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PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?

Discussion in 'Nvidia' started by parallax-scroll, Nov 25, 2009.

  1. It still seems way too early to be talking about the PlayStation 4 and
    yet, rumored news continues to pop up everywhere.

    The latest is big, if it proves true: according to European source
    PS3Clan, it seems SCEI "has officially chosen" the technical setup for
    their next PlayStation iteration, which supposedly - depending on if
    you believe the translation - will launch in 2012. The choice? The
    PowerVR Series 6 by Imagination Technologies that utilizes a
    technology known as "TBDR," which is "3-5 times better than a
    competitive level nVidia/ATI Graphics card." Evidently, Sega used TBDR
    to help power the old Sega Dreamcast and if you remember, that console
    was definitely ahead of its time in the visual department. But perhaps
    the most interesting part about all of this is that Sony will retain
    the Cell processor currently in all PS3s; this new piece of advanced
    technology from Imagination will work with the Cell. The quote in
    question is as follows, although you may wish to take it with a grain
    of salt without any official information:

    "The PlayStation 4 shall use a high end variant of the 6 Series line.
    Performance, specifications and features are at this time unknown. The
    Series 6 shall receive an official announcement from IMGTEC sometime
    in 2010, with initial models targeting the smartphone and netbook
    sector."

    On top of which, the rumor gets bigger by saying that SCEI has
    furthered opted to work with IMGTEC for the next iteration of the PSP;
    the new handheld will get the benefit of the Series 5XT. All of this
    may sound like complete gibberish unless you're really into hardware
    or programming but if it's all true, this is the first solid piece of
    technical information we've seen concerning the PS4. The only doubt we
    have is whether or not it'll be available by 2012... However, if you
    think about it, the time frame would be in line with the last
    generation; the PS2 launched in late October and the PS3 launched in
    November of 2006. So you never know.

    http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/6173.html
    http://playstationlifestyle.net/2009/11/24/ps4-to-use-superior-graphics-card/
    http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/11/18/gpu-chosen-for-ps4-out-in-2012/


    Sounds like 1997-1998 all over again, I mean, Sega Dreamcast...It was,
    at first, rumored to use a high-end variant of PowerVR Series 2, then
    it really happened. Now supposedly PS4 in 2012 with PowerVR Series 6
    (and apparently PSP2 with Series 5) ?? Amusing if true. The more
    things change, the more they stay the same.
     
    parallax-scroll, Nov 25, 2009
    #1
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  2. parallax-scroll

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    Jim wrote:
    > With IBM out x86+Larrabee looks more likely than PoweVR. Intel can make an
    > offer Sony can't refuse.


    Except that Larrabee isn't proven yet. PS4 can still go to a more
    traditional regular PowerPC processor along with a traditional GPU,
    making it more like the Xbox360.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    Yousuf Khan, Nov 26, 2009
    #2
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  3. * Jim:

    > IBM is still on board the Cell train afterall so we can expect Cell to stay.


    Nope, it isn't. IBM discontinues all Cell development. Cell is dead.

    Benjamin
     
    Benjamin Gawert, Nov 27, 2009
    #3
  4. parallax-scroll

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    Jim wrote:
    > "Yousuf Khan" <> wrote in message
    > news:4b0ee987$-lp.com...
    >> Except that Larrabee isn't proven yet.

    > The same could have been said of Cell. Without crazy Ken shooting for the
    > moon we can expect a "cheap" PS4. I'm not expecting much from Larrabee (its
    > just a supercharged PentiumMMX afterall) but with Intel's fab capacity it
    > should be cheap.


    Cheapness has nothing to do with fab capacity, it has everything to do
    with die sizes: the smaller the better. Current estimates are that
    Larrabee will be *big*.

    > IBM is still on board the Cell train afterall so we can expect Cell to stay.


    You missed the other part of this thread that said otherwise.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    Yousuf Khan, Nov 27, 2009
    #4
  5. parallax-scroll

    Bill Cable Guest

    On Nov 27, 3:15 pm, Yousuf Khan <> wrote:
    >
    > You missed the other part of this thread that said otherwise.
    >
    >         Yousuf Khan


    Based on what I Googled, one division of IBM is off the Cell... not
    the whole of IBM.

