

    John
     
    John Larkin, Jun 4, 2007
    #9
  10. Skybuck

    Jim Yanik Guest

    "Craig Sutton" <> wrote in
    news:f40fgp$7su$:

    >
    > "Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >>
    >> Possible evidence:
    >>
    >> When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >>

    >
    > For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..
    >
    >
    > You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which
    > would be checking the power supply or trying with another one.
    >
    > Or disconnect all the unecessary extra components such as all the
    > extras hd's.
    >
    > Before faffing around with bios chips and pulling out motherboards and
    > what not It would of been the first thing I would of checked.
    >
    >
    >
    >


    My PC(900Mhz Athlon) was having trouble BECAUSE of a bad PC fan.
    It was loading the PS and causing reboots.And the fan was still turning at
    speed,not slow.

    --
    Jim Yanik
    jyanik
    at
    kua.net
     
    Jim Yanik, Jun 4, 2007
    #10
  11. Skybuck

    default Guest

    On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:11:37 -0700, Skybuck <>
    wrote:


    First check the CMOS battery. Most will run with a dead battery but
    it is a pain having to enter the settings every time you power it up.

    What are the Power On Self Test codes telling you? The computer
    should beep the internal speaker one time if everything is working.
    More than once means you have a problem - the motherboard manual
    should tell you what the beeps are indicating is wrong. Research POST
    codes for the mobo you have if that's the case. The POST is there so
    you have some way to troubleshoot if the display or keyboard is having
    problems.

    If it beeps once and fails to boot, but the screen comes up, use the
    start up disc, your master boot record must be damaged. The boot
    record is corrupt, missing or not where the BIOS expects to find it.

    There's a DOS command for restoring the master boot record, RMBR, but
    it depends on your version of windows or what OS you are using.
    Research the problem if that's the case. Drive overlays, and added
    stuff like PCI hard drive controllers may require a non standard boot
    for everything to function properly. Plain vanilla computers are
    easier to fix.
    >
    >1. Bios attack from "crack".


    Unlikely. You're the computer expert - certainly you didn't kill it.
    >
    >2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    >power surges)
    >

    Lightening and Tesla coils can write to the bios settings on my
    system, but they only change the date time, and maybe at worse, I'll
    have to re detect the hard drives. That last has only happened once.

    >3. Bugged beta bios killed it.


    Are you flashing the BIOS? That is asking for trouble with most
    motherboards. You said something about an Asus board in one post,
    they are supposed to be almost idiot proof with their flashing system.
    >
    >4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    >properly.
    >

    The ONLY time one flashes a BIOS is to upgrade to allow it to handle
    some piece of added hardware or to eliminate a bug in the original
    flashing - Flashing the BIOS is a last resort no matter how good you
    are with computers. Last resort - means you have already spare BIOS
    in one hand or a back up computer and really, really, need it.

    Best plan is don't flash - unless of course you bought an ASUS with
    the foolproof flashing and bad flash recovery.

    >5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))


    Anything is possible
    >
    >6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.
    >

    You were wearing your "summer shoes" again and shuffling across the
    carpet?

    >7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).


    Wrong settings are common - they will make it look like the BIOS or
    MoBo is bad - but there's usually a choice somewhere in the BIOS setup
    that allows one to chose default settings - to bring it back to
    something that should work, then you just have to choose "detect hard
    drives" or enter the number of heads and cylinders from the HDD spec
    sheet manually.
    >
    >8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).


    The BIOS itself runs cool, it doesn't do much except start the
    computer and hold the settings, it doesn't use a lot of power - they
    have to run on batteries for back up. If the BIOS dies from heat, it
    would probably be due to another source of heat - a hard drive or
    processor is more likely to die of heat, it generates.
    --

    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
    ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
     
    default, Jun 4, 2007
    #11
  12. Skybuck

    Nico Coesel Guest

    "Craig Sutton" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >>
    >> Possible evidence:
    >>
    >> When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >>

    >
    >For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..
    >
    >
    >You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which would be
    >checking the power supply or trying with another one.
    >
    >Or disconnect all the unecessary extra components such as all the extras
    >hd's.
    >
    >Before faffing around with bios chips and pulling out motherboards and what
    >not It would of been the first thing I would of checked.


    Save your keyboard. Skybuck is a well known retard. Just ignore it.

    --
    Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
    Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
     
    Nico Coesel, Jun 4, 2007
    #12
  13. Skybuck

    Skybuck Guest

    On 4 jun, 09:42, "Craig Sutton" <> wrote:
    > "Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    > > Hello,

    >
    > > The BIOS chip could be dead.

