Quote marks and Question marks

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Conrad, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. Conrad

    Conrad Guest

    Hi,

    When I send e-mail file messages written in AppleWorks or Word -- they
    leave looking great. However, any quotation marks show up at the
    receiving end as question marks. If I include myself in the mailing --
    the messages comes back to me with question marks instead of quotation
    marks. I'm using an iBook G4 Mac with mac.com address.

    Can anybody suggest a solution?

    TIA,

    Conrad
    Camp Sherman, Oregon
    Conrad, Jun 28, 2006
    #1
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  2. Conrad

    Philo D Guest

    In article <>,
    Conrad <> wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > When I send e-mail file messages written in AppleWorks or Word -- they
    > leave looking great. However, any quotation marks show up at the
    > receiving end as question marks. If I include myself in the mailing --
    > the messages comes back to me with question marks instead of quotation
    > marks. I'm using an iBook G4 Mac with mac.com address.
    >
    > Can anybody suggest a solution?
    >


    Quotation marks as in ASCII " will be fine. But curly quotation marks
    (non-ASCII) depend on your character encoding. Whether they go
    through OK will depend on your mail program, and the recipient's
    mail program. If you really need curly quotes or other fancy
    formatting, you can send an actual Word document. But
    for normal email, simply avoid such affectations.
    Philo D, Jun 28, 2006
    #2
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  3. Conrad

    Davoud Guest

    Conrad wrote:

    > > When I send e-mail file messages written in AppleWorks or Word -- they
    > > leave looking great. However, any quotation marks show up at the
    > > receiving end as question marks. If I include myself in the mailing --
    > > the messages comes back to me with question marks instead of quotation
    > > marks. I'm using an iBook G4 Mac with mac.com address.
    > >
    > > Can anybody suggest a solution?


    Philo D:
    > Quotation marks as in ASCII " will be fine. But curly quotation marks
    > (non-ASCII) depend on your character encoding. Whether they go
    > through OK will depend on your mail program, and the recipient's
    > mail program. If you really need curly quotes or other fancy
    > formatting, you can send an actual Word document. But
    > for normal email, simply avoid such affectations.


    Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!

    That said, I rarely bother to amend this when I send e-mail. If I must
    have quotation marks, apostrophes, and other niceties such as the em
    dash ‹ I send the e-mail as html. Haven't had a respondant complain
    about that yet.

    Davoud

    * In longitude and latitude these are the minutes (of arc) sign ' and
    the seconds (of arc) sign " . 39° 04' 39"

    --
    usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
    Davoud, Jun 28, 2006
    #3
  4. In article <>,
    "Conrad" <> wrote:

    > When I send e-mail file messages written in AppleWorks or Word -- they
    > leave looking great. However, any quotation marks show up at the
    > receiving end as question marks. If I include myself in the mailing --
    > the messages comes back to me with question marks instead of quotation
    > marks. I'm using an iBook G4 Mac with mac.com address.


    Turn off smart quotes.

    --
    Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 28, 2006
    #4
  5. In article <280620060952330466%>, Davoud <>
    wrote:

    > Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    > the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!


    The inch sign and minute sign are the quotation mark and apostrophe,
    respectively.

    --
    Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 28, 2006
    #5
  6. Conrad

    Jacques S. Guest

    Davoud wrote:
    > Conrad wrote:
    >
    >>> When I send e-mail file messages written in AppleWorks or Word -- they
    >>> leave looking great. However, any quotation marks show up at the
    >>> receiving end as question marks. If I include myself in the mailing --
    >>> the messages comes back to me with question marks instead of quotation
    >>> marks. I'm using an iBook G4 Mac with mac.com address.
    >>>
    >>> Can anybody suggest a solution?

    >
    > Philo D:
    >> Quotation marks as in ASCII " will be fine. But curly quotation marks
    >> (non-ASCII) depend on your character encoding. Whether they go
    >> through OK will depend on your mail program, and the recipient's
    >> mail program. If you really need curly quotes or other fancy
    >> formatting, you can send an actual Word document. But
    >> for normal email, simply avoid such affectations.

