Sheesh! A New Text Edit Annoyance

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Davoud, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. Davoud

    Davoud Guest

    I received a Word document as an e-mail attachment. I saved it to my HD
    and then went to the Finder and selected Open With > TextEdit. When I
    tried to edit the text I got the following:

    "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"

    No s**t? You mean if I change the document it will be changed? Really?
    Thanks for that valuable tip. Perhaps I should sleep on it and decide
    if I really want to fix those spelling and punctuation errors, or paste
    the text into a web page as-is and look like an illiterate.

    Am I sure? The general answer was best expressed in this quote the late
    Richard Feynman: "I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not
    knowing.... I have approximate answers and possible beliefs... but I'm
    not absolutely sure of anything..."
    <http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/archive/fe
    ynman/>

    My specific answer is not so eloquent: "Yes, I'm sure I want to edit
    this f**king document. I have Windows 7 installed on this MBPro as
    well. It's a very good, very stable, and yes, very secure operating
    system, but it annoys the hell out of me with its constant pestering.
    If the Mac OS is going to annoy me in the same way, why would I use it
    instead of Windows, which still has far more great software than the
    Mac? So let me make my own decisions and my own mistakes, if mistakes
    they be, and stop mothering me."

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
    Davoud, Jul 28, 2012
    #1
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  2. Davoud

    JF Mezei Guest

    Davoud wrote:

    > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"



    Considering the undesirable "auto save" feature, this dialogue is
    necessary, especially since text edit is a subset of word, so the minute
    you change something, you lose the original word document which will
    likely be replaced by an rtf version with many features removed.
    JF Mezei, Jul 28, 2012
    #2
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  3. Davoud

    Lewis Guest

    In message <280720121034226769%>
    Davoud <> wrote:
    > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"


    > No s**t? You mean if I change the document it will be changed? Really?


    No, not just changed. Textedit doesn't write .doc format. Making changes
    in a word file in textedit will do a lot more than simply makes changes,
    it will destroy the original file and you will lose elements that you
    may not realize you are losing. Thus the perfectly sensible warning.

    > My specific answer is not so eloquent: "Yes, I'm sure I want to edit
    > this f**king document. I have Windows 7 installed on this MBPro as
    > well. It's a very good, very stable, and yes, very secure operating
    > system, but it annoys the hell out of me with its constant pestering.


    Lithium.

    --
    Generalizations are always inaccurate.
    Lewis, Jul 28, 2012
    #3
  4. Davoud

    Salmon Egg Guest

    In article <50142a8b$0$1482$c3e8da3$>,
    JF Mezei <> wrote:

    > Davoud wrote:
    >
    > > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > > formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > > "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"

    >
    >
    > Considering the undesirable "auto save" feature, this dialogue is
    > necessary, especially since text edit is a subset of word, so the minute
    > you change something, you lose the original word document which will
    > likely be replaced by an rtf version with many features removed.


    One time Feynman explained it was easier to set various constants to one
    in order to do calculations. For example from my poor memory c=1,
    hbar=1, e-1, etc. Then when all done, you put the symbols back in. When
    asked about using dimensions in order to detect mistakes, he replied,
    "Don't make mistakes."

    Now, if you are a Feynman, you should have no problem editing the
    original file.

    --

    Sam

    Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
    Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
    Salmon Egg, Jul 28, 2012
    #4
  5. In article <>,
    Lewis <> wrote:

    > In message <280720121034226769%>
    > Davoud <> wrote:
    > > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > > formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > > "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"

    >
    > > No s**t? You mean if I change the document it will be changed? Really?

    >
    > No, not just changed. Textedit doesn't write .doc format. Making changes
    > in a word file in textedit will do a lot more than simply makes changes,
    > it will destroy the original file and you will lose elements that you
    > may not realize you are losing. Thus the perfectly sensible warning.
    >
    > > My specific answer is not so eloquent: "Yes, I'm sure I want to edit
    > > this f**king document. I have Windows 7 installed on this MBPro as
    > > well. It's a very good, very stable, and yes, very secure operating
    > > system, but it annoys the hell out of me with its constant pestering.

