The continuing (mis)adventures of a guy and his MDD...

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Don Bruder, May 4, 2012.

  1. Don Bruder

    Don Bruder Guest

    Remember the other day when I said I wanted to do something unorthodox?

    Well, I guess I got my wish...

    Part of what led up to my deciding to do a re-install of Tiger was the
    fact that I recently started getting panics at an unusual rate, and for
    no reasons that were at all apparent.

    Monday morning, I left the rig, as usual, running a chunk of code I've
    written, and which, until now, anyway, has been behaving perfectly - No
    reason to suspect any misbehavior from it aside from one small leak that
    I just can't pin down - Instead of leaving it run 24/7, I need to quit
    and restart it about every third day to clean up the leakage. Aside from
    that, no particular problems, nothing fancy being done, or anything like
    that.

    Monday afternoon when I got back from work, I walked in to find it
    sitting at the "You need to restart your computer" panic screen. Mash
    and hold the button. Bonggggggggg. Long delay - At least 3 times usual.
    Grey screen with darker grey apple logo. Spinning thing below it appears
    and spins for a while. Dark blue screen and <clickety-click> noises as
    monitor switches resolutions (normal for this monitor) to show the usual
    pale blue screen. Then pale blue screen turns into the panic screen.

    Aw, crap...

    Do the restart cycle again. Identical results. Repeat x3, maybe x4,
    can't remember for sure. Recall the old line about doing the same thing
    over and over while expecting a different result being a sign of mental
    illness and stop. Pull out Install DVD (A Retail Tiger that installs
    10.4.6) and boot from there. Boots up fine. Drops me into the installer
    as expected. Use the utilities menu to swap startup drives to the second
    internal drive in the system (Which had a "mirror copy" of the 10.4.11
    installation that the primary drive has been running for at least 2
    years now.) and restart.

    Machine boots up. Drop to terminal and clone the primary drive to a
    folder on the half-terabyte external drive using
    sudo cp -Rv /Volumes/Primary/ /Volumes/External/OldPrimary/

    Go to the kitchen and make/eat supper.

    Come back after eating to find that the copy has finished.

    Click on the desktop to get out of the terminal window, and <SPLAT>
    There's the panic screen again. OK, now I'm getting worried...

    Restart. All looks good until just after the desktop appears, but before
    all the various "things I leave sitting on the desktop" icons have
    finihed showing up - I'd guesstimate that half of them appeared before
    <SPLAT> There's that lovely panic screen again...

    Long story shorter...

    Now it's three days later, Both of the internal drives have been cloned
    to the external, both have been zeroed out and repartitioned via Disk
    Utilities from the install DVD, installer has been run more times than I
    can remember accurately, aimed at both of the internal drives,
    everything other than "absolute bare bones" has been pulled off the
    machine - I've pulled the "plain white box" USB 2 card, the "Sonnet"
    pseudo-airport card, and I've even tried going back to the original
    512Megs of RAM that came with the machine (in the form of two 256 meg
    sticks - Down from the 4x512MB sticks that have been running in it just
    fine for about 2 years now. All in vain... I still have no live MDD - I
    get one of two results when I try to restart: Either it panics before
    the desktop appears, or it gets to the point where I'd expect the
    desktop to appear, and then the monitor goes into "I'm getting no signal
    - no point in my staying awake" shutdown mode, and nothing I can do will
    "wake it up".

    Going for a "safe boot" from either of the internal drives works fine -
    Except that in that mode, I can't accomplish anything useful.

    I've zapped the PRAM, and dropped into open-firmware to reset the NVRAM
    (both done multiple times) as suggested by various sources (including
    Apple). No change. Hit the PMU reset button inside. No change. Pulled
    one drive, then the other. No change.

    Putting the drives in the Sawtooth works fine - Both of them boot it
    without a hitch, so clearly, it's not "their fault". This message is
    coming at you through the ersatz Airport card, also plugged into the
    sawtooth, so I'd say that it isn't the trouble. Likewise, the USB2 card
    and the external drive that hangs off it are also now plugged into the
    Sawtooth and working fine, so I'd say a problem there is eliminated.

    At this point, I'm at wit's end - As one might imagine, going from a
    dual 867MHz system to a single 400MHz CPU is quite the performance
    hit... But for the moment, at least, it's what I'm stuck with.

    Anybody got any suggestions for me to try? I'm ready to attempt just
    about anything that doesn't involve money-that's-not-in-the-budget to
    get this rig back up and running.

    (Took a quick glance around the web and decided that replacing the MB is
    going to be a no-go... Of the three places I looked, the cheapest was
    well over $500 - $595.95, to be exact! Since I only gave $125 for the
    machine in the first place, and a brand new Mini only costs...)

