Re: [OT?] GPS

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Wes Groleau, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Wes Groleau

    Wes Groleau Guest

    On 11-30-2011 16:57, John Varela wrote:
    > It always wants to put me on an expressway, which in this area
    > usually means the Washington Beltway, so I often override it.


    That's one problem with most of them: Some algorithm decides
    the "best" route, and if you don't like that route, you
    might as well turn the thing off.

    --
    Wes Groleau

    German Teachers
    http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW?itemid=81
     
    Wes Groleau, Dec 1, 2011
    #1
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  2. Wes Groleau

    John Varela Guest

    On Thu, 1 Dec 2011 04:43:43 UTC, Wes Groleau
    <> wrote:

    > On 11-30-2011 16:57, John Varela wrote:
    > > It always wants to put me on an expressway, which in this area
    > > usually means the Washington Beltway, so I often override it.

    >
    > That's one problem with most of them: Some algorithm decides
    > the "best" route, and if you don't like that route, you
    > might as well turn the thing off.


    You can set a preference for either the fastest route or the
    shortest route. Neither is optimum.

    --
    John Varela
     
    John Varela, Dec 2, 2011
    #2
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  3. Wes Groleau

    Davoud Guest

    John Varela:
    > > > It always wants to put me on an expressway, which in this area
    > > > usually means the Washington Beltway, so I often override it.


    Wes Groleau:
    > > That's one problem with most of them: Some algorithm decides
    > > the "best" route, and if you don't like that route, you
    > > might as well turn the thing off.


    John Varela:
    > You can set a preference for either the fastest route or the
    > shortest route. Neither is optimum.


    You're both talking about situations in which you already know the
    optimum route. That's not the purpose of the automotive GPS. Automotive
    GPS's are for people who have to reach destinations in unfamiliar
    territory. Mine do an outstanding job of that.

    Move your home to that unfamiliar territory and get to know the area
    and you won't be relying on your GPS.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Dec 2, 2011
    #3
  4. Wes Groleau

    John Varela Guest

    On Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:39:31 UTC, Davoud <> wrote:

    > John Varela:
    > > > > It always wants to put me on an expressway, which in this area
    > > > > usually means the Washington Beltway, so I often override it.

    >
    > Wes Groleau:
    > > > That's one problem with most of them: Some algorithm decides
    > > > the "best" route, and if you don't like that route, you
    > > > might as well turn the thing off.

    >
    > John Varela:
    > > You can set a preference for either the fastest route or the
    > > shortest route. Neither is optimum.

    >
    > You're both talking about situations in which you already know the
    > optimum route. That's not the purpose of the automotive GPS. Automotive
    > GPS's are for people who have to reach destinations in unfamiliar
    > territory. Mine do an outstanding job of that.
    >
    > Move your home to that unfamiliar territory and get to know the area
    > and you won't be relying on your GPS.


    Those who live in the Mid-Atlantic states are familiar with the toll
    booths on I95 in Delaware. One time we were headed to South Jersey
    from Virginia, a route with which I am very familiar, and there was
    a backup at the toll booths. I tried dropping off of the interstate
    and asking the Garmin to take us to South Jersey by the shortest
    route. We soon found ourselves driving down narrow country roads,
    making multiple changes, headed in a generally eastward direction.
    By the time we reached US13 I had realized that Garmin was taking us
    to the Lewes-Cape May ferry -- without, of course, regard for the
    ferry schedule. At that point I abandoned the GPS and headed up US
    13 to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

    --
    John Varela
     
    John Varela, Dec 2, 2011
    #4
  5. Wes Groleau

    nospam Guest

    In article <51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-x6c0SUkm8hbB@localhost>, John Varela
    <> wrote:

    > > You're both talking about situations in which you already know the
    > > optimum route. That's not the purpose of the automotive GPS. Automotive
    > > GPS's are for people who have to reach destinations in unfamiliar
    > > territory. Mine do an outstanding job of that.
    > >
    > > Move your home to that unfamiliar territory and get to know the area
    > > and you won't be relying on your GPS.

