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Re: Digitizer Pen or Stylus

Discussion in 'Tablet PC' started by Rainald Taesler, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. dee.cee.vee wrote:

    > Thinking about buying a new tablet. Haven't decided on what I
    > want, but I was wondering if there is any benefit to the digitizer
    > pen over the stylus.


    Technology-wise there's worlds between!!
    Touch-screens are rather dumb. They just recognize that that some place
    on the screen an event has occurred.
    Digitizers, however can make use of the finest movements of a pen on the
    screen.
    You may know what the professional designer products of Wacom can do.
    Most TabletPCs with a digitizer screen use Wacom technology.

    I've been using an iPAQ for years and I have been working with my
    HP/COMPAQ tc1100 TabletPC for 2 1/2 years now. The difference of pen
    input is tremendous.

    > Seems to me that it would be a pain because I
    > tend to get up for a cup of coffee and leave my stylus in the
    > kitchen or somewhere and come back empty handed... but at least I
    > can touch the screen or look around and find another stylus
    > somewhere ..


    This should really be no problem.
    As Beverly already said most TabletPCs have a "leash to tie the stylus
    to the machine.
    I am very fine example for what is called "absent minded professor". I
    tend to loose everything (pens, lighters etc. etc.). But in the 2 1/2
    years of using my tc1100 I did never loose my stylus.
    After a year or so of using it I decided to tie it to the computer with
    a string (long enough to work really comfortable). And so it's always
    where the computer is.
    Apart from that: for safety reasons immediately after buying the
    TabletPC I got a second pen on eBay*- just "in case". It's sitting in a
    pocket of my computer backpack and would always be available should I
    really loose or misplace the "main" pen.

    > I have a bazillion of them everywhere for just that
    > reason .. Of course ---- I have my favorite stylus, sterling silver
    > with an ivory tip that my jeweler made for me !!


    And you did not loose that? <g,d&rf>
    I'd love to have something like that <!g>.
    But even such a fine stylus should not influence your decision!

    There are really fine pens for a digitizer board produced by Cross:
    http://www.wacom.com/Tabletpc/accessories.cfm

    And there is not too much magic about the digitizer. It's just the
    magnetic tip.
    Couldn't you ask your jeweler to to convert the existing pen?

    All in all: Don't go for a touch-screen device.
    Go for the beef and get a really working tablet device.

    HTH
    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Nov 20, 2008
    #1
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  2. >> But in the 2 1/2 years of using my tc1100 I did never loose my
    stylus. <<
    >> And you did not loose that? <g,d&rf> <<


    One's wallet is a powerful motivator ;-)

    What I did was purchase a "replacement pack" of two additional styli for
    my Fuji and still have all three after a year and a half... fwiw, they
    digitizer styli work on the pocketpc's, just not the other way round.

    Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev], Nov 21, 2008
    #2
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  3. Rainald Taesler

    TomK Guest

    TomK, Nov 21, 2008
    #3
  4. To clarify, a "touch screen" responds to any pressure... i.e. a stylus
    pen, finger, chopstick, etc...

    Touch screens work great on any small screen device such as a pocketpc
    since, when using a small device, the stylus or finger is the only thing
    touching the screen at the one time.

    On the larger "tablet" screens, it is difficult to use a stylus without
    resting the heel of your hand on the screen itself, and, when you do so,
    the additional contact of that part of the hand also generates unwanted
    screen inputs.

    With an active digitizer, you can comfortably rest your hand or touch
    any other part of the screen and only the tip of the stylus will
    generate a recognized input.

    Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev], Nov 21, 2008
    #4
  5. TomK wrote:

    >> All in all: Don't go for a touch-screen device.
    >> Go for the beef and get a really working tablet device.

    >
    > Why settle for either/or? I was looking at an HP tx2525nr tablet
    > PC at Best Buy the other day. It does both touch screen and pen
    > input. Take a look...
    >
    >

    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...et pc&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1211587729489

    This is a touch-screen model.
    It has no digitizer.
    And there is no combination of two things.
    It's just a touch-screen.
    And in fact it really is either/or.