    --
    Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
    or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
    somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
    ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
     
    Don Bruder, May 4, 2012
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. In article <jo04l9$lbf$>, Don Bruder <>
    wrote:

    > Remember the other day when I said I wanted to do something unorthodox?
    >
    > Well, I guess I got my wish...
    >
    > Part of what led up to my deciding to do a re-install of Tiger was the
    > fact that I recently started getting panics at an unusual rate, and for
    > no reasons that were at all apparent.
    >
    > Monday morning, I left the rig, as usual, running a chunk of code I've
    > written, and which, until now, anyway, has been behaving perfectly - No
    > reason to suspect any misbehavior from it aside from one small leak that
    > I just can't pin down - Instead of leaving it run 24/7, I need to quit
    > and restart it about every third day to clean up the leakage. Aside from
    > that, no particular problems, nothing fancy being done, or anything like
    > that.
    >
    > Monday afternoon when I got back from work, I walked in to find it
    > sitting at the "You need to restart your computer" panic screen. Mash
    > and hold the button. Bonggggggggg. Long delay - At least 3 times usual.
    > Grey screen with darker grey apple logo. Spinning thing below it appears
    > and spins for a while. Dark blue screen and <clickety-click> noises as
    > monitor switches resolutions (normal for this monitor) to show the usual
    > pale blue screen. Then pale blue screen turns into the panic screen.
    >
    > Aw, crap...
    >
    > Do the restart cycle again. Identical results. Repeat x3, maybe x4,
    > can't remember for sure. Recall the old line about doing the same thing
    > over and over while expecting a different result being a sign of mental
    > illness and stop. Pull out Install DVD (A Retail Tiger that installs
    > 10.4.6) and boot from there. Boots up fine. Drops me into the installer
    > as expected. Use the utilities menu to swap startup drives to the second
    > internal drive in the system (Which had a "mirror copy" of the 10.4.11
    > installation that the primary drive has been running for at least 2
    > years now.) and restart.
    >
    > Machine boots up. Drop to terminal and clone the primary drive to a
    > folder on the half-terabyte external drive using
    > sudo cp -Rv /Volumes/Primary/ /Volumes/External/OldPrimary/
    >
    > Go to the kitchen and make/eat supper.
    >
    > Come back after eating to find that the copy has finished.
    >
    > Click on the desktop to get out of the terminal window, and <SPLAT>
    > There's the panic screen again. OK, now I'm getting worried...
    >
    > Restart. All looks good until just after the desktop appears, but before
    > all the various "things I leave sitting on the desktop" icons have
    > finihed showing up - I'd guesstimate that half of them appeared before
    > <SPLAT> There's that lovely panic screen again...
    >
    > Long story shorter...
    >
    > Now it's three days later, Both of the internal drives have been cloned
    > to the external, both have been zeroed out and repartitioned via Disk
    > Utilities from the install DVD, installer has been run more times than I
    > can remember accurately, aimed at both of the internal drives,
    > everything other than "absolute bare bones" has been pulled off the
    > machine - I've pulled the "plain white box" USB 2 card, the "Sonnet"
    > pseudo-airport card, and I've even tried going back to the original
    > 512Megs of RAM that came with the machine (in the form of two 256 meg
    > sticks - Down from the 4x512MB sticks that have been running in it just
    > fine for about 2 years now. All in vain... I still have no live MDD - I
    > get one of two results when I try to restart: Either it panics before
    > the desktop appears, or it gets to the point where I'd expect the
    > desktop to appear, and then the monitor goes into "I'm getting no signal
    > - no point in my staying awake" shutdown mode, and nothing I can do will
    > "wake it up".
    >
    > Going for a "safe boot" from either of the internal drives works fine -
    > Except that in that mode, I can't accomplish anything useful.
    >
    > I've zapped the PRAM, and dropped into open-firmware to reset the NVRAM
    > (both done multiple times) as suggested by various sources (including
    > Apple). No change. Hit the PMU reset button inside. No change. Pulled
    > one drive, then the other. No change.
    >
    > Putting the drives in the Sawtooth works fine - Both of them boot it
    > without a hitch, so clearly, it's not "their fault". This message is
    > coming at you through the ersatz Airport card, also plugged into the
    > sawtooth, so I'd say that it isn't the trouble. Likewise, the USB2 card
    > and the external drive that hangs off it are also now plugged into the
    > Sawtooth and working fine, so I'd say a problem there is eliminated.
    >
    > At this point, I'm at wit's end - As one might imagine, going from a
    > dual 867MHz system to a single 400MHz CPU is quite the performance
    > hit... But for the moment, at least, it's what I'm stuck with.
    >
    > Anybody got any suggestions for me to try? I'm ready to attempt just
    > about anything that doesn't involve money-that's-not-in-the-budget to
    > get this rig back up and running.
    >
    > (Took a quick glance around the web and decided that replacing the MB is
    > going to be a no-go... Of the three places I looked, the cheapest was
    > well over $500 - $595.95, to be exact! Since I only gave $125 for the
    > machine in the first place, and a brand new Mini only costs...)


    My guess is that it's the MB and you'll have to decide if you should
    recycle this puppy or sell it for parts on Craigslist. Your call.