    >
    > Lithium.


    My sister has a better track record with a mix of lithium and
    Welbrutran. While you're on it, no caffeine or alcohol. And drink LOTS
    of water.

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
    [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
    Michael Vilain, Jul 29, 2012
    #5
  6. Davoud

    Davoud Guest

    Salmon Egg:

    > Now, if you are a Feynman, you should have no problem editing the
    > original file.


    Speaking only for my part as OP in this thread, I compared my answer to
    Feynman's by saying "My specific answer is not so eloquent..." That
    could be taken as an indication that I am aware of the shortcomings
    that keep me out of Feynman's league.

    For my money, no one in 20th-century physics, or thus far in the 21st
    century, is in Feynman's league--not even Einstein.

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
    Davoud, Jul 29, 2012
    #6
  7. Davoud

    Joe Guest

    In article <280720122229040430%>, Davoud <>
    wrote:

    > For my money, no one in 20th-century physics, or thus far in the 21st
    > century, is in Feynman's league--not even Einstein.


    Gasp! If Davoud says it, IT MUST BE TRUE!

    --- Joe
    Joe, Jul 29, 2012
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    Paul Sture <> wrote:

    > On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:34:22 -0400, Davoud wrote:
    >
    > > I received a Word document as an e-mail attachment. I saved it to my HD
    > > and then went to the Finder and selected Open With > TextEdit. When I
    > > tried to edit the text I got the following:
    > >
    > > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > > formatting.
    > > Would you like to duplicate the document first?" "Overwrite, Cancel,
    > > Duplicate"
    > >
    > > No s**t? You mean if I change the document it will be changed? Really?
    > > Thanks for that valuable tip.

    >
    > The relevant phrase is "Modifying the document in place might cause you
    > to lose some of the original formatting."
    >
    > Just like importing a Word document into Pages can give you warnings that
    > the original formatting will be lost.


    Or even reading files written with Windows versions of Word into Mac
    versions, since they don't have feature parity. Although in this case,
    you often get the warning at the time it's reading the document, telling
    you that some particular item in the original will not be included.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
    Barry Margolin, Jul 29, 2012
    #8
  9. Davoud

    Bread Guest

    On 2012-07-28 14:34:22 +0000, Davoud said:

    > I received a Word document as an e-mail attachment. I saved it to my HD
    > and then went to the Finder and selected Open With > TextEdit. When I
    > tried to edit the text I got the following:
    >
    > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"


    That's a natural consequence of auto-save, resume and versions wherein,
    in theory, the user doesn't have to remember to close or save documents.

    In practice, it makes for corner cases where you have to make explicit choices.

    You imported a document and auto-save will cause it to be modified more
    than just the changes you explicitly made because TextEdit cannot
    handle all of Word's formatting options.

    It was a very reasonable question.

    In an earlier OS and verstion of TextEdit you'd not have been presented
    with those choices, but rather when the document opened, it would have
    been explicitly an imported document and when you closed it, or hit the
    Save button, it would not have automatically overwritten the original,
    either but rather it would have presented you with a SaveAs dialog box.
    Would that similarly have caused you to complain about "pestering"?
    It's not really all that different - you cannot import a document and
    then overwrite it without explicitly doing so -- that's a *good* thing.
    Bread, Jul 29, 2012
    #9
  10. Davoud

    Davoud Guest

    Davoud:
    > > I received a Word document as an e-mail attachment. I saved it to my HD
    > > and then went to the Finder and selected Open With > TextEdit. When I
    > > tried to edit the text I got the following:
    > >
    > > "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > > document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > > formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > > "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"


    Bread:
    > That's a natural consequence of auto-save, resume and versions wherein,
    > in theory, the user doesn't have to remember to close or save documents.