    Tablets with a touch-screen always have a pen. One can draw and write.
    It's just as using a stylus an a PDA. Did you ever try to really *write*
    on a PDA?
    It makes a *huge* difference if the pen is just used with a touch-screen
    or a digitizer. Recognition of what is "inked" works totally different
    and the digitizer works far superior than a touch-screen.
    For very basic drawing and writing a touch-screen may be sufficient. But
    the real TabletPC functionality requires a digitizer.

    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Nov 22, 2008
    #5
  6. >> When you are writing on a tablet with digitizer Pen,-does the input
    panel come up and you write on it? or can you write anywhere? <<

    No simple answer... and varies with programs.

    For example, Windows Journal comes with the Tablet os and it emulates
    paper notepads so you can write just like it was paper. Other
    applications such as OneNote offer the same and MS Office has Tablet
    extensions (which I don't use and can't comment on)

    There is a TIP input panel (do I remember your sig on the pocketpc
    forums?) which is similar to the pocketpc inputs... select handwriting,
    block letters, keyboard and number pad which will then input into the
    current programs insert cursor and in _most_ programs, tapping the input
    cursor will bring up a TIP icon and tapping that opens the tip.

    Otherwise, the pen functions just like a mouse.

    >> also. Once a while back I had some tablet Software where I could

    write something in notepad form and email it - in my own handwriting.
    Or draw a picture and click "email." Did I dream this? Or is it real."
    I haven't been able to find it again, I thought it was A Microsoft
    program. <<

    Yes... think it's in OneNote, might even be in Journal (again, have
    never used it)

    fwiw, from my viewpoint, makes sense if you need to send sketches, but,
    personally, I feel it tends to generate a negative reaction when someone
    sends handwriting instead of text... more than once ;-)

    Hope this Helps
    Beverly Howard
     
    Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev], Nov 24, 2008
    #6
  7. Rainald Taesler

    Sven Guest

    And in fact the 2000 series does both. It has a touch screen that responds
    to my PPC stylii, my finger, chopsticks etc, but also comes with an active
    digitizer, which lets you move the cursor around while hovering over the
    screen a bit, no contact, and responds to pressure differences, which might
    matter to me if I had any artistic talent. Plus responding to the buttons on
    the stylus, for right clicks or whatever, which a touch screen would not do.

    "Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]" <BevNoSpamBevHoward.com> wrote in
    message news:uH8f$...
    > To clarify, a "touch screen" responds to any pressure... i.e. a stylus
    > pen, finger, chopstick, etc...
    >
    > Touch screens work great on any small screen device such as a pocketpc
    > since, when using a small device, the stylus or finger is the only thing
    > touching the screen at the one time.
    >
    > On the larger "tablet" screens, it is difficult to use a stylus without
    > resting the heel of your hand on the screen itself, and, when you do so,
    > the additional contact of that part of the hand also generates unwanted
    > screen inputs.
    >
    > With an active digitizer, you can comfortably rest your hand or touch any
    > other part of the screen and only the tip of the stylus will generate a
    > recognized input.
    >
    > Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Sven, Nov 27, 2008
    #7
  8. Rainald Taesler

    Sven Guest

    "Rainald Taesler" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > TomK wrote:
    >
    >>> All in all: Don't go for a touch-screen device.
    >>> Go for the beef and get a really working tablet device.

    >>
    >> Why settle for either/or? I was looking at an HP tx2525nr tablet
    >> PC at Best Buy the other day. It does both touch screen and pen
    >> input. Take a look...
    >>
    >>

    > http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...et pc&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1211587729489
    >
    > This is a touch-screen model.
    > It has no digitizer.
    > And there is no combination of two things.
    > It's just a touch-screen.
    > And in fact it really is either/or.


    No, it is both, I can use the stylus that came with it, over the screen and
    the cursor follows it without touching the screen. I can use buttons on the
    stylus to affect different actions, like right click. Those are marks of an
    active digitizer. I can also poke things with my finger, like in the MCE
    interface, and have it respond..touch screen.
    The 2000 series is both touch and digitizer. The touch is not super
    sensitive, so I have not had the issue of it reacting to the heel of my hand
    when writing, but it is a touch sensitive screen.
     