    >
    > Those who live in the Mid-Atlantic states are familiar with the toll
    > booths on I95 in Delaware. One time we were headed to South Jersey
    > from Virginia, a route with which I am very familiar, and there was
    > a backup at the toll booths. I tried dropping off of the interstate
    > and asking the Garmin to take us to South Jersey by the shortest
    > route. We soon found ourselves driving down narrow country roads,
    > making multiple changes, headed in a generally eastward direction.
    > By the time we reached US13 I had realized that Garmin was taking us
    > to the Lewes-Cape May ferry -- without, of course, regard for the
    > ferry schedule. At that point I abandoned the GPS and headed up US
    > 13 to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.


    you can set it to ignore ferries, toll roads, etc.

    i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.

    whenever i us a gps in familiar areas, it often comes up with less than
    optimal routings. when i'm in an unfamiliar area, i know it probably
    does the same, i just don't know what a better route would be.
     
    nospam, Dec 3, 2011
    #5
  6. Wes Groleau

    Wes Groleau Guest

    On 12-03-2011 11:09, nospam wrote:
    > i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    > side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    > up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.


    I once accidentally got off the highway, and the GPS apparently
    "assumed" that I did it on purpose. Instead of "rerouting" a
    U-turn back onto the highway, it asked me to do something similar
    to what you described.

    --
    Wes Groleau

    Pat's Polemics
    http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett
     
    Wes Groleau, Dec 3, 2011
    #6
  7. Wes Groleau

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2011-12-03 11:09 , nospam wrote:
    > In article<51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-x6c0SUkm8hbB@localhost>, John Varela
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>> You're both talking about situations in which you already know the
    >>> optimum route. That's not the purpose of the automotive GPS. Automotive
    >>> GPS's are for people who have to reach destinations in unfamiliar
    >>> territory. Mine do an outstanding job of that.
    >>>
    >>> Move your home to that unfamiliar territory and get to know the area
    >>> and you won't be relying on your GPS.

    >>
    >> Those who live in the Mid-Atlantic states are familiar with the toll
    >> booths on I95 in Delaware. One time we were headed to South Jersey
    >> from Virginia, a route with which I am very familiar, and there was
    >> a backup at the toll booths. I tried dropping off of the interstate
    >> and asking the Garmin to take us to South Jersey by the shortest
    >> route. We soon found ourselves driving down narrow country roads,
    >> making multiple changes, headed in a generally eastward direction.
    >> By the time we reached US13 I had realized that Garmin was taking us
    >> to the Lewes-Cape May ferry -- without, of course, regard for the
    >> ferry schedule. At that point I abandoned the GPS and headed up US
    >> 13 to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

    >
    > you can set it to ignore ferries, toll roads, etc.
    >
    > i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    > side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    > up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.


    Similar - TomTom - has done that a few times to me. In one case I
    followed it as I didn't know the area and swore at it continuously
    afterwards.

    > whenever i us a gps in familiar areas, it often comes up with less than
    > optimal routings. when i'm in an unfamiliar area, i know it probably
    > does the same, i just don't know what a better route would be.


    When traveling on vacation I use a laptop with GPS (MS Streets and
    Trips). It gives me a large top down view of the geography (including
    terrain). Much better for planning than any "auto GPS" but too
    dangerous to operate while driving.

    I now use 5 GPS' for leisure travel:

    -laptop with GPS for planning and logging travel / operated by SO on the
    road.

    -TomTom for navigating on the road (with the plan from the laptop).

    -etrex for hiking - GPS+WAAS+GLONASS/Compass/baro-alt. Holds topo maps.
    Pretty good battery performance. But it can't it log a lot of track data.

    -photo tracker for logging the trip and esp. geo-tagging photos after
    the trip (has enough memory for a 2 week trip). Not great battery
    performance,

    -iphone for locating restaurants, banks and the like.

    I also lug around 4 battery chargers (2 stt for cameras, 1 for general
    batteries, 1 for iPhone) and a 500W inverter - that's enough to charge
    batteries and run the laptop while driving.

    --
    "I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
     
    Alan Browne, Dec 3, 2011
    #7
  8. On 12/3/11 PDT 8:09 AM, nospam wrote:
    >
    > you can set it to ignore ferries, toll roads, etc.
    >
    > i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    > side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    > up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.


    You were lucky! That was when there was a sniper hitting every tenth car....