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
    [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
     
    Michael Vilain, May 4, 2012
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Don Bruder

    Don Bruder Guest

    In article <>,
    Michael Vilain <> wrote:

    > In article <jo04l9$lbf$>, Don Bruder <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Remember the other day when I said I wanted to do something unorthodox?
    > >
    > > Well, I guess I got my wish...
    > >
    > > Part of what led up to my deciding to do a re-install of Tiger was the
    > > fact that I recently started getting panics at an unusual rate, and for
    > > no reasons that were at all apparent.
    > >
    > > Monday morning, I left the rig, as usual, running a chunk of code I've
    > > written, and which, until now, anyway, has been behaving perfectly - No
    > > reason to suspect any misbehavior from it aside from one small leak that
    > > I just can't pin down - Instead of leaving it run 24/7, I need to quit
    > > and restart it about every third day to clean up the leakage. Aside from
    > > that, no particular problems, nothing fancy being done, or anything like
    > > that.
    > >
    > > Monday afternoon when I got back from work, I walked in to find it
    > > sitting at the "You need to restart your computer" panic screen. Mash
    > > and hold the button. Bonggggggggg. Long delay - At least 3 times usual.
    > > Grey screen with darker grey apple logo. Spinning thing below it appears
    > > and spins for a while. Dark blue screen and <clickety-click> noises as
    > > monitor switches resolutions (normal for this monitor) to show the usual
    > > pale blue screen. Then pale blue screen turns into the panic screen.
    > >
    > > Aw, crap...
    > >
    > > Do the restart cycle again. Identical results. Repeat x3, maybe x4,
    > > can't remember for sure. Recall the old line about doing the same thing
    > > over and over while expecting a different result being a sign of mental
    > > illness and stop. Pull out Install DVD (A Retail Tiger that installs
    > > 10.4.6) and boot from there. Boots up fine. Drops me into the installer
    > > as expected. Use the utilities menu to swap startup drives to the second
    > > internal drive in the system (Which had a "mirror copy" of the 10.4.11
    > > installation that the primary drive has been running for at least 2
    > > years now.) and restart.
    > >
    > > Machine boots up. Drop to terminal and clone the primary drive to a
    > > folder on the half-terabyte external drive using
    > > sudo cp -Rv /Volumes/Primary/ /Volumes/External/OldPrimary/
    > >
    > > Go to the kitchen and make/eat supper.
    > >
    > > Come back after eating to find that the copy has finished.
    > >
    > > Click on the desktop to get out of the terminal window, and <SPLAT>
    > > There's the panic screen again. OK, now I'm getting worried...
    > >
    > > Restart. All looks good until just after the desktop appears, but before
    > > all the various "things I leave sitting on the desktop" icons have
    > > finihed showing up - I'd guesstimate that half of them appeared before
    > > <SPLAT> There's that lovely panic screen again...
    > >
    > > Long story shorter...
    > >
    > > Now it's three days later, Both of the internal drives have been cloned
    > > to the external, both have been zeroed out and repartitioned via Disk
    > > Utilities from the install DVD, installer has been run more times than I
    > > can remember accurately, aimed at both of the internal drives,
    > > everything other than "absolute bare bones" has been pulled off the
    > > machine - I've pulled the "plain white box" USB 2 card, the "Sonnet"
    > > pseudo-airport card, and I've even tried going back to the original
    > > 512Megs of RAM that came with the machine (in the form of two 256 meg
    > > sticks - Down from the 4x512MB sticks that have been running in it just
    > > fine for about 2 years now. All in vain... I still have no live MDD - I
    > > get one of two results when I try to restart: Either it panics before
    > > the desktop appears, or it gets to the point where I'd expect the
    > > desktop to appear, and then the monitor goes into "I'm getting no signal
    > > - no point in my staying awake" shutdown mode, and nothing I can do will
    > > "wake it up".
    > >
    > > Going for a "safe boot" from either of the internal drives works fine -
    > > Except that in that mode, I can't accomplish anything useful.
    > >
    > > I've zapped the PRAM, and dropped into open-firmware to reset the NVRAM
    > > (both done multiple times) as suggested by various sources (including
    > > Apple). No change. Hit the PMU reset button inside. No change. Pulled
    > > one drive, then the other. No change.
    > >
    > > Putting the drives in the Sawtooth works fine - Both of them boot it
    > > without a hitch, so clearly, it's not "their fault". This message is
    > > coming at you through the ersatz Airport card, also plugged into the
    > > sawtooth, so I'd say that it isn't the trouble. Likewise, the USB2 card
    > > and the external drive that hangs off it are also now plugged into the
    > > Sawtooth and working fine, so I'd say a problem there is eliminated.
    > >
    > > At this point, I'm at wit's end - As one might imagine, going from a
    > > dual 867MHz system to a single 400MHz CPU is quite the performance
    > > hit... But for the moment, at least, it's what I'm stuck with.
    > >
    > > Anybody got any suggestions for me to try? I'm ready to attempt just
    > > about anything that doesn't involve money-that's-not-in-the-budget to
    > > get this rig back up and running.
    > >
    > > (Took a quick glance around the web and decided that replacing the MB is
    > > going to be a no-go... Of the three places I looked, the cheapest was
    > > well over $500 - $595.95, to be exact! Since I only gave $125 for the
    > > machine in the first place, and a brand new Mini only costs...)