    Sven, Nov 27, 2008
    #8
  9. Rainald Taesler

    Sven Guest

    Interesting observation Bev. You and I are both old enough to remember when
    a handwritten note was much proffered to a typed one. ;)

    "Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]" <BevNoSpamBevHoward.com> wrote in
    message news:...
    >
    > fwiw, from my viewpoint, makes sense if you need to send sketches, but,
    > personally, I feel it tends to generate a negative reaction when someone
    > sends handwriting instead of text... more than once ;-)
    >
    > Hope this Helps
    > Beverly Howard
    >
     
    Sven, Nov 27, 2008
    #9
  10. >> CrapUSA <<

    They are gone... online only and really it's tigerdirect.

    That said, before you jump, would try to get some "hands on" time with
    the units you are considering.

    >> I think I want to get a larger one this time. Something with DVD <<


    hmmm... tread carefully... I made the same choice with the T4215 but,
    after my beloved Vaio Picturebook, it's proving to be "too much"
    hardware to lug around in comparison. If I traveled regularly, the dvd
    might be worth the weight and size, but think I would be happier with an
    8.5" screen and a docking station.

    Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev], Nov 27, 2008
    #10
  11. What do you mean by "2000 series"?
    Which manufacturer?

    Rainald

    Sven schrieb:

    > And in fact the 2000 series does both. It has a touch screen that
    > responds to my PPC stylii, my finger, chopsticks etc, but also
    > comes with an active digitizer, which lets you move the cursor
    > around while hovering over the screen a bit, no contact, and
    > responds to pressure differences, which might matter to me if I had
    > any artistic talent. Plus responding to the buttons on the stylus,
    > for right clicks or whatever, which a touch screen would not do.
    >
    >> To clarify, a "touch screen" responds to any pressure... i.e. a
    >> stylus pen, finger, chopstick, etc...
    >>
    >> Touch screens work great on any small screen device such as a
    >> pocketpc since, when using a small device, the stylus or finger is
    >> the only thing touching the screen at the one time.
    >>
    >> On the larger "tablet" screens, it is difficult to use a stylus
    >> without resting the heel of your hand on the screen itself, and,
    >> when you do so, the additional contact of that part of the hand
    >> also generates unwanted screen inputs.
    >>
    >> With an active digitizer, you can comfortably rest your hand or
    >> touch any other part of the screen and only the tip of the stylus
    >> will generate a recognized input.
    >>
    >> Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Rainald Taesler, Nov 28, 2008
    #11
  12. Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev] wrote:

    > fwiw, from my viewpoint, makes sense if you need to send sketches,
    > but, personally, I feel it tends to generate a negative reaction
    > when someone sends handwriting instead of text... more than once ;-)


    Different experience on my side.
    I used to send replies to mail with Outlook 2003, handwritten and
    commenting in the text.

    Almost everyone saw this as the more *personal* way and felt to have
    been given more attention.
    Unfortunately it does not really work it should anymore in Outlook 2007
    :-( :-( and I have not yet got Josh Einstein's TEO.

    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Nov 28, 2008
    #12
  13. Sven wrote:

    >>>> All in all: Don't go for a touch-screen device.
    >>>> Go for the beef and get a really working tablet device.
    >>>
    >>> Why settle for either/or? I was looking at an HP tx2525nr tablet
    >>> PC at Best Buy the other day. It does both touch screen and pen
    >>> input. Take a look...
    >>>
    >>>

    >>

    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...et pc&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1211587729489
    >>
    >> This is a touch-screen model.
    >> It has no digitizer.
    >> And there is no combination of two things.
    >> It's just a touch-screen.
    >> And in fact it really is either/or.

    >
    > No, it is both, I can use the stylus that came with it, over the
    > screen and the cursor follows it without touching the screen. I can
    > use buttons on the stylus to affect different actions, like right
    > click. Those are marks of an active digitizer. I can also poke
    > things with my finger, like in the MCE interface, and have it
    > respond..touch screen.
    > The 2000 series is both touch and digitizer. The touch is not super
    > sensitive, so I have not had the issue of it reacting to the heel
    > of my hand when writing, but it is a touch sensitive screen.


    Thanks for letting me know.
    The specs are quite bad.
    I'll check deeper into it.