    >
    > Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    > the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!
    >
    > That said, I rarely bother to amend this when I send e-mail. If I must
    > have quotation marks, apostrophes, and other niceties such as the em
    > dash ‹ I send the e-mail as html. Haven't had a respondant complain
    > about that yet.
    >
    > Davoud
    >
    > * In longitude and latitude these are the minutes (of arc) sign ' and
    > the seconds (of arc) sign " . 39° 04' 39"
    >


    Davoud -
    As you correctly point out, the " mark and the ' mark mean different
    things in different contexts; you mention two: first, when the time of
    day is indicated in a specific format, and, second, the conventional
    format for terrestrial positioning.
    There are, of course, other contexts: in mathematics, for example, the '
    mark means prime, etc.
    As others in the thread have pointed out, in another context--the
    context that is relevant to the op's question. where ordinary text
    written with the ASCII character set--they are punctuation marks, the
    double-quote and single-quote, respectively.

    --
    Jacques S.
    Jacques S., Jun 28, 2006
    #6
  7. Conrad

    Philo D Guest

    >
    > Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    > the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!


    You mean &quot; is not a quotation mark?
    http://www.csgnetwork.com/asciiset.html
    Philo D, Jun 28, 2006
    #7
  8. Conrad

    Jacques S. Guest

    Philo D wrote:
    >> Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    >> the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!

    >
    > You mean &quot; is not a quotation mark?


    That's right.
    Unless and until they are explicitly defined in a specific context to
    represent something else, those six characters are, an ampersand, four
    lower-case letters, and a semi-colon.

    --
    Jacques S.
    Jacques S., Jun 28, 2006
    #8
  9. Conrad

    Don Bruder Guest

    In article <>,
    "Conrad" <> wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > When I send e-mail file messages written in AppleWorks or Word -- they
    > leave looking great. However, any quotation marks show up at the
    > receiving end as question marks. If I include myself in the mailing --
    > the messages comes back to me with question marks instead of quotation
    > marks. I'm using an iBook G4 Mac with mac.com address.
    >
    > Can anybody suggest a solution?
    >
    > TIA,
    >
    > Conrad
    > Camp Sherman, Oregon
    >


    Turn off use of the (abysmally mis-named) "smart quoting" or
    "curly-quotes".

    Problem solved.

    --
    Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
    or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
    somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
    ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
    Don Bruder, Jun 28, 2006
    #9
  10. Conrad

    Wes Groleau Guest

    Philo D wrote:
    > Quotation marks as in ASCII " will be fine. But curly quotation marks
    > (non-ASCII) depend on your character encoding. Whether they go
    > through OK will depend on your mail program, and the recipient's
    > mail program. If you really need curly quotes or other fancy
    > formatting, you can send an actual Word document. But
    > for normal email, simply avoid such affectations.


    I use Mail.app for mail and Thunderbird for Usenet.

    I told both to never send HTML.

    I told Thunderbird to always use UTF-8

    Mail doesn't let me tell it how to encode.

    But, when I use accented characters, ellipses, Chinese, etc. most
    readers see what I intended. Of those that don't, if they send it back
    to me, I still see it in most cases. So it's only a few whose
    mail/newsreaders are so crippled as to alter the stream in passing.
    (Actually, there are also a few NNTP/SMTP servers that are so
    ill-mannered they remove the encoding spec headers and or tamper with
    the bits. But these are a small minority)

    If it's REALLY important that the person see a particular character,
    MS Word, PDF, HTML, etc are some of the many ways of overcoming the
    problem. But unless the stakes are high, I'm not going to put forth
    much effort to accommodate someone else's broken software.


    --
    Wes Groleau

    You're all individuals!
    Yes, we're all individuals!
    You're all different!
    Yes, we are all different!
    I'm not!