    >
    > > Possible evidence:

    >
    > > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!

    >
    > For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..


    It's the most likely problem honey ;)

    > You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which would be
    > checking the power supply or trying with another one.


    To risky to **** around with my other computers I need them ;)

    The green light on the motherboard is on indicating the power supply
    is ok ?!


    > Or disconnect all the unecessary extra components such as all the extras
    > hd's.


    Well duh, ofcourse I already disconnected as much as possible, except
    the 4 GB chips... I simply left those in ;)

    Now the motherboard is out though, I am done with testing and trying
    to get it to work... first I might need replacement parts.

    > Before faffing around with bios chips and pulling out motherboards and what
    > not It would of been the first thing I would of checked.


    Been there done that :)

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck, Jun 4, 2007
    #13
  14. Skybuck

    Skybuck Guest

    On 4 jun, 17:07, John Larkin
    <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 00:11:37 -0700, Skybuck <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Hello,

    >
    > >The BIOS chip could be dead.

    >
    > The more you muck with this board, the more damage you are going to
    > do. You don't have 5% of the knowledge or the tools to work on
    > something this complex. Either get a new motherboard, or send this one
    > back for repair. Expect to pay for repair, as you have likely voided
    > the warranty by messing with it.
    >
    > And please don't post this endless tale of woe to s.e.d. It's actually
    > not appropriate.
    >
    > John


    The motherboard should be well designed to take my tiny little
    beating ;)

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck, Jun 4, 2007
    #14
  15. Skybuck

    Skybuck Guest

    On 4 jun, 09:40, Paul <> wrote:
    > Skybuck wrote:
    > > Hello,

    >
    > > The BIOS chip could be dead.

    >
    > > Possible evidence:

    >
    > > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!

    >
    > > (Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    > > to full speed (?))

    >
    > > Possible invalid evidence:

    >
    > > Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    > > since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!

    >
    > > ^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^

    >
    > > Possible causes for dead bios:

    >
    > > 1. Bios attack from "crack".

    >
    > > 2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    > > power surges)

    >
    > > 3. Bugged beta bios killed it.

    >
    > > 4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    > > properly.

    >
    > > 5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))

    >
    > > 6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.

    >
    > > 7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).

    >
    > > 8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).

    >
    > > Bye,
    > > Skybuck.

    >
    > I'm waiting for you to stop crossposting, so someone can help you.
    > This doesn't belong in sci.electronics.design. Try posting *only*
    > to the alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus group, and then someone can
    > walk through a test procedure..
    >
    > Paul- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
    >
    > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -


    It does belong in sci.electronics.design.

    What do you think a BIOS chip is hmm ? ;)

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck, Jun 4, 2007
    #15
  16. Skybuck

    James Beck Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On 4 jun, 09:42, "Craig Sutton" <> wrote:
    > > "Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    > >
    > > news:...
    > >
    > > > Hello,

    > >
    > > > The BIOS chip could be dead.

    > >
    > > > Possible evidence:

    > >
    > > > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!

    > >
    > > For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..

    >
    > It's the most likely problem honey ;)
    >
    > > You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which would be
    > > checking the power supply or trying with another one.

    >
    > To risky to **** around with my other computers I need them ;)
    >
    > The green light on the motherboard is on indicating the power supply
    > is ok ?!

    Nope, just standby voltage is present.
    Not an indicator that the voltage is good/correct, so on.

    Swapping the power supply out is always a good start.


    Jim
     
    James Beck, Jun 4, 2007
    #16
  17. Skybuck

    w_tom Guest

    On Jun 4, 3:12 pm, Skybuck <> wrote:
    > The motherboard should be well designed to take my tiny little
    > beating ;)


    Maybe. But more changes may only exponentially complicate the
    problem. BIOS does not operate until it receives a signal from the
    power supply controller. The power supply 'system' (which is more
    than just a power supply) can be completely defective and still a
    light glows; fan spins. There is no way around numbers. There is no
    way around first confirming the power supply 'system' is functional.
    That is two minutes with a 3.5 digit multimeter - a tool so ubiquitous
    as to be sold even in Kmart (and Radio Shack, Lowes, Tru-value
    Hardware, Sear, Wal-Mart, Home Depot....)

    Procedure is posted in "When your computer dies without
    warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp
    at:
    http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh

    Use numbers in that discussion AND post numbers here for further
    information (and to learn what those numbers say).