    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Nov 28, 2008
    #13
  14. Rainald Taesler

    Sven Guest

    The HPs HP tx2525 and the like. I noticed when I was looking, every big box
    store seemed to have their own particular build with just a slightly
    different number. Some with 64B OS, some with more or less memory, drive
    space, etc, I actually have one of the older TX1327s that had only the touch
    screen, and the difference is remarkable, though physically the devices look
    virtually identical. I have a gut feel that the 64B OS makes a lot of
    difference in how Vista runs. I have noticed that on a couple of new
    machines, though I have not yet taken a box loaded with 32B and rebuilt it
    with 64 to see if I could see a difference.

    "Rainald Taesler" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > What do you mean by "2000 series"?
    > Which manufacturer?
    >
    > Rainald
    >
    > Sven schrieb:
    >
    >> And in fact the 2000 series does both. It has a touch screen that
    >> responds to my PPC stylii, my finger, chopsticks etc, but also
    >> comes with an active digitizer, which lets you move the cursor
    >> around while hovering over the screen a bit, no contact, and
    >> responds to pressure differences, which might matter to me if I had
    >> any artistic talent. Plus responding to the buttons on the stylus,
    >> for right clicks or whatever, which a touch screen would not do.
    >>
    >>> To clarify, a "touch screen" responds to any pressure... i.e. a
    >>> stylus pen, finger, chopstick, etc...
    >>>
    >>> Touch screens work great on any small screen device such as a
    >>> pocketpc since, when using a small device, the stylus or finger is
    >>> the only thing touching the screen at the one time.
    >>>
    >>> On the larger "tablet" screens, it is difficult to use a stylus
    >>> without resting the heel of your hand on the screen itself, and,
    >>> when you do so, the additional contact of that part of the hand
    >>> also generates unwanted screen inputs.
    >>>
    >>> With an active digitizer, you can comfortably rest your hand or
    >>> touch any other part of the screen and only the tip of the stylus
    >>> will generate a recognized input.
    >>>
    >>> Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Sven, Nov 29, 2008
    #14
  15. Rainald Taesler

    Sven Guest

    You need to go play with one. Mine is actually a tx2525nr, AMD 2GHz, 3G Ram,
    machine and it is very responsive. This is the second machine I have that is
    using the 64B OS, and they run circles around machines I have running 32B
    Vista. My desktop is a Quad processor, 2.4GHz box with 4G of RAM, but the
    32B OS (yea I know what that does to my 4G of RAM), but still the little
    lappy is much more responsive. Go play with one. Not sure where you are, but
    around here, BestBuy, Circuit City and OfficeDepot had them sitting out.
    Make them find you a stylus, or bring your own, (yes, digital).

    "Rainald Taesler" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Sven wrote:
    >
    >>>>> All in all: Don't go for a touch-screen device.
    >>>>> Go for the beef and get a really working tablet device.
    >>>>
    >>>> Why settle for either/or? I was looking at an HP tx2525nr tablet
    >>>> PC at Best Buy the other day. It does both touch screen and pen
    >>>> input. Take a look...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>

    > http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...et pc&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1211587729489
    >>>
    >>> This is a touch-screen model.
    >>> It has no digitizer.
    >>> And there is no combination of two things.
    >>> It's just a touch-screen.
    >>> And in fact it really is either/or.

    >>
    >> No, it is both, I can use the stylus that came with it, over the
    >> screen and the cursor follows it without touching the screen. I can
    >> use buttons on the stylus to affect different actions, like right
    >> click. Those are marks of an active digitizer. I can also poke
    >> things with my finger, like in the MCE interface, and have it
    >> respond..touch screen.
    >> The 2000 series is both touch and digitizer. The touch is not super
    >> sensitive, so I have not had the issue of it reacting to the heel
    >> of my hand when writing, but it is a touch sensitive screen.

    >
    > Thanks for letting me know.
    > The specs are quite bad.
    > I'll check deeper into it.
    >
    > Rainald
    >
     
    Sven, Nov 29, 2008
    #15
  16. Sven wrote:
    >> What do you mean by "2000 series"?
    >> Which manufacturer?

    >
    > The HPs HP tx2525 and the like.


    Thanks for clarifying!

    > I noticed when I was looking, every
    > big box store seemed to have their own particular build with just a
    > slightly different number. Some with 64B OS, some with more or less
    > memory, drive space, etc, I actually have one of the older TX1327s
    > that had only the touch screen, and the difference is remarkable,
    > though physically the devices look virtually identical.