    >
    > My guess is that it's the MB and you'll have to decide if you should
    > recycle this puppy or sell it for parts on Craigslist. Your call.


    The part I don't get is the fact that it boots fine in safe mode, or
    from the DVD. It isn't until after I've done an install, and try to fire
    up "normally" from whichever drive I just installed to that it panics.

    ATA Controller gone south, but everything else is still just dandy,
    perhaps? Seems unlikely, but "unlikely" only means "I ain't seen it
    before".

    Wish I could convince the beast to install to and/or boot from the
    external drive that hangs off the USB card, but nothing I've tried has
    managed to make that happen, and nothing I can find online suggests that
    it's even possible.

    --
    Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
    or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
    somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
    ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
     
    Don Bruder, May 4, 2012
    #3
  4. In article <jo1cu1$484$>, Don Bruder <>
    wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Michael Vilain <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <jo04l9$lbf$>, Don Bruder <>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > > Remember the other day when I said I wanted to do something unorthodox?
    > > >
    > > > Well, I guess I got my wish...
    > > >
    > > > Part of what led up to my deciding to do a re-install of Tiger was the
    > > > fact that I recently started getting panics at an unusual rate, and for
    > > > no reasons that were at all apparent.
    > > >
    > > > Monday morning, I left the rig, as usual, running a chunk of code I've
    > > > written, and which, until now, anyway, has been behaving perfectly - No
    > > > reason to suspect any misbehavior from it aside from one small leak that
    > > > I just can't pin down - Instead of leaving it run 24/7, I need to quit
    > > > and restart it about every third day to clean up the leakage. Aside from
    > > > that, no particular problems, nothing fancy being done, or anything like
    > > > that.
    > > >
    > > > Monday afternoon when I got back from work, I walked in to find it
    > > > sitting at the "You need to restart your computer" panic screen. Mash
    > > > and hold the button. Bonggggggggg. Long delay - At least 3 times usual.
    > > > Grey screen with darker grey apple logo. Spinning thing below it appears
    > > > and spins for a while. Dark blue screen and <clickety-click> noises as
    > > > monitor switches resolutions (normal for this monitor) to show the usual
    > > > pale blue screen. Then pale blue screen turns into the panic screen.
    > > >
    > > > Aw, crap...
    > > >
    > > > Do the restart cycle again. Identical results. Repeat x3, maybe x4,
    > > > can't remember for sure. Recall the old line about doing the same thing
    > > > over and over while expecting a different result being a sign of mental
    > > > illness and stop. Pull out Install DVD (A Retail Tiger that installs
    > > > 10.4.6) and boot from there. Boots up fine. Drops me into the installer
    > > > as expected. Use the utilities menu to swap startup drives to the second
    > > > internal drive in the system (Which had a "mirror copy" of the 10.4.11
    > > > installation that the primary drive has been running for at least 2
    > > > years now.) and restart.
    > > >
    > > > Machine boots up. Drop to terminal and clone the primary drive to a
    > > > folder on the half-terabyte external drive using
    > > > sudo cp -Rv /Volumes/Primary/ /Volumes/External/OldPrimary/
    > > >
    > > > Go to the kitchen and make/eat supper.
    > > >
    > > > Come back after eating to find that the copy has finished.
    > > >
    > > > Click on the desktop to get out of the terminal window, and <SPLAT>
    > > > There's the panic screen again. OK, now I'm getting worried...
    > > >
    > > > Restart. All looks good until just after the desktop appears, but before
    > > > all the various "things I leave sitting on the desktop" icons have
    > > > finihed showing up - I'd guesstimate that half of them appeared before
    > > > <SPLAT> There's that lovely panic screen again...
    > > >
    > > > Long story shorter...
    > > >
    > > > Now it's three days later, Both of the internal drives have been cloned
    > > > to the external, both have been zeroed out and repartitioned via Disk
    > > > Utilities from the install DVD, installer has been run more times than I
    > > > can remember accurately, aimed at both of the internal drives,
    > > > everything other than "absolute bare bones" has been pulled off the
    > > > machine - I've pulled the "plain white box" USB 2 card, the "Sonnet"
    > > > pseudo-airport card, and I've even tried going back to the original
    > > > 512Megs of RAM that came with the machine (in the form of two 256 meg
    > > > sticks - Down from the 4x512MB sticks that have been running in it just
    > > > fine for about 2 years now. All in vain... I still have no live MDD - I
    > > > get one of two results when I try to restart: Either it panics before
    > > > the desktop appears, or it gets to the point where I'd expect the
    > > > desktop to appear, and then the monitor goes into "I'm getting no signal
    > > > - no point in my staying awake" shutdown mode, and nothing I can do will
    > > > "wake it up".
    > > >
    > > > Going for a "safe boot" from either of the internal drives works fine -
    > > > Except that in that mode, I can't accomplish anything useful.
    > > >
    > > > I've zapped the PRAM, and dropped into open-firmware to reset the NVRAM
    > > > (both done multiple times) as suggested by various sources (including
    > > > Apple). No change. Hit the PMU reset button inside. No change. Pulled
    > > > one drive, then the other. No change.
    > > >
    > > > Putting the drives in the Sawtooth works fine - Both of them boot it
    > > > without a hitch, so clearly, it's not "their fault". This message is
    > > > coming at you through the ersatz Airport card, also plugged into the
    > > > sawtooth, so I'd say that it isn't the trouble. Likewise, the USB2 card
    > > > and the external drive that hangs off it are also now plugged into the
    > > > Sawtooth and working fine, so I'd say a problem there is eliminated.
    > > >
    > > > At this point, I'm at wit's end - As one might imagine, going from a
    > > > dual 867MHz system to a single 400MHz CPU is quite the performance
    > > > hit... But for the moment, at least, it's what I'm stuck with.
    > > >
    > > > Anybody got any suggestions for me to try? I'm ready to attempt just
    > > > about anything that doesn't involve money-that's-not-in-the-budget to
    > > > get this rig back up and running.
    > > >
    > > > (Took a quick glance around the web and decided that replacing the MB is
    > > > going to be a no-go... Of the three places I looked, the cheapest was
    > > > well over $500 - $595.95, to be exact! Since I only gave $125 for the
    > > > machine in the first place, and a brand new Mini only costs...)