    Never swap parts or change wires until a suspect has been
    identified. Two minutes with a meter will either accuse or exonerate
    the power supply 'system'. Only then are you ready to move on to
    other suspects. Doing it this way means you know what is good and
    what is definitively bad. Currently, everything remains unknown - the
    third state.

    Get the meter. Use the procedure. Report back the numbers. Two
    minutes to uncomplicated a problem.
     
    w_tom, Jun 4, 2007
    #17
  18. Skybuck

    Ron Krebs Guest

    "Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello,
    >
    > The BIOS chip could be dead.
    >
    > Possible evidence:
    >
    > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!
    >
    > (Some have said the cpu fan is controlled by motherboard and spins up
    > to full speed (?))
    >
    > Possible invalid evidence:
    >
    > Graphics cards fans spin up to 100%, this is probably invalid evidence
    > since these fans could be controlled by the cards themselfes ?!
    >
    > ^^^ These do spin up last time I checked ^^^
    >
    > Possible causes for dead bios:
    >
    > 1. Bios attack from "crack".
    >
    > 2. Bios corruption from many resets because of system freeze. (Maybe
    > power surges)
    >
    > 3. Bugged beta bios killed it.
    >
    > 4. Flashing could be bad, some transistors failed to be flashed
    > properly.
    >
    > 5. Bad quality of bios chip. (Possibly refurbished motherboard (?))
    >
    > 6. Bios chip damaged by touching it.
    >
    > 7. Wrong settings killed bios chip (?).
    >
    > 8. Too much heat killed bios chip (?).
    >
    > Bye,
    > Skybuck.
    >


    The answer is simple. The motherboard is dirty. Carefully place the board
    into a plastic tub half-filled with hydroflouric acid (5% solution) and
    allow it to soak for 24 hours. If you're really in a hurry, make it 50%
    solution. This will thoroughly clean the bios contacts and, well,
    everything else on the board with remarkable results. It also works wonders
    on you car windows.

    Ron
     
    Ron Krebs, Jun 4, 2007
    #18
  19. Skybuck

    Marra Guest

    On 4 Jun, 08:42, "Craig Sutton" <> wrote:
    > "Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    > > Hello,

    >
    > > The BIOS chip could be dead.

    >
    > > Possible evidence:

    >
    > > When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!

    >
    > For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..
    >
    > You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which would be
    > checking the power supply or trying with another one.
    >
    > Or disconnect all the unecessary extra components such as all the extras
    > hd's.
    >
    > Before faffing around with bios chips and pulling out motherboards and what
    > not It would of been the first thing I would of checked.


    Just change the fecking motherboard and stop harassing us !
    You cant fix it !
     
    Marra, Jun 4, 2007
    #19
  20. Skybuck

    Jamie Guest

    Re: New theory/story: Bios is dead ! Possible evidence: CPU Fan spinsslowly.

    Skybuck wrote:

    > On 4 jun, 09:42, "Craig Sutton" <> wrote:
    >
    >>"Skybuck" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >>news:...
    >>
    >>
    >>>Hello,

    >>
    >>>The BIOS chip could be dead.

    >>
    >>>Possible evidence:

    >>
    >>>When turning on the power the cpu fan spins slowly ?!

    >>
    >>For gods sake.. get over the fixation of fans, static and bios chips..

    >
    >
    > It's the most likely problem honey ;)
    >
    >
    >>You havn't even done the most simple of checking procedures. Which would be
    >>checking the power supply or trying with another one.

    >
    >
    > To risky to **** around with my other computers I need them ;)
    >
    > The green light on the motherboard is on indicating the power supply
    > is ok ?!
    >
    >
    >
    >>Or disconnect all the unecessary extra components such as all the extras
    >>hd's.

    >
    >
    > Well duh, ofcourse I already disconnected as much as possible, except
    > the 4 GB chips... I simply left those in ;)
    >
    > Now the motherboard is out though, I am done with testing and trying
    > to get it to work... first I might need replacement parts.
    >
    >
    >>Before faffing around with bios chips and pulling out motherboards and what
    >>not It would of been the first thing I would of checked.

    >
    >
    > Been there done that :)
    >
    > Bye,
    > Skybuck.
    >

    ha, you didn't pull the memory ?
    you should at least do that to see if you get the memory error code beep !
    if so, that would tell you that you have a bad chip.

    --
    "I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
    Real Programmers Do things like this.
    http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
     
    Jamie, Jun 4, 2007
    #20
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