    Yes, for sure. A device with a digitizer work ways better.
    That's what we had discussed before.
    It was my fault not see that the HP 2xxx models would have both.
    But the presence of a touch-screen feature may be a disadvantage too as
    dee.cee.vee thread "Digitizer problems" shows.

    > I have a
    > gut feel that the 64B OS makes a lot of difference in how Vista
    > runs. I have noticed that on a couple of new machines, though I
    > have not yet taken a box loaded with 32B and rebuilt it with 64 to
    > see if I could see a difference.


    Do you really think that Vista-64 would bring any advantages as far as
    the functionality of the digitizer and ink recognition is concerned?
    Any sources for that?

    So far my opinion - from carefully studying all of what is posted in the
    German Vista-newsgroups - is that the 64-bit versions of Vista are not
    really useful and one would better go with 32-bit unless one had some
    software requiring 64-bit.
    There are number of drawbacks, f.e. no printer for OneNote (which is one
    of the true must-have things on a TabletPC).

    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Dec 8, 2008
    #16
  17. Sven wrote:
    >> Thanks for letting me know.
    >> The specs are quite bad.
    >> I'll check deeper into it.

    >
    > You need to go play with one. Mine is actually a tx2525nr, AMD
    > 2GHz, 3G Ram, machine and it is very responsive. This is the second
    > machine I have that is using the 64B OS, and they run circles
    > around machines I have running 32B Vista. My desktop is a Quad
    > processor, 2.4GHz box with 4G of RAM, but the 32B OS (yea I know
    > what that does to my 4G of RAM), but still the little lappy is much
    > more responsive.


    Sounds really good.

    > Go play with one. Not sure where you are, but
    > around here, BestBuy, Circuit City and OfficeDepot had them sitting
    > out. Make them find you a stylus, or bring your own, (yes,
    > digital).


    I'd love to play with it.
    But TabletPC are a true niche product and I could not yet a place where
    a HP TabletPC might be available for testing :-( :-(

    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Dec 8, 2008
    #17
  18. Rainald Taesler

    Sven Guest

    Well, don't know how impatient you are, or if you are considering Summit
    next year, but I expect to be there and likely will bring that laptop.
    Probably it will stay in the hotel room, but it will be there. I expect
    there will be a number there that could be 'played with'.

    "Rainald Taesler" <> wrote in message
    news:OWdzB$...
    > Sven wrote:
    >>> Thanks for letting me know.
    >>> The specs are quite bad.
    >>> I'll check deeper into it.

    >>
    >> You need to go play with one. Mine is actually a tx2525nr, AMD
    >> 2GHz, 3G Ram, machine and it is very responsive. This is the second
    >> machine I have that is using the 64B OS, and they run circles
    >> around machines I have running 32B Vista. My desktop is a Quad
    >> processor, 2.4GHz box with 4G of RAM, but the 32B OS (yea I know
    >> what that does to my 4G of RAM), but still the little lappy is much
    >> more responsive.

    >
    > Sounds really good.
    >
    >> Go play with one. Not sure where you are, but
    >> around here, BestBuy, Circuit City and OfficeDepot had them sitting
    >> out. Make them find you a stylus, or bring your own, (yes,
    >> digital).

    >
    > I'd love to play with it.
    > But TabletPC are a true niche product and I could not yet a place where
    > a HP TabletPC might be available for testing :-( :-(
    >
    > Rainald
    >
    >
     
    Sven, Dec 9, 2008
    #18
  19. Sven schrieb:

    > Well, don't know how impatient you are, or if you are considering
    > Summit next year, but I expect to be there and likely will bring
    > that laptop. Probably it will stay in the hotel room, but it will
    > be there. I expect there will be a number there that could be
    > 'played with'.


    What's "Summit"??

    Rainald
     
    Rainald Taesler, Dec 11, 2008
    #19
  20. >> What's "Summit"?? <<

    Think Sven thought you were a Microsoft MVP (from your posts here, no doubt)

    MS hosts a yearly "Summit" conference for Microsoft MVPs where the
    number of tablets in use are increasing.

    Personally, I travel light... The guys using tablets and laptops need a
    place to sit... the PocketPC users can work on their feet and lug many
    fewer pounds for that week ;-)

    Beverly Howard [Microsoft MVP-Mobile Devices]
     
    Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev], Dec 11, 2008
    #20
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