    > In practice, it makes for corner cases where you have to make explicit
    > choices.


    > You imported a document and auto-save will cause it to be modified more
    > than just the changes you explicitly made because TextEdit cannot
    > handle all of Word's formatting options.
    >
    > It was a very reasonable question.


    It was a question that assumed that I did not know that editing a .docx
    with TextEdit would change it. It was my /intention? to change the
    document and save it as RTF, otherwise I would have opened the document
    in Word for Windows or simply used Quick Look to read without opening.
    I propose a compromise: a "Do not show this message again" box for
    those who are able to grok it the first time.

    As a cabinetmaker I know one sense of the phrase corner case, but I
    don't think that is the sense in which you used it. What is a corner
    case in your context?

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
    Davoud, Jul 29, 2012
    #10
  11. Davoud

    Wes Groleau Guest

    On 07-28-2012 23:53, Joe wrote:
    > In article <280720122229040430%>, Davoud <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> For my money, no one in 20th-century physics, or thus far in the 21st
    >> century, is in Feynman's league--not even Einstein.

    >
    > Gasp! If Davoud says it, IT MUST BE TRUE!


    Yes, he's a fine man.


    --
    Wes Groleau

    He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
    — Samuel Butler, 1612-1680
    Wes Groleau, Jul 29, 2012
    #11
  12. Davoud

    Wes Groleau Guest

    On 07-29-2012 13:12, Bread wrote:
    > On 2012-07-28 14:34:22 +0000, Davoud said:
    >
    >> I received a Word document as an e-mail attachment. I saved it to my HD
    >> and then went to the Finder and selected Open With > TextEdit. When I
    >> tried to edit the text I got the following:
    >>
    >> "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    >> document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    >> formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    >> "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"

    >
    > That's a natural consequence of auto-save, resume and versions wherein,
    > in theory, the user doesn't have to remember to close or save documents.


    An unwanted consequence of features that are also unwanted for some.

    --
    Wes Groleau

    He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
    — Samuel Butler, 1612-1680
    Wes Groleau, Jul 29, 2012
    #12
  13. Davoud

    JF Mezei Guest

    In an autosave scenario, textedit should open any "foreign" document as
    a new "untitled" document to ensure that it does not overwrite the
    original. I believe this was standard practice in the past.
    JF Mezei, Jul 29, 2012
    #13
  14. Davoud

    nospam Guest

    In article <5015a506$0$45494$c3e8da3$>, JF
    Mezei <> wrote:

    > In an autosave scenario, textedit should open any "foreign" document as
    > a new "untitled" document to ensure that it does not overwrite the
    > original. I believe this was standard practice in the past.


    it should do that in *any* scenario since it can't write anything back
    to the same document without destroying the original. it's broken.
    nospam, Jul 29, 2012
    #14
  15. Davoud

    Davoud Guest

    Davoud:
    > >> I received a Word document as an e-mail attachment. I saved it to my HD
    > >> and then went to the Finder and selected Open With > TextEdit. When I
    > >> tried to edit the text I got the following:


    > >> "Are you sure you want to modify the document in place? Modifying the
    > >> document in place might cause you to lose some of the original
    > >> formatting. Would you like to duplicate the document first?"
    > >> "Overwrite, Cancel, Duplicate"


    Bread:
    > > That's a natural consequence of auto-save, resume and versions wherein,
    > > in theory, the user doesn't have to remember to close or save documents.


    Wes Groleau:
    > An unwanted consequence of features that are also unwanted for some.


    Thanks. I forgot to mention that. Screw it up and then remind me that
    you screwed it up by warning me not to screw it up further. This I
    needed?

    "I hate these casts."

    "They are a natural consequence of the fact that we have broken both of
    your legs. In theory you don't have to remember not to try to walk."