    Did the lady (or gent) actually use the words "get off the highway"- or
    what did it say? Does your unit do traffic routing?
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 3, 2011
    #8
  9. Wes Groleau

    Paul Sture Guest

    On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 08:09:39 -0800, nospam wrote:

    > you can set it to ignore ferries, toll roads, etc.
    >
    > i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    > side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    > up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.
    >
    > whenever i us a gps in familiar areas, it often comes up with less than
    > optimal routings. when i'm in an unfamiliar area, i know it probably
    > does the same, i just don't know what a better route would be.


    In the earlier days of GPS systems, there were plenty of stories of large
    trucks being directed up small country roads and getting stuck.

    I haven't seen many of those stores recently, so I assume the databases
    have got better.



    --
    Paul Sture
     
    Paul Sture, Dec 3, 2011
    #9
  10. Wes Groleau

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2011-12-03 15:24 , Paul Sture wrote:
    > On Sat, 03 Dec 2011 08:09:39 -0800, nospam wrote:
    >
    >> you can set it to ignore ferries, toll roads, etc.
    >>
    >> i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    >> side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    >> up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.
    >>
    >> whenever i us a gps in familiar areas, it often comes up with less than
    >> optimal routings. when i'm in an unfamiliar area, i know it probably
    >> does the same, i just don't know what a better route would be.

    >
    > In the earlier days of GPS systems, there were plenty of stories of large
    > trucks being directed up small country roads and getting stuck.
    >
    > I haven't seen many of those stores recently, so I assume the databases
    > have got better.


    To my recollection it was more about trucks ending up in narrow alleys
    in which they couldn't maneuver or before bridges they could not get under.

    There are GPS devices that are tuned to truckers needs - they draw the
    data from the same atlases that truckers use (designed with the needs
    and limitations of truckers).

    --
    "I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
     
    Alan Browne, Dec 3, 2011
    #10
  11. Wes Groleau

    JF Mezei Guest

    Paul Sture wrote:

    > In the earlier days of GPS systems, there were plenty of stories of large
    > trucks being directed up small country roads and getting stuck.


    A couple of years ago, I was cycling a small rural farming country road,
    part of which was unpaved. There was a paved faster road a little to the
    north.

    This is the type of road where you never see any traffic. But that time,
    it was a lot of traffic, including motorhomes with distant licence plates.

    Turns out that the highway was closed due to accident. People punched in
    their GPS to find shortest alternate route. That partly unpaved road
    ended up being shorter, but must slower, because they would have had to
    travel maybe 200m to the north to catch the much faster paved road.

    In fact, had they gone south instead of north of the highway, they would
    have gotten on an even shorter detour that would have brought them to
    the ontario border and easy reconnect with the highway.

    A mapping GPS can only be as good as its maps and people need to learn
    via such experiences that GPS maps are not perfect.
     
    JF Mezei, Dec 3, 2011
    #11
  12. Wes Groleau

    nospam Guest

    In article <jbdlq5$52b$>, John McWilliams
    <> wrote:

    > > i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    > > side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    > > up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.

    >
    > You were lucky! That was when there was a sniper hitting every tenth car....


    oh! was that it? these gps devices need to have a built-in police radio
    to reroute around crime scenes!

    > Did the lady (or gent) actually use the words "get off the highway"- or
    > what did it say?


    it beeps and has on-screen graphics. i hate gps devices that talk. the
    last thing i need is another voice to nag me on how to drive. :)

    > Does your unit do traffic routing?


    no it doesn't and there wasn't any traffic anyway. this was on a rural
    highway and my intended destination was 100 miles or so ahead, well
    past where it wanted me to exit and later rejoin. there was no reason
    to exit anywhere near there. it was purely arbitrary and was obviously
    a bug.

    the bizarre thing is it was really insistent. once it realized i was
    not going to do what it wanted me to do, it told me to take the next
    exit, make a u-turn, backtrack and make another u-turn and continue.
    needless to say, i ignored that too.
     
    nospam, Dec 3, 2011
    #12
  13. Wes Groleau

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Paul Sture <>
    wrote:

    > In the earlier days of GPS systems, there were plenty of stories of large
    > trucks being directed up small country roads and getting stuck.
    >
    > I haven't seen many of those stores recently, so I assume the databases
    > have got better.


    they're better but they still have mistakes. plus, people can also be
    stupid about blindly following it, such as taking mountain roads in the
    winter.
     
    nospam, Dec 3, 2011
    #13
  14. Wes Groleau

    Davoud Guest

    John Varela:
    > Those who live in the Mid-Atlantic states are familiar with the toll
    > booths on I95 in Delaware.