    > >
    > > My guess is that it's the MB and you'll have to decide if you should
    > > recycle this puppy or sell it for parts on Craigslist. Your call.

    >
    > The part I don't get is the fact that it boots fine in safe mode, or
    > from the DVD. It isn't until after I've done an install, and try to fire
    > up "normally" from whichever drive I just installed to that it panics.
    >
    > ATA Controller gone south, but everything else is still just dandy,
    > perhaps? Seems unlikely, but "unlikely" only means "I ain't seen it
    > before".
    >
    > Wish I could convince the beast to install to and/or boot from the
    > external drive that hangs off the USB card, but nothing I've tried has
    > managed to make that happen, and nothing I can find online suggests that
    > it's even possible.


    Intel Macs can boot off USB. PPCs cannot. I guess you have a lot of
    time to mess with this sort of thing. Good luck to you. Post what you
    find out. For me, if I can't diagnose it and get it working within a
    week, it's time to find another system. I have other things to do with
    my life than pulling out a scope, logic analyzer, and soldering iron.

    http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20001003&mode=classic

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
    [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
     
    Michael Vilain, May 5, 2012
    #4
  5. Don Bruder

    David Empson Guest

    Michael Vilain <> wrote:

    > In article <jo1cu1$484$>, Don Bruder <>
    > wrote:
    >


    [...]

    > > The part I don't get is the fact that it boots fine in safe mode, or
    > > from the DVD. It isn't until after I've done an install, and try to fire
    > > up "normally" from whichever drive I just installed to that it panics.
    > >
    > > ATA Controller gone south, but everything else is still just dandy,
    > > perhaps? Seems unlikely, but "unlikely" only means "I ain't seen it
    > > before".
    > >
    > > Wish I could convince the beast to install to and/or boot from the
    > > external drive that hangs off the USB card, but nothing I've tried has
    > > managed to make that happen, and nothing I can find online suggests that
    > > it's even possible.

    >
    > Intel Macs can boot off USB. PPCs cannot.


    Some PPCs can, at least with late enough versions of Mac OS X. My
    PowerMac G4 QuickSilver 2002 can boot from USB using Mac OS X 10.4.11. I
    remember reading somewhere that this started working about 10.4.6.

    I haven't done a wide enough range of tests to determine the precise
    version, nor whether it applies to all models or only some models.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, May 5, 2012
    #5
  6. In article <1kjna8o.1th6uz21d0wowN%>,
    (David Empson) wrote:

    > Michael Vilain <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <jo1cu1$484$>, Don Bruder <>
    > > wrote:
    > >

    >
    > [...]
    >
    > > > The part I don't get is the fact that it boots fine in safe mode, or
    > > > from the DVD. It isn't until after I've done an install, and try to fire
    > > > up "normally" from whichever drive I just installed to that it panics.
    > > >
    > > > ATA Controller gone south, but everything else is still just dandy,
    > > > perhaps? Seems unlikely, but "unlikely" only means "I ain't seen it
    > > > before".
    > > >
    > > > Wish I could convince the beast to install to and/or boot from the
    > > > external drive that hangs off the USB card, but nothing I've tried has
    > > > managed to make that happen, and nothing I can find online suggests that
    > > > it's even possible.

    > >
    > > Intel Macs can boot off USB. PPCs cannot.

    >
    > Some PPCs can, at least with late enough versions of Mac OS X. My
    > PowerMac G4 QuickSilver 2002 can boot from USB using Mac OS X 10.4.11. I
    > remember reading somewhere that this started working about 10.4.6.
    >
    > I haven't done a wide enough range of tests to determine the precise
    > version, nor whether it applies to all models or only some models.