    ("Life of Brian")
    Wes Groleau, Jun 29, 2006
    #10
  11. Conrad

    Wes Groleau Guest

    Davoud wrote:
    > Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    > the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!


    I wouldn't call it an affectation, but unless the mail or news
    client tries to imitate Word's "smart quotes" it's certainly a
    waste of time.

    I think trying to imitate "curlies" in plain text with acute
    and grave is an affectation, especially since with most fonts,
    the result looks stupid.

    ( i.e., "this" vs ``this'' )

    --
    Wes Groleau
    ----
    The man who reads nothing at all is better educated
    than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.
    -- Thomas Jefferson
    Wes Groleau, Jun 29, 2006
    #11
  12. Conrad

    Wes Groleau Guest

    Philo D wrote:
    >> Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    >> the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!

    >
    > You mean &quot; is not a quotation mark?
    > http://www.csgnetwork.com/asciiset.html


    When your e-mail is plain text like a civilized person's, it isn't.

    --
    Wes Groleau

    He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
    -- Samuel Butler, 1612-1680
    Wes Groleau, Jun 29, 2006
    #12
  13. Conrad

    Wes Groleau Guest

    tacit wrote:
    > If you type an email message that contains characters which are not part
    > of standard ASCII, such as curly quotes or accented characters, those
    > characters are lost, .....


    Not if your e-mail client specifies the encoding method, like it should.

    Of course, nothing prevents a broken relay downstream from screwing
    things up......


    --
    Wes Groleau
    http://groleau.freeshell.org/teaching/
    Wes Groleau, Jun 29, 2006
    #13
  14. Conrad

    Wes Groleau Guest

    Wes Groleau wrote:
    > But, when I use accented characters, ellipses, Chinese, etc. most
    > readers see what I intended


    Even when the text is pasted in from Word or a web page that
    has curlies.

    --
    Wes Groleau
    Can we afford to be relevant?
    http://www.cetesol.org/stevick.html
    Wes Groleau, Jun 29, 2006
    #14
  15. Conrad

    Davoud Guest

    Philo D wrote:
    > > You mean &quot; is not a quotation mark?
    > > http://www.csgnetwork.com/asciiset.html


    Wes Groleau wrote:
    > When your e-mail is plain text like a civilized person's, it isn't.


    Sorry, but civilized people sometimes write with fonts other than
    Geneva or Verdana, and they may wish to see their text formatted
    properly, so they may sometimes use html e-mail. I'm a civilized person
    and I do that sometimes and I have yet to receive a complaint from a
    respondant.

    Davoud

    --
    usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
    Davoud, Jun 29, 2006
    #15
  16. Conrad

    Wes Groleau Guest

    Davoud wrote:
    > Sorry, but civilized people sometimes write with fonts other than
    > Geneva or Verdana, and they may wish to see their text formatted
    > properly, so they may sometimes use html e-mail. I'm a civilized person
    > and I do that sometimes and I have yet to receive a complaint from a
    > respondant.


    I don't complain when I get HTML, but I don't like it.

    I have NEVER received an e-mail in which anything important was lost
    converting it to plain text (cutting the size anywhere from 50% to
    1000% in the process).

    Is there any practical difference between the following?

    some words
    <FONT size=24>some words</FONT>
    some words (pretend those are in REALLY BIG LETTERS)

    Yes, there is: the first has no unnecessary crap
    to distract from the message.

    I don't complain because there are more important battles
    to fight. I suspect many people feel the same.
    (And usually the sender has no clue what HTML is.)

    --
    Wes Groleau

    You always have time for what you do first.
    Wes Groleau, Jun 29, 2006
    #16
  17. In article <>,
    "G.T." <> wrote:

    > >>Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign "
    > >>and the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!

    > >
    > >
    > > The inch sign and minute sign are the quotation mark and
    > > apostrophe, respectively.