    That would be me. 12 Mi. west of Annapolis, MD. I-97 to the Harbor
    Tunnel, or sometimes I-695 via Key Bridge to break the monotony. Your
    mention of Delaware toll booths has caused my hands to shake
    uncontrollably and I am sitting slack-jawed and drooling. I do not
    usually sit slack-jawed and drool.

    > One time we were headed to South Jersey
    > from Virginia, a route with which I am very familiar, and there was
    > a backup at the toll booths. I tried dropping off of the interstate
    > and asking the Garmin to take us to South Jersey by the shortest
    > route.


    > We soon found ourselves driving down narrow country roads,
    > making multiple changes, headed in a generally eastward direction.
    > By the time we reached US13 I had realized that Garmin was taking us
    > to the Lewes-Cape May ferry -- without, of course, regard for the
    > ferry schedule. At that point I abandoned the GPS and headed up US
    > 13 to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.


    Yes, it seems we all have to learn the hard way at some point. As a
    practical matter you cannot get to South Jersey--or anywhere north or
    east of the Maryland-Delaware border‹from points south without using
    I-95 and passing through the Delaware tool booths. That's like trying
    to beat death and taxes. I have heard, however, that construction on
    the tool booths has been completed. Avoid beach weekends. Not with an
    alternate route, because (as a practical matter) there isn't one, but
    by staying home or by going on Thursday and returning home on Monday.

    I recall heading to an astronomy conference in Suffern, NY, two years
    ago. I've been going there for years and I know the way. But I thought
    I could outsmart Google and my GPS by manually picking a better route.
    I'm not one of those guys who won't ask for directions. When the 4-lane
    limited access highway I was driving had--without me exiting--turned
    into a 1-1/2 lane country road I stopped and asked for directions. I
    had stopped at a Latin bodega where no one knew sufficient English to
    help. I'm competent to ask and comprehend only simple instructions in
    Spanish. A delivery van came along and I asked the driver if I this was
    the road to 287 north. "Yes," he said, "this will take you to 287
    north. Where are you going?" "Suffern, NY." "Ah. Did you want to get
    there today?" He had me follow a circuitous but correct road that led
    to a road that paralleled I-95 north for some distance before joining
    I-287N just one exit from where I would have joined it from I-95 1-1/2
    hours earlier if I hadn't been so clever. Don't argue with I-95,
    especially in Delaware and the Jersey Turnpike. Resistance is futile.

    My Toyota GPS's, however, offer me the option of avoiding ferries. Of
    course, with your destination in South Jersey that might have led you
    to a ford. Sub-optimal.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Dec 3, 2011
    #14
  15. Wes Groleau

    Davoud Guest

    Paul Sture:

    > To my recollection it was more about trucks ending up in narrow alleys
    > in which they couldn't maneuver or before bridges they could not get under.
    >
    > There are GPS devices that are tuned to truckers needs - they draw the
    > data from the same atlases that truckers use (designed with the needs
    > and limitations of truckers).


    Those are urban legends. Before GPS, and now in addition to GPS,
    truckers rely on Truck atlases that show truck routes--including many
    2-lane secondary roads that are suitable for large trucks and that may
    be shorter and faster than Interstates in some cases. Except as
    necessary for local delivery, large trucks will not use roads that are
    not marked as truck routes in the atlas.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
     
    Davoud, Dec 3, 2011
    #15
  16. Wes Groleau

    John Varela Guest

    On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:09:39 UTC, nospam <>
    wrote:

    >
    > In article <51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-x6c0SUkm8hbB@localhost>, John Varela
    > <> wrote:


    > > Those who live in the Mid-Atlantic states are familiar with the toll
    > > booths on I95 in Delaware. One time we were headed to South Jersey
    > > from Virginia, a route with which I am very familiar, and there was
    > > a backup at the toll booths. I tried dropping off of the interstate
    > > and asking the Garmin to take us to South Jersey by the shortest
    > > route. We soon found ourselves driving down narrow country roads,
    > > making multiple changes, headed in a generally eastward direction.
    > > By the time we reached US13 I had realized that Garmin was taking us
    > > to the Lewes-Cape May ferry -- without, of course, regard for the
    > > ferry schedule. At that point I abandoned the GPS and headed up US
    > > 13 to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

    >
    > you can set it to ignore ferries, toll roads, etc.