    --
    Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
    http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
     
    Bill Cable, Nov 27, 2009
    #5
  6. parallax-scroll

    YKhan Guest

    On Nov 27, 4:24 pm, Bill Cable <> wrote:
    > On Nov 27, 3:15 pm, Yousuf Khan <> wrote:
    > > You missed the other part of this thread that said otherwise.

    >
    > Based on what I Googled, one division of IBM is off the Cell...  not
    > the whole of IBM.


    The link has already been posted in another part of the thread. Here
    it is again.

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...l_Processor_Plans_to_Change_Cell_Concept.html
     
    YKhan, Nov 27, 2009
    #6
  7. parallax-scroll

    YKhan Guest

    On Nov 25, 9:53 pm, "First of One" <r...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
    > According to John Carmack, at least one of the next-gen consoles won't have
    > an optical drive. Who's up for 25GB game downloads? :)


    Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days.
    Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges,
    flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB,
    meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in
    capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like
    they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives.
     
    YKhan, Nov 27, 2009
    #7
  8. parallax-scroll

    Miles Bader Guest

    "First of One" <root@127.0.0.1> writes:
    > The PS2 could also do both edge AA and even FSAA (with both supersampling
    > and multisampling), but early games evidently didn't use them. Sony's early
    > developments tools may have been crappy.


    Perhaps it's just the laziness of developers, but as far as I've seen,
    the vast majority of PS2 games looked awful right up to the end.

    -Miles

    --
    x
    y
    Z!
     
    Miles Bader, Nov 28, 2009
    #8
  9. * YKhan:

    > Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days.
    > Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges,
    > flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB,
    > meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in
    > capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like
    > they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives.


    A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB
    Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash
    as medium.

    Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical
    distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper,
    but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are
    locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing
    models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible.

    Benjamin
     
    Benjamin Gawert, Nov 28, 2009
    #9
  10. * Bill Cable:

    > Based on what I Googled, one division of IBM is off the Cell... not
    > the whole of IBM.


    You didn't google very well then:
    <http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/11/end-of-the-line-for-ibms-cell.ars>

    Benjamin
     
    Benjamin Gawert, Nov 28, 2009
    #10
  11. parallax-scroll

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, Benjamin Gawert <> wrote:
    >* YKhan:
    >
    >> Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days.
    >> Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges,
    >> flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB,
    >> meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in
    >> capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like
    >> they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives.

    >
    >A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB
    >Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash
    >as medium.
    >
    >Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical
    >distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper,
    >but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are
    >locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing
    >models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible.
    >
    >Benjamin

    Oh please, I picked up 6 32Gb SDHC cards off of ebay for $8 a piece.

    So in a few years, its very possible youll see 50GB thumb drives or memory
    cards for retail at that price. You already can get 16 GB for under $10 at
    best buy all the time
     
    GMAN, Nov 28, 2009
    #11
  12. parallax-scroll

    YKhan Guest

    On Nov 28, 2:11 am, Benjamin Gawert <> wrote:
    > A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB
    > Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash
    > as medium.


    I picked up a 16GB Class 6 (highest speed class) SDHC card for $20
    including shipping on Ebay. I'm sure it cost whoever was selling it
    much less for him to buy it.

    > Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical
    > distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper,
    > but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are
    > locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing
    > models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible.


    That's entirely possible, and that's the reason they'd want to get rid
    of the optical drive. A small flash drive slot would be a much more
    cost effective non-permanent storage medium than a disk drive.
    Physical distribution isn't going away, just the optical disk physical
    distribution. And you can't rely on the Internet to download your
    games when you need them.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    YKhan, Nov 30, 2009
    #12
  13. * GMAN:
    > Oh please, I picked up 6 32Gb SDHC cards off of ebay for $8 a piece.


    Yeah, great. I can have 50GB Bluray disks mass produced for less than
    $0.50 to $0.70 per disk, depending on how many I need.

    > So in a few years, its very possible youll see 50GB thumb drives or memory
    > cards for retail at that price. You already can get 16 GB for under $10 at
    > best buy all the time


    Maybe. But it still means higher costs than optical media, no matter how
    you turn it, and doesn't change the fact that the game industry wants to
    get away from physical distribution.

