Pop goes the [mountain lion] POP?

Discussion in 'Apple' started by John Albert, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. John Albert

    John Albert Guest

    Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and
    installed it on a spare partition just to see if I could.

    Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a
    option to set up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the
    only option available.

    Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just
    trying to push the issue by denying the choice to set up for
    POP if you want to?

    (Aside: just switched from DSL to ATT Uverse a week ago, and
    over the past 24 hours my email has become unworkable. Can
    receive but can't send due to time-outs or rejected
    password. Trying to get through to Uverse tech support is an
    exercise in frustration)
     
    John Albert, Mar 2, 2012
    #1
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  2. John Albert

    JF Mezei Guest

    John Albert wrote:

    > Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just
    > trying to push the issue by denying the choice to set up for
    > POP if you want to?


    You can always install Dovecot yourself. Apple uses that public domain
    software for the POP server.

    > (Aside: just switched from DSL to ATT Uverse a week ago,


    UVerse is also DSL. Just a more recent version of DSL (called VDSL2)

    Are you able to telnet <name of smtp server> 25 ?

    Are you using a SMTP server provided by AT&T or another provider ? AT&T
    would likly block port 25. You can usually use port 587 instead of port
    25 but you will liekly need to add suername/password to authenticate to
    the remote SMTP server.
     
    JF Mezei, Mar 2, 2012
    #2
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  3. John Albert

    dorayme Guest

    In article <4f50507e$0$2717$>,
    John Albert <> wrote:

    > Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and
    > installed it on a spare partition just to see if I could.
    >
    > Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a
    > option to set up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the
    > only option available.
    >


    All this changing of things is best explained by that you earthlings
    are *bored* and have no real work to do. So you plough your energies
    into making new OSs, talking about new OSs, must be new, everything
    must be new, no matter that the old is quite good enough to do lots of
    good work.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Mar 2, 2012
    #3
  4. In article <4f50507e$0$2717$>,
    John Albert <> wrote:

    > Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and
    > installed it on a spare partition just to see if I could.
    >
    > Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a
    > option to set up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the
    > only option available.
    >
    > Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just
    > trying to push the issue by denying the choice to set up for
    > POP if you want to?


    Comcast, one of the biggest ISPs in the US, doesn't offer IMAP, and has
    not announced any plans to add it. So unless Apple knows something, I
    think it's unlikely they'll remove POP in the final version of Lion.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
     
    Barry Margolin, Mar 2, 2012
    #4
  5. John Albert

    Bread Guest

    On 2012-03-02 16:09:52 +0000, Barry Margolin said:

    > In article <4f50507e$0$2717$>,
    > John Albert <> wrote:
    >
    >> Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and
    >> installed it on a spare partition just to see if I could.
    >>
    >> Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a
    >> option to set up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the
    >> only option available.
    >>
    >> Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just
    >> trying to push the issue by denying the choice to set up for
    >> POP if you want to?

    >
    > Comcast, one of the biggest ISPs in the US, doesn't offer IMAP, and has
    > not announced any plans to add it. So unless Apple knows something, I
    > think it's unlikely they'll remove POP in the final version of Lion.


    Yet another reason to keep your mail provider separate from your
    connectivity provider.

    I, too, would be pretty surprised to see Apple stop support for POP.
    Though, as I've said many times here, most folks really should move
    away from it now.

    Anyway, even if Apple stops supporting POP in Mail.app, there are
    plenty of third-party alternatives from Thunderbird to Postbox, and
    many of them integrate the built-in AddressBook just fine now.
     
    Bread, Mar 2, 2012
    #5
  6. John Albert

    Davoud Guest

    Bread:
    > I, too, would be pretty surprised to see Apple stop support for POP.
    > Though, as I've said many times here, most folks really should move
    > away from it now.


    If only "most folks" would acknowledge that you are a good who knows
    what they should do, and not a mere mortal who really only knows what
    you should do, I'm sure they would obey.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Mar 2, 2012
    #6
  7. John Albert <> wrote:

    > Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and
    > installed it on a spare partition just to see if I could.
    >
    > Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a
    > option to set up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the
    > only option available.


    You mean it won't establish an account at all with a service that only
    offers POP?


    > Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just
    > trying to push the issue by denying the choice to set up for
    > POP if you want to?


    Apple has been pushing IMAP for quite a while. Recent versions of Mail
    make it difficult to set up POP with a service that also offers IMAP.


    > (Aside: just switched from DSL to ATT Uverse a week ago, and
    > over the past 24 hours my email has become unworkable. Can
    > receive but can't send due to time-outs or rejected
    > password. Trying to get through to Uverse tech support is an
    > exercise in frustration)


    From a consumer's perspective, AT&T has become truly horrible. I'm all
    for competition, but I must concede that AT&T was more consumer-friendly
    when it was a government-protected monopoly.
     
    Neill Massello, Mar 2, 2012
    #7
  8. John Albert

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-03-01 23:45 , John Albert wrote:
    > Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and installed it on a
    > spare partition just to see if I could.
    >
    > Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a option to set
    > up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the only option available.
    >
    > Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just trying to
    > push the issue by denying the choice to set up for POP if you want to?