    >
    > Huh?
    >
    > http://www.aeonix.com/comntypo.htm


    Yeah, for typography, that's correct, but for newsgroups and plain text
    email, that's not correct; those curly quotes are not part of plain
    ASCII, which is what newsgroups and plain text email use.

    --
    Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 29, 2006
    #17
  18. Conrad

    Davoud Guest

    Davoud wrote:
    > > Sorry, but civilized people sometimes write with fonts other than
    > > Geneva or Verdana, and they may wish to see their text formatted
    > > properly, so they may sometimes use html e-mail. I'm a civilized person
    > > and I do that sometimes and I have yet to receive a complaint from a
    > > respondant.


    Wes Groleau replied:
    > I don't complain when I get HTML, but I don't like it.


    OK, no HTML e-mail from me to you.

    > I have NEVER received an e-mail in which anything important was lost
    > converting it to plain text (cutting the size anywhere from 50% to
    > 1000% in the process).


    > Is there any practical difference between the following?
    >
    > some words
    > <FONT size=24>some words</FONT>
    > some words (pretend those are in REALLY BIG LETTERS)


    Hmmm. Firstly, yes, to my elderly friend who has failing eyesight there
    is a big difference. She can read the HTML, but not the plain text. I
    take that to mean that something important would be lost if the e-mail
    were sent in plain text. Othewise, on those /rare/ occasions when I
    send HTML e-mail I don't use it in that way -- for the purpose of
    writing in really big letters, that is.

    Secondly, recipients don't see the underlying HTML, just a nicely
    formatted letter.

    Thirdly, I have never added 1000% to the size of an e-mail by HTML
    encoding. 10%, maybe. So the e-mail takes 1.1sec to download on a
    broadband connection vice 1 sec. 11 sec vice 10 sec on dialup.

    > I don't complain because there are more important battles
    > to fight. I suspect many people feel the same.


    I certainly hope so. I find that trivial rules with "never" in them
    often don't work well for me; more important ones such as "Never stand
    in the path of a speeding train" seem to make more of an impression on
    me.

    > (And usually the sender has no clue what HTML is.)


    Can't comment on that, since it doesn't apply to me. Judging from the
    pleasing appearance of the few HTML e-mails that I receive, my
    respondants seem to have some notion of what they are doing. I'm quite
    certain that my elderly friend couldn't write HTML by hand to save her
    life, yet she manages to use it (from time to time) in an intelligent
    way.

    It comes down to the same old lesson: please do it your way, and please
    don't condemn me for doing it my way.

    Davoud

    --
    usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
    Davoud, Jun 29, 2006
    #18
  19. Conrad

    Davoud Guest

    Davoud wrote:
    > > > Using quotation marks and apostrophes rather than the inch sign " and
    > > > the minute sign ' * hardly represents an affectation!


    Wes Groleau:
    > > I wouldn't call it an affectation, but unless the mail or news
    > > client tries to imitate Word's "smart quotes" it's certainly a
    > > waste of time.


    > > I think trying to imitate "curlies" in plain text with acute
    > > and grave is an affectation, especially since with most fonts,
    > > the result looks stupid.
    > >
    > > ( i.e., "this" vs ``this'' )


    G.T.:
    > Absolutely agree. That looks absurd.


    But I've never done that, have I? In fact, I haven't see that for
    years, and I get around the 'net a bit.

    I don't understand why it is necessary to refer to quotation marks as
    curlies. Firstly, they do not "curl" in all type faces; sometimes they
    are merely slanted. Secondly, referring to these signs as quotation
    marks suffices to differentiate them from the symbol ", which we all
    use /in/ /place/ /of/ a quotation mark, but which /is/ /not/ a
    quotation mark.

    Davoud

    --
    usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
    Davoud, Jun 29, 2006
    #19
  20. In article <280620061500125608%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>,
    Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

    > > ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI.

    >
    > Good one! Consider it stolen!


    Ditto.

    --
    Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
    Michelle Steiner, Jun 29, 2006
    #20
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