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Upgrading a Thinkpad harddisk is not easy?

Discussion in 'IBM Thinkpad' started by noname, Mar 1, 2005.

  1. noname

    noname Guest

    Hello,

    Recently there was a thread about backingup and restoring the newer
    harddisks containing the Hidden Protected Area with Symantec ghost.
    Unfortunately that information probably isn't complete when using the
    ghost images to restore all data and the hpa on a larger harddisk.

    At least in my case, after restoring the complete diskimage using ghost
    -ib and setting the HPA bios setting to normal, the Thinkpad R40e only
    shows a blinking cursor when trying to boot to XP and does not show the
    Access IBM gui when hitting the Access IBM button on system boot.

    Any sugestions?

    S.
     
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  2. Jim Walker

    Jim Walker Guest

    I have cloned my HD using Ghost 2003 with no problem even though the two HDs
    were of different sizes. The clone booted normally.


    --
    Jim Walker
    Northern Virginia

    "noname" <> wrote in message
    news:4223d330$0$157$4all.nl...
    > Hello,
    >
    > Recently there was a thread about backingup and restoring the newer
    > harddisks containing the Hidden Protected Area with Symantec ghost.
    > Unfortunately that information probably isn't complete when using the
    > ghost images to restore all data and the hpa on a larger harddisk.
    >
    > At least in my case, after restoring the complete diskimage using
    > ghost -ib and setting the HPA bios setting to normal, the Thinkpad R40e
    > only shows a blinking cursor when trying to boot to XP and does not show
    > the Access IBM gui when hitting the Access IBM button on system boot.
    >
    > Any sugestions?
    >
    > S.
     
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  3. noname

    noname Guest

    Jim Walker wrote:

    > I have cloned my HD using Ghost 2003 with no problem even though the two HDs
    > were of different sizes. The clone booted normally.
    >
    >


    Did you use ghost with the -IB switch when creating the image and
    restoring the image to the new HD? Any other switches?

    This is what I did:
    - disabled the HPA in bios
    - attached the harddisk (30GB)to a pc
    - ghost -IB to creage an image
    - attached the new HD to the pc
    - ghost -IB to restore the image to the larger (80GB) HD
    - placed the new HD in the R40e
    - set HPA to normal in bios
    - boot

    S.
     
  4. Jim Walker

    Jim Walker Guest

    I backed up my HD differently than you. I did nothing to the BIOS and don't
    know what an -IB switch is. I found what worked for me was mounting the new
    HD internally instead of a USB connection. I tried numerous times to image
    or clone with a USB connection but could not get a bootable HD. If you
    aren't mounting the new HD internally now, you can get a HD adapter for your
    computer so you can mount it in your CD or floppy bay. Tell Ghost to clone
    the HD and the rest is automatic and it should work. This is a very
    reliable way to go with very few pitfalls.


    --
    Jim Walker
    Northern Virginia

    "noname" <> wrote in message
    news:422444b2$0$18456$4all.nl...
    > Jim Walker wrote:
    >
    >> I have cloned my HD using Ghost 2003 with no problem even though the two
    >> HDs were of different sizes. The clone booted normally.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Did you use ghost with the -IB switch when creating the image and
    > restoring the image to the new HD? Any other switches?
    >
    > This is what I did:
    > - disabled the HPA in bios
    > - attached the harddisk (30GB)to a pc
    > - ghost -IB to creage an image
    > - attached the new HD to the pc
    > - ghost -IB to restore the image to the larger (80GB) HD
    > - placed the new HD in the R40e
    > - set HPA to normal in bios
    > - boot
    >
    > S.
     
  5. tempest

    tempest Guest

    I used Ghost 9.0, on my A21p Thinkpad, external usb enclosure. Tried it many
    times, 12 days to be specific, and never was able to boot from new hard
    drive. Should have just done a clean install and saved lots of time.
    Symantec's tech. support ( from India only), kept telling me to do this and
    that, and never worked. I handled my old hard drive so many times, that it
    finally failled on me,, its now a paper weight on my desk.
    Be very careful handling laptop's hard drives! Make back-ups before
    anything.
    Plus, Ghost did not work for me, using the drive copy, nor using the back-up
    restore method option.
    Someone mentioned Acronis 8.0,,, hummmm,, will look into it.


    "RWM" <> wrote in message news:...
    >I agree it "should work", but it didn't work for me with Ghost 9.0 or Drive
    >Image 3.0 to an external USB drive.
    >
    > Only solution was to use Acronis 8.0, which worked fine first time --
    > "no muss, no fuss".
    >
    > - RWM
    >
    >
    >
    > Jim Walker wrote:
    >
    >>I backed up my HD differently than you. I did nothing to the BIOS and
    >>don't know what an -IB switch is. I found what worked for me was mounting
    >>the new HD internally instead of a USB connection. I tried numerous times
    >>to image or clone with a USB connection