    Strange. My Quicksilver can boot OS 9 but not anything from USB. None
    of the USB sticks are recognized when I boot with the Option key
    depressed. Nor does the Startup Disk system preference recognized a
    disk image of 10.4's install disk that I dd-'d to a USB stick.

    So what are you doing to get your system to boot from USB?

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
    [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
     
    Michael Vilain, May 6, 2012
    #6
  7. Don Bruder

    David Empson Guest

    Michael Vilain <> wrote:

    > In article <1kjna8o.1th6uz21d0wowN%>,
    > (David Empson) wrote:
    >
    > > Michael Vilain <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > In article <jo1cu1$484$>, Don Bruder <>
    > > > wrote:
    > > >

    > >
    > > [...]
    > >
    > > > > The part I don't get is the fact that it boots fine in safe mode, or
    > > > > from the DVD. It isn't until after I've done an install, and try to fire
    > > > > up "normally" from whichever drive I just installed to that it panics.
    > > > >
    > > > > ATA Controller gone south, but everything else is still just dandy,
    > > > > perhaps? Seems unlikely, but "unlikely" only means "I ain't seen it
    > > > > before".
    > > > >
    > > > > Wish I could convince the beast to install to and/or boot from the
    > > > > external drive that hangs off the USB card, but nothing I've tried has
    > > > > managed to make that happen, and nothing I can find online suggests that
    > > > > it's even possible.
    > > >
    > > > Intel Macs can boot off USB. PPCs cannot.

    > >
    > > Some PPCs can, at least with late enough versions of Mac OS X. My
    > > PowerMac G4 QuickSilver 2002 can boot from USB using Mac OS X 10.4.11. I
    > > remember reading somewhere that this started working about 10.4.6.
    > >
    > > I haven't done a wide enough range of tests to determine the precise
    > > version, nor whether it applies to all models or only some models.

    >
    > Strange. My Quicksilver can boot OS 9 but not anything from USB. None
    > of the USB sticks are recognized when I boot with the Option key
    > depressed. Nor does the Startup Disk system preference recognized a
    > disk image of 10.4's install disk that I dd-'d to a USB stick.
    >
    > So what are you doing to get your system to boot from USB?


    I have a partitioned hard drive with Firewire 800 and USB 2.0
    interfaces, using an Oxford chipset. It has 10.5 on one partition, and
    10.4.8 on another, and is partitioned using Apple Partition Map, so is
    compatible with PowerPC Macs for booting.

    (Of course the first USB 2.0 cable I tried turned out to be faulty. Five
    minutes later... One partition on my USB/Firewire hard drive seems to
    have got corrupted between connecting to 10.6.8 on my MacBook Pro and
    10.4.11 on my PowerMac G4. One reconnect to Firewire and DiskWarrior run
    later...)

    Using the Boot Manager (Option key at startup) on my PowerMac G4:

    1. Connected via Firewire 400, both partitions are offered for boot. I
    didn't bother trying to boot from them.

    2. Connected via USB 2.0 (add-on PCI card), both partitions are offered
    for boot.

    I can boot from the Leopard partition, but seemed a little sluggish
    getting from the grey Apple logo to the spinning pinwheel appearing,
    afterwards booted fine.

    The Tiger partition is not booting, via either USB or Firewire. I think
    whatever corrupted the file system did some serious damage and
    DiskWarrior wasn't able to recover some essential files. I don't have
    another installed 10.4.x system on an external hard drive to test
    conveniently, and I can't be bothered reinstalling that system right
    now.

    3. Connected via USB 1.1 (built-in port), both partitions are offered
    for boot.

    Booting from Leopard. About five minutes later, system is up and
    running.

    4. Connected my external Pioneer DVD/CD writer (in generic enclosure,
    also has Oxford chipset) via USB 2.0 (add-on PCI card), with Mac OS X
    10.4.6 install DVD. Appears as an option in the Boot Manager.

    Boots fine.

    I haven't bothered trying the 10.4.6 CD via USB 1.1 as it would be
    horribly slow. Based on evidence of Leopard booting from hard drive via
    USB 1.1, it should work.

    5. Same DVD/CD writer via USB 2.0, this time with Mac OS X 10.4 install
    DVD. Appears as an option in the Boot Manager.

    Boots fine. OK, now I'm curious, as that is an earlier system than I
    expected would work.

    6. Same DVD/CD writer via USB 2.0, this time with Mac OS X 10.3.2
    install CD.

    Gets as far as grey screen with Apple logo and spinning pinwheel, then
    stops accessing the CD. No further progress. Verbose mode says it is
    waiting on the device "/pci@f2000000/usb@14/disk@2:2,\mach_kernel". I
    expect that 10.3.2's USB reinitialization during startup has kicked the
    startup drive out of its previous location in the device tree and it
    can't get any further.

    Didn't bother trying 10.3.2 via a built-in USB 1.1 port as I don't
    expect that to work either.