    I hope POP remains. IMAP is a messy disaster with Gmail and my ISP's
    servers.

    A (quick) google on the issue doesn't show others raising the problem.
    Could it be with your system in some way?

    --
    "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.
    I said I didn't know."
    -Samuel Clemens.
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 2, 2012
    #8
  9. In article <>,
    Alan Browne <> wrote:

    > On 2012-03-01 23:45 , John Albert wrote:
    > > Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and installed it on a
    > > spare partition just to see if I could.
    > >
    > > Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a option to set
    > > up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the only option available.
    > >
    > > Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just trying to
    > > push the issue by denying the choice to set up for POP if you want to?

    >
    > I hope POP remains. IMAP is a messy disaster with Gmail and my ISP's
    > servers.
    >
    > A (quick) google on the issue doesn't show others raising the problem.
    > Could it be with your system in some way?


    I wouldn't expect much public discussion of Mountain Lion -- aren't they
    all under NDA?

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
     
    Barry Margolin, Mar 2, 2012
    #9
  10. John Albert

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2012-03-02 17:59 , Barry Margolin wrote:
    > In article<>,
    > Alan Browne<> wrote:
    >
    >> On 2012-03-01 23:45 , John Albert wrote:
    >>> Got ahold of the Mountain Lion developer preview, and installed it on a
    >>> spare partition just to see if I could.
    >>>
    >>> Went to set up the Mail app, and found there isn't even a option to set
    >>> up for a POP server anymore. IMAP is now the only option available.
    >>>
    >>> Are POP servers indeed a thing of the past, or is Apple just trying to
    >>> push the issue by denying the choice to set up for POP if you want to?

    >>
    >> I hope POP remains. IMAP is a messy disaster with Gmail and my ISP's
    >> servers.
    >>
    >> A (quick) google on the issue doesn't show others raising the problem.
    >> Could it be with your system in some way?

    >
    > I wouldn't expect much public discussion of Mountain Lion -- aren't they
    > all under NDA?


    About specifics I guess. But other stuff leaks as it did for Lion
    (changes to Finder for example, not sure if Apple "approved" that info
    going out.).


    --
    "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.
    I said I didn't know."
    -Samuel Clemens.
     
    Alan Browne, Mar 2, 2012
    #10
  11. John Albert

    John Young Guest


    > Apple has been pushing IMAP for quite a while. Recent versions of Mail
    > make it difficult to set up POP with a service that also offers IMAP.

    How so? When I set up a new account the first thing on the second window
    is a drop down asking what kind of acc to set up. The first is Pop the
    second is IMAP. This is before I tell them what service I will be using.
    I use three. I have some Pop accounts and some IMAP.
    I'm running Lion 10.7.3 and Mail 5.2.
    Sooooooo If I don't change the drop down the default is POP!.
    I don't call this pushing IMAP but I might be missing something and I
    really don't have a horse in this race since I like the option of using
    both and do use both.
     
    John Young, Mar 3, 2012
    #11
  12. John Albert

    John Young Guest

    In article <020320121410371213%>, Davoud <>
    wrote:

    > If only "most folks" would acknowledge that you are a good who knows
    > what they should do, and not a mere mortal who really only knows what
    > you should do, I'm sure they would obey.


    I acknowledge he is a good
     
    John Young, Mar 3, 2012
    #12
  13. John Albert

    John Albert Guest

    On 3/2/12 11:09 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
    > Comcast, one of the biggest ISPs in the US, doesn't offer IMAP, and has
    > not announced any plans to add it. So unless Apple knows something, I
    > think it's unlikely they'll remove POP in the final version of Lion.


    What you write may indeed be true, but I don't see too much
    changed in Mail -- OTHER THAN the fact that the POP option
    is completely gone.

    Why remove it (when it obviously was there and working in
    Lion's Mail.app), unless the removal was deliberate and
    intentional?
     
    John Albert, Mar 3, 2012
    #13
  14. John Albert

    John Albert Guest

    Neill wrote:
    "You mean it won't establish an account at all with a
    service that only offers POP?"

    Correct. No "POP option" there. Nothing.

    "Apple has been pushing IMAP for quite a while. Recent
    versions of Mail make it difficult to set up POP with a
    service that also offers IMAP."

    Looks to me like Apple has made the decision that if you
    want to use Mail, you'll HAVE TO use IMAP, whether you like
    it or not. As mentioned in another reply, at least one large
    ISP (Comcast) doesn't even offer IMAP. Where will that leave
    Apple/Comcast users?
     
    John Albert, Mar 3, 2012
    #14
  15. John Albert

    John Albert Guest

    Alan writes:
    "I hope POP remains. IMAP is a messy disaster with Gmail
    and my ISP's servers.
    A (quick) google on the issue doesn't show others raising
    the problem. Could it be with your system in some way?"

    I've have 2 other Macs here, running software that ranges
    from 10.3.9 to 10.7.3 (and in between). Each one has various
    partitions with different usable system boot options, and
    ALL of them are set up to run my mail via POP.