    This was an early model, from 2004, and I'm not sure if it could or
    not. I no longer own the unit so I can't check.

    --
    John Varela
     
    John Varela, Dec 4, 2011
    #16
  17. Wes Groleau

    John Varela Guest

    On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:55:13 UTC, Wes Groleau
    <> wrote:

    > On 12-03-2011 11:09, nospam wrote:
    > > i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    > > side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    > > up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.

    >
    > I once accidentally got off the highway, and the GPS apparently
    > "assumed" that I did it on purpose. Instead of "rerouting" a
    > U-turn back onto the highway, it asked me to do something similar
    > to what you described.


    The Capital Beltway has a few interchanges where for a half-mile or
    so a service road parallels the Interstate and the ramps to the
    cross road exit and enter from the service road. When that service
    road is on the inside of a curve it's a skosh shorter than the main
    road. In that case, my old Garmin used to tell me to take the
    service road. My new TomTom is smarter than that.

    --
    John Varela
     
    John Varela, Dec 4, 2011
    #17
  18. In article <031220111852205494%>, Davoud <> wrote:

    >Yes, it seems we all have to learn the hard way at some point. As a
    >practical matter you cannot get to South Jersey--or anywhere north or
    >east of the Maryland-Delaware border‹from points south without using
    >I-95 and passing through the Delaware tool booths. That's like trying
    >to beat death and taxes.


    The Delaware tolls are trivial to avoid (279 to 4 to 896). Before
    EZ-Pass and during construction, this was actually faster. The
    Susquehanna River tolls are harder to avoid; you can take Route 1 but
    it's a long way out of the way.
    --
    The problem with socialism is there's always
    someone with less ability and more need.
     
    Matthew Russotto, Dec 4, 2011
    #18
  19. On 12/3/11 PDT 3:41 PM, nospam wrote:
    > In article<jbdlq5$52b$>, John McWilliams
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>> i once had a gps tell me to get off the highway, drive 50 miles on a
    >>> side road that ran parallel to the highway and rejoin the same highway
    >>> up ahead. needless to say, i ignored that.

    >>
    >> You were lucky! That was when there was a sniper hitting every tenth car....

    >
    > oh! was that it? these gps devices need to have a built-in police radio
    > to reroute around crime scenes!
    >
    >> Did the lady (or gent) actually use the words "get off the highway"- or
    >> what did it say?

    >
    > it beeps and has on-screen graphics. i hate gps devices that talk. the
    > last thing i need is another voice to nag me on how to drive. :)
    >
    >> Does your unit do traffic routing?

    >
    > no it doesn't and there wasn't any traffic anyway. this was on a rural
    > highway and my intended destination was 100 miles or so ahead, well
    > past where it wanted me to exit and later rejoin. there was no reason
    > to exit anywhere near there. it was purely arbitrary and was obviously
    > a bug.
    >
    > the bizarre thing is it was really insistent. once it realized i was
    > not going to do what it wanted me to do, it told me to take the next
    > exit, make a u-turn, backtrack and make another u-turn and continue.
    > needless to say, i ignored that too.


    It was trying to tell you, "You can't get there from here"

    My lady voice is quite nice, and does not have "recalculating" in her
    vocab.... So far.
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 4, 2011
    #19
  20. Wes Groleau

    Alan Browne Guest

    On 2011-12-03 18:57 , Davoud wrote:
    > Paul Sture:
    >
    >> To my recollection it was more about trucks ending up in narrow alleys
    >> in which they couldn't maneuver or before bridges they could not get under.
    >>
    >> There are GPS devices that are tuned to truckers needs - they draw the
    >> data from the same atlases that truckers use (designed with the needs
    >> and limitations of truckers).

    >
    > Those are urban legends.


    No. I recall a specific case in England where a truck got jammed under
    an overpass due to his GPS.

    > Before GPS, and now in addition to GPS,
    > truckers rely on Truck atlases that show truck routes--including many


    Yes. I pointed that out above.




    --
    "I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
     
    Alan Browne, Dec 4, 2011
    #20
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