    Conclusion:

    My PowerMac G4 (QuickSilver 2002) offers USB boot devices in the Boot
    Manager, and is able to boot from Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 (but not
    10.3.2), using either a built-in USB port or an EHCI USB 2.0 card, at
    least in the case where the external drive has an Oxford chipset.

    I'd have to do something like copy the 10.4 installer to a USB flash
    drive to see whether the Oxford chipset is a factor. I don't have any
    spare 8 GB+ USB flash drives at the moment.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, May 6, 2012
    #7
  8. In article <1kjonlc.102hq6u1swql9zN%>,
    (David Empson) wrote:

    > Michael Vilain <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <1kjna8o.1th6uz21d0wowN%>,
    > > (David Empson) wrote:
    > >
    > > > Michael Vilain <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > In article <jo1cu1$484$>, Don Bruder <>
    > > > > wrote:
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > [...]
    > > >
    > > > > > The part I don't get is the fact that it boots fine in safe mode, or
    > > > > > from the DVD. It isn't until after I've done an install, and try to
    > > > > > fire
    > > > > > up "normally" from whichever drive I just installed to that it
    > > > > > panics.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > ATA Controller gone south, but everything else is still just dandy,
    > > > > > perhaps? Seems unlikely, but "unlikely" only means "I ain't seen it
    > > > > > before".
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Wish I could convince the beast to install to and/or boot from the
    > > > > > external drive that hangs off the USB card, but nothing I've tried
    > > > > > has
    > > > > > managed to make that happen, and nothing I can find online suggests
    > > > > > that
    > > > > > it's even possible.
    > > > >
    > > > > Intel Macs can boot off USB. PPCs cannot.
    > > >
    > > > Some PPCs can, at least with late enough versions of Mac OS X. My
    > > > PowerMac G4 QuickSilver 2002 can boot from USB using Mac OS X 10.4.11. I
    > > > remember reading somewhere that this started working about 10.4.6.
    > > >
    > > > I haven't done a wide enough range of tests to determine the precise
    > > > version, nor whether it applies to all models or only some models.

    > >
    > > Strange. My Quicksilver can boot OS 9 but not anything from USB. None
    > > of the USB sticks are recognized when I boot with the Option key
    > > depressed. Nor does the Startup Disk system preference recognized a
    > > disk image of 10.4's install disk that I dd-'d to a USB stick.
    > >
    > > So what are you doing to get your system to boot from USB?

    >
    > I have a partitioned hard drive with Firewire 800 and USB 2.0
    > interfaces, using an Oxford chipset. It has 10.5 on one partition, and
    > 10.4.8 on another, and is partitioned using Apple Partition Map, so is
    > compatible with PowerPC Macs for booting.
    >
    > (Of course the first USB 2.0 cable I tried turned out to be faulty. Five
    > minutes later... One partition on my USB/Firewire hard drive seems to
    > have got corrupted between connecting to 10.6.8 on my MacBook Pro and
    > 10.4.11 on my PowerMac G4. One reconnect to Firewire and DiskWarrior run
    > later...)
    >
    > Using the Boot Manager (Option key at startup) on my PowerMac G4:
    >
    > 1. Connected via Firewire 400, both partitions are offered for boot. I
    > didn't bother trying to boot from them.
    >
    > 2. Connected via USB 2.0 (add-on PCI card), both partitions are offered
    > for boot.
    >
    > I can boot from the Leopard partition, but seemed a little sluggish
    > getting from the grey Apple logo to the spinning pinwheel appearing,
    > afterwards booted fine.
    >
    > The Tiger partition is not booting, via either USB or Firewire. I think
    > whatever corrupted the file system did some serious damage and
    > DiskWarrior wasn't able to recover some essential files. I don't have
    > another installed 10.4.x system on an external hard drive to test
    > conveniently, and I can't be bothered reinstalling that system right
    > now.
    >
    > 3. Connected via USB 1.1 (built-in port), both partitions are offered
    > for boot.
    >
    > Booting from Leopard. About five minutes later, system is up and
    > running.
    >
    > 4. Connected my external Pioneer DVD/CD writer (in generic enclosure,
    > also has Oxford chipset) via USB 2.0 (add-on PCI card), with Mac OS X
    > 10.4.6 install DVD. Appears as an option in the Boot Manager.
    >
    > Boots fine.
    >
    > I haven't bothered trying the 10.4.6 CD via USB 1.1 as it would be
    > horribly slow. Based on evidence of Leopard booting from hard drive via
    > USB 1.1, it should work.
    >
    > 5. Same DVD/CD writer via USB 2.0, this time with Mac OS X 10.4 install
    > DVD. Appears as an option in the Boot Manager.
    >
    > Boots fine. OK, now I'm curious, as that is an earlier system than I
    > expected would work.
    >
    > 6. Same DVD/CD writer via USB 2.0, this time with Mac OS X 10.3.2
    > install CD.
    >
    > Gets as far as grey screen with Apple logo and spinning pinwheel, then
    > stops accessing the CD. No further progress. Verbose mode says it is
    > waiting on the device "/pci@f2000000/usb@14/disk@2:2,\mach_kernel". I
    > expect that 10.3.2's USB reinitialization during startup has kicked the
    > startup drive out of its previous location in the device tree and it
    > can't get any further.
    >
    > Didn't bother trying 10.3.2 via a built-in USB 1.1 port as I don't
    > expect that to work either.
    >
    >
    > Conclusion:
    >
    > My PowerMac G4 (QuickSilver 2002) offers USB boot devices in the Boot
    > Manager, and is able to boot from Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 (but not
    > 10.3.2), using either a built-in USB port or an EHCI USB 2.0 card, at
    > least in the case where the external drive has an Oxford chipset.
    >
    > I'd have to do something like copy the 10.4 installer to a USB flash
    > drive to see whether the Oxford chipset is a factor. I don't have any
    > spare 8 GB+ USB flash drives at the moment.