    The very first thing I noticed when I tried to set up
    Mountain Lion Mail was in the opening dialog (that you get
    when running the software from its "virgin" state), there is
    no choice between "POP" or "IMAP". IMAP is all there is. I
    kept thinking I was doing something wrong. If the option for
    POP is in fact there, I can't find it.
     
    John Albert, Mar 3, 2012
    #15
  16. John Young <> wrote:

    > > Apple has been pushing IMAP for quite a while. Recent versions of Mail
    > > make it difficult to set up POP with a service that also offers IMAP.

    > How so? When I set up a new account the first thing on the second window
    > is a drop down asking what kind of acc to set up. The first is Pop the
    > second is IMAP. This is before I tell them what service I will be using.
    > I use three. I have some Pop accounts and some IMAP.
    > I'm running Lion 10.7.3 and Mail 5.2.
    > Sooooooo If I don't change the drop down the default is POP!.
    > I don't call this pushing IMAP but I might be missing something and I
    > really don't have a horse in this race since I like the option of using
    > both and do use both.


    To get that pop-up menu in the second pane of Mail's Add Account
    procedure, you need to omit the password in the first pane. Otherwise,
    Mail will look for a responsive IMAP server and, if it finds one, will
    omit the pop-up in the next pane. I'll grant you that leaving the
    password field empty isn't a very "difficult" work-around, but the
    standard procedure is hiding the POP option from the typical user who
    just follows directions. This is all done to make setup as simple as
    possible, but it clearly prefers IMAP -- in a way that I consider
    somewhat pushy.
     
    Neill Massello, Mar 3, 2012
    #16
  17. John Albert

    JF Mezei Guest

    OK, so the discussion is about a POP client. From reading the OP I
    though he/she was referring to the POP server on OSX.

    If Apple is moving in the direction of IMAP, it might have something to
    do with iCoud.

    POP is architecturally icompatible with cloud services because it wants
    local storage of a copy of the email. It is much harder to propagae some
    emails to all yur devices if they are stored on a computer and not on
    the iCloud.
     
    JF Mezei, Mar 3, 2012
    #17
  18. In article <4f516f72$0$2711$>,
    John Albert <> wrote:

    > Looks to me like Apple has made the decision that if you want to use
    > Mail, you'll HAVE TO use IMAP, whether you like it or not. As mentioned
    > in another reply, at least one large ISP (Comcast) doesn't even offer
    > IMAP. Where will that leave Apple/Comcast users?


    Looks to me that this is a first developer preview, and is not feature
    complete. Just because POP is missing from this release doesn't mean that
    it won't be in the final version.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Mar 3, 2012
    #18
  19. In article <1kgcd8c.anq4imzahv94N%>,
    (Neill Massello) wrote:

    > To get that pop-up menu in the second pane of Mail's Add Account
    > procedure, you need to omit the password in the first pane. Otherwise,
    > Mail will look for a responsive IMAP server and, if it finds one, will
    > omit the pop-up in the next pane.


    Well, I included the password in the first pane, and Mail found a POP
    server, and said it would use it.

    Omitting the password, I got the popup menu, listing POP, IMAP, Exchange,
    and IMAP Exchange as the server types. But before I got that, I got an
    alert saying to check the data.

    --
    Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
    People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Mar 3, 2012
    #19
  20. John Albert

    Bread Guest

    On 2012-03-02 20:21:39 +0000, Neill Massello said:
    >
    > Apple has been pushing IMAP for quite a while. Recent versions of Mail
    > make it difficult to set up POP with a service that also offers IMAP.


    I'm not sure they're "pushing IMAP" but they have, in my opinion, while
    trying to make setting up your mail account easy, dumbed it down to a
    very annoying level.

    When you click the + to add an account now, it opens some sort of "add
    account wizard" which has you fill in your mail address and click "next
    step" and it tries to figure stuff out for you. I'd very much prefer
    the older method where such a microsoft-like wizard is an option and
    when you click the + button, it just sets up a mail account with blank
    content where you just go and fill in the settings you'd like.

    And Mail has pretty much always been horrible for setting up multiple
    mail "personalities" or available "from" addresses. The official
    method is to set up the account and then add the additional "from"
    addresses, separated by commas, on the e-mail address line in the
    settings. That's not obvious, and it's rather half-assed.

    Those quirks aside, for the most part, Mail has been getting better and
    better though I think I liked Mail under SL better than any other
    version Apple's shipped. And I've been using Postbox lately and like
    it even better.

    (And yes, Davoud, for most people, IMAP is better. Especially nowadays
    with people accessing their mail from multiple places such as
    smartphones and more than one computer, especially nowadays with
    generally faster net connections. And how often do we keep seeing the
    old "how do I get my old mail messages from program X to program Y?"
    pop up - it's just entirely moot with IMAP. There may be occasional
    circumstances where POP is still better, but there's absolutely nothing
    you can do with POP that you cannot do with IMAP - including preferring
    all mail to be stored locally. The reverse is simply not true.)
     
    Bread, Mar 3, 2012
    #20
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