    Benjamin
     
    Benjamin Gawert, Nov 30, 2009
    #13
  14. * YKhan:

    > I picked up a 16GB Class 6 (highest speed class) SDHC card for $20
    > including shipping on Ebay. I'm sure it cost whoever was selling it
    > much less for him to buy it.


    See my answer to GMAN for that. 50GB Bluray disks can be produced for
    way less than $1 *today*.

    > That's entirely possible, and that's the reason they'd want to get rid
    > of the optical drive. A small flash drive slot would be a much more
    > cost effective non-permanent storage medium than a disk drive.


    The flash drive slot indedd is cheaper than a BD drive, but at the end
    of the day the cheapest solution is no removable media at all.

    > Physical distribution isn't going away, just the optical disk physical
    > distribution. And you can't rely on the Internet to download your
    > games when you need them.


    Sorry, but you must be really naive if you think physical distribution
    is not going away in the long term, especially since the publishers more
    than once expressed that this is what they are aiming for. On the PC,
    there already is STEAM which in fact is very successful and does
    completely rely on the internet to download your games, and this for
    several years now (and often enough, the STEAM version means less hazzle
    than the version on DVD which requires online activation with limited
    activations and other intrusive copy protection schemes). Sony and MS
    are constantly expanding their online stores, and this for a reason.
    Digital distribution means that more profit goes to the publisher, the
    second hand market can be dried out (by locking game titles to a certain
    console), much better control over pricing (single source means no
    pricing competition), and cost savings because mass production of media
    is not necessary any more. Also, only digital distribution allows new
    licensing models like time-based licensing.

    Physical media might not disappear completely, but with the next
    consoles we very likely will see that digital distribution plays an
    equal role as physical distribution, if not more (Current consoles are
    used as test beds for the concept).

    You have to be very naive to not see the writing on the wall IMHO.

    Benjamin
     
    Benjamin Gawert, Nov 30, 2009
    #14
  15. parallax-scroll

    Yousuf Khan Guest

    Bill Cable wrote:
    > On Nov 27, 3:15 pm, Yousuf Khan <> wrote:
    >> You missed the other part of this thread that said otherwise.
    >>
    >> Yousuf Khan

    >
    > Based on what I Googled, one division of IBM is off the Cell... not
    > the whole of IBM.


    There's more here:

    Cell is no longer hpc material - The Inquirer
    "According to the IBM executive's crystal ball, Cell is now no longer
    the right platform on which to develop HPC computing and so IBM will be
    shifting its focus from Cell-based co-processing to OpenCL-based
    co-processing - AMD's GPU stuff, in not so many words. This means that
    while Cell served its purpose in proving parallel processing was the way
    to go, development costs of further Cell based products become pointless
    as GPGPU computing becomes more widespread. Considering AMD is one of
    IBM's closest research partners this hardly comes as a surprise."
    http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1563659/cell-hpc-material

    So it looks like IBM will be moving towards AMD's solutions for at least
    HPC stuff from now on. Other than HPC and Playstation stuff, what else
    is there left for Cell? It looks pretty dead to me.

    Yousuf Khan
     
    Yousuf Khan, Nov 30, 2009
    #15
  16. On Nov 25, 12:56 pm, Benjamin Gawert <> wrote:
    > * parallax-scroll:
    >
    > > The choice? The
    > > PowerVR Series 6 by Imagination Technologies that utilizes a
    > > technology known as "TBDR," which is "3-5 times better than a
    > > competitive level nVidia/ATI Graphics card." Evidently, Sega used TBDR
    > > to help power the old Sega Dreamcast and if you remember, that console
    > > was definitely ahead of its time in the visual department.

    >
    > Yes, at a time when the 3Dfx Voodoo2 was a top-of-the line 3D graphics
    > card for PCs. However, it is not 1998 any more, and while AMD and Nvidia
    > invested lots of ressources into advances in the performance and
    > capabilities of their GPUs, the PowerVR today is merely a low-power GPU
    > for handheld devices as their "grownup" versions never left the
    > prototype stage.
    >
    > Sony would be mad if they choosed PowerVR for the PS4.
    >
    > > But perhaps
    > > the most interesting part about all of this is that Sony will retain
    > > the Cell processor currently in all PS3s; this new piece of advanced
    > > technology from Imagination will work with the Cell.

    >
    > The PS4 is very unlikely to be Cell based as IBM as stopped all
    > development for this architecture. Cell is dead.