    --
    I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
    you will say in your entire life.

    usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
    Davoud, Jul 29, 2012
    #15
  16. In article <290720121757303041%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > In article <5015a506$0$45494$c3e8da3$>, JF
    > Mezei <> wrote:
    >
    > > In an autosave scenario, textedit should open any "foreign" document as
    > > a new "untitled" document to ensure that it does not overwrite the
    > > original. I believe this was standard practice in the past.

    >
    > it should do that in *any* scenario since it can't write anything back
    > to the same document without destroying the original. it's broken.


    But in the normal scenario the history feature lets you recover earlier
    versions. It sounds like this doesn't work in the case where it's
    converting the file from Word to RTF.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
    Barry Margolin, Jul 30, 2012
    #16
  17. Davoud

    nospam Guest

    In article <-september.org>,
    Barry Margolin <> wrote:

    > > > In an autosave scenario, textedit should open any "foreign" document as
    > > > a new "untitled" document to ensure that it does not overwrite the
    > > > original. I believe this was standard practice in the past.

    > >
    > > it should do that in *any* scenario since it can't write anything back
    > > to the same document without destroying the original. it's broken.

    >
    > But in the normal scenario the history feature lets you recover earlier
    > versions.


    exactly what one would expect.

    > It sounds like this doesn't work in the case where it's
    > converting the file from Word to RTF.


    since it *can't* write back the format it's in, it should not even
    attempt it. the only result is data loss, and that's not acceptable.
    it's broken.
    nospam, Jul 30, 2012
    #17
  18. In article <300720120044428920%>,
    nospam <> wrote:

    > In article <-september.org>,
    > Barry Margolin <> wrote:
    >
    > > > > In an autosave scenario, textedit should open any "foreign" document as
    > > > > a new "untitled" document to ensure that it does not overwrite the
    > > > > original. I believe this was standard practice in the past.
    > > >
    > > > it should do that in *any* scenario since it can't write anything back
    > > > to the same document without destroying the original. it's broken.

    > >
    > > But in the normal scenario the history feature lets you recover earlier
    > > versions.

    >
    > exactly what one would expect.
    >
    > > It sounds like this doesn't work in the case where it's
    > > converting the file from Word to RTF.

    >
    > since it *can't* write back the format it's in, it should not even
    > attempt it. the only result is data loss, and that's not acceptable.
    > it's broken.


    It gives the choice to the user when they try to edit the document,
    warning them that they'll lose the previous data.

    They can use Duplicate or Save As (which is back in Mountain Lion) to
    avoid the data loss.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
    Barry Margolin, Jul 30, 2012
    #18
  19. Davoud

    Ant Guest

    On 7/29/2012 11:32 PM PT, Barry Margolin typed:

    > It gives the choice to the user when they try to edit the document,
    > warning them that they'll lose the previous data.
    >
    > They can use Duplicate or Save As (which is back in Mountain Lion) to
    > avoid the data loss.


    When was it removed? Wasn't it in 10.7.x? I don't remember it in 10.5.x.
    --
    "I think the ants are waking up -- they need to start farming so..."
    --Erin from The Office (U.S.) S7E18 (Todd Packer).
    /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
    / /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
    | |o o| |
    \ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
    ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
    Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.
    Ant, Jul 30, 2012
    #19
  20. In article <>,
    Ant <> wrote:

    > On 7/29/2012 11:32 PM PT, Barry Margolin typed:
    >
    > > It gives the choice to the user when they try to edit the document,
    > > warning them that they'll lose the previous data.
    > >
    > > They can use Duplicate or Save As (which is back in Mountain Lion) to
    > > avoid the data loss.

    >
    > When was it removed? Wasn't it in 10.7.x? I don't remember it in 10.5.x.


    Yes, it went away in Lion, and is back in Mountain Lion. This is from
    reading, as I'm still on Snow Leopard.

    --
    Barry Margolin,
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
    Barry Margolin, Jul 30, 2012
    #20
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