    This isn't what I saw at all. I had 3 Belkin USB-2 cards and it never
    presented a USB drive as bootable on any of them. My Quicksliver 2002
    had the ATA HW mod that allowed disks > 137GB and only FW400. The
    Sonnet FW800 I bought from OWC didn't work at all so I sent it back.

    I guess "It's a mystery" is the answer here.

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
    [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]
     
    Michael Vilain, May 6, 2012
    #8
  9. Don Bruder

    David Empson Guest

    Michael Vilain <> wrote:

    > In article <1kjonlc.102hq6u1swql9zN%>,
    > (David Empson) wrote:
    >


    [...]

    > > Conclusion:
    > >
    > > My PowerMac G4 (QuickSilver 2002) offers USB boot devices in the Boot
    > > Manager, and is able to boot from Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 (but not
    > > 10.3.2), using either a built-in USB port or an EHCI USB 2.0 card, at
    > > least in the case where the external drive has an Oxford chipset.
    > >
    > > I'd have to do something like copy the 10.4 installer to a USB flash
    > > drive to see whether the Oxford chipset is a factor. I don't have any
    > > spare 8 GB+ USB flash drives at the moment.

    >
    > This isn't what I saw at all. I had 3 Belkin USB-2 cards and it never
    > presented a USB drive as bootable on any of them.


    Have you tried a built-in USB 1.1 port? The Belkin cards might not be
    compatible with the boot manager for some reason. My USB 2.0 card is a
    generic Taiwanese one (which causes problems with deep sleep if I have
    certain devices plugged into it, so I normally only use it on a
    temporary basis).

    I don't have the computer handy to check right now, but perhaps we have
    different firmware revisions, which might explain the USB booting
    behaviour?

    > My Quicksliver 2002 had the ATA HW mod that allowed disks > 137GB and only
    > FW400.


    What ATA HW mod is that?

    My QuickSilver 2002 (serial number puts it as an early one, manufactured
    in week 4 of 2002) supported > 137 GB ATA drives when I got it.

    I did buy the computer second hand a few years later, but I doubt the
    previous owner had modified anything, as it had its original 80 GB hard
    drive, no second drive and wasn't being used for anything involving a
    lot of data. I added a 320 GB ATA drive in the second bay. (The
    QuickSilver had been in a climate controlled machine room, so very nice
    condition. Also a top-end model with dual 1 GHz G4s, so officially
    supports Leopard, and I got it for a very good price.)

    According to Apple, models introduced from mid 2002 support >137 GB
    drives as a standard feature, but I got the impression based on my
    QS2002 (and what MacTracker says) that all QS2002s support >137 GB
    drives, and I've seen reports that some QS2001s which support this.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, May 7, 2012
    #9
  10. Don Bruder

    David Empson Guest

    David Empson <> wrote:

    > Michael Vilain <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <1kjonlc.102hq6u1swql9zN%>,
    > > (David Empson) wrote:
    > >

    >
    > [...]
    >
    > > > Conclusion:
    > > >
    > > > My PowerMac G4 (QuickSilver 2002) offers USB boot devices in the Boot
    > > > Manager, and is able to boot from Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 (but not
    > > > 10.3.2), using either a built-in USB port or an EHCI USB 2.0 card, at
    > > > least in the case where the external drive has an Oxford chipset.
    > > >
    > > > I'd have to do something like copy the 10.4 installer to a USB flash
    > > > drive to see whether the Oxford chipset is a factor. I don't have any
    > > > spare 8 GB+ USB flash drives at the moment.

    > >
    > > This isn't what I saw at all. I had 3 Belkin USB-2 cards and it never
    > > presented a USB drive as bootable on any of them.

    >
    > Have you tried a built-in USB 1.1 port? The Belkin cards might not be
    > compatible with the boot manager for some reason. My USB 2.0 card is a
    > generic Taiwanese one (which causes problems with deep sleep if I have
    > certain devices plugged into it, so I normally only use it on a
    > temporary basis).
    >
    > I don't have the computer handy to check right now, but perhaps we have
    > different firmware revisions, which might explain the USB booting
    > behaviour?


    For reference, my QuickSilver 2002 has Boot ROM Version 4.3.3f2.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, May 8, 2012
    #10
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