    Wow. I hadn't read that. So much for Blig Merk's constant yabbering
    about how great Cell is.

    On the other hand, isn't it still possible that they'd use some
    current variant of Cell to power their next console? There must have
    been developments to the processor since the launch of the PS3 3 years
    ago and it would allow them to not have to worry about forcing
    developers to learn yet another brand new architecture for the next
    generation...

    > Benjamin
     
    The alMIGHTY N, Nov 30, 2009
    #16
  17. On Nov 26, 3:48 pm, Yousuf Khan <> wrote:
    > Jim wrote:
    > > With IBM out x86+Larrabee looks more likely than PoweVR.  Intel can make an
    > > offer Sony can't refuse.

    >
    > Except that Larrabee isn't proven yet. PS4 can still go to a more
    > traditional regular PowerPC processor along with a traditional GPU,
    > making it more like the Xbox360.


    I'd love to read comments from the fanboys on BOTH sides of the fences
    on this one, haha...

    >         Yousuf Khan
     
    The alMIGHTY N, Nov 30, 2009
    #17
  18. On Nov 28, 1:46 pm, (GMAN) wrote:
    > In article <>, Benjamin Gawert <> wrote:
    > >* YKhan:

    >
    > >> Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days.
    > >> Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges,
    > >> flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB,
    > >> meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in
    > >> capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like
    > >> they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives.

    >
    > >A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB
    > >Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash
    > >as medium.

    >
    > >Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical
    > >distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper,
    > >but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are
    > >locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing
    > >models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible.

    >
    > >Benjamin

    >
    > Oh please, I picked up 6 32Gb SDHC cards off of ebay for $8 a piece.


    That's definitely not what those cards were going for when they first
    came out. You couldn't walk into any retail store and get such an item
    for anywhere near that price so that's got to be getting pretty close
    to the actual cost of manufacture at the time those particular cards
    were produced.

    It will cost Sony a LOT less than that, on the order of a dollar or
    even less per piece, to mass produce Blu-ray discs...

    > So in a few years, its very possible youll see 50GB thumb drives or memory
    > cards for retail at that price. You already can get 16 GB for under $10 at
    > best buy all the time
     
    The alMIGHTY N, Nov 30, 2009
    #18
  19. On Nov 28, 2:11 am, Benjamin Gawert <> wrote:
    > * YKhan:
    >
    > > Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days.
    > > Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges,
    > > flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB,
    > > meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in
    > > capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like
    > > they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives.

    >
    > A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB
    > Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash
    > as medium.
    >
    > Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical
    > distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper,
    > but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are
    > locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing
    > models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible.


    I'm quite certain there would be a huge backlash from consumers if
    they were to take this route. Many people bank on the ability to
    resell games once they've finished them.

    Further, the network bandwidth required to handle massive downloads of
    even games that only take up half a Blu-ray disc won't be here even in
    the next decade. The U.S. is by far the most important market so the
    video game industry will make sure that anything they choose to do
    will be viable in this territory.

    > Benjamin
     
    The alMIGHTY N, Nov 30, 2009
    #19
  20. On Nov 29, 7:56 pm, YKhan <> wrote:
    > On Nov 28, 2:11 am, Benjamin Gawert <> wrote:
    >
    > > A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB
    > > Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash
    > > as medium.

    >
    > I picked up a 16GB Class 6 (highest speed class) SDHC card for $20
    > including shipping on Ebay. I'm sure it cost whoever was selling it
    > much less for him to buy it.


    An equally likely scenario is that they purchased them earlier and
    were not able to turn them around and so settled for making very
    little to no profit just unloading them on eBay.

    > > Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical
    > > distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper,
    > > but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are
    > > locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing
    > > models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible.

    >
    > That's entirely possible, and that's the reason they'd want to get rid
    > of the optical drive. A small flash drive slot would be a much more
    > cost effective non-permanent storage medium than a disk drive.
    > Physical distribution isn't going away, just the optical disk physical
    > distribution. And you can't rely on the Internet to download your
    > games when you need them.


    Optical discs are not going away anytime soon. Maybe for the
    generation after next but we're definitely going to have some sort of
    optical medium for the coming generation. It's just not cost effective
    enough to use anything else right now.
     
    The alMIGHTY N, Nov 30, 2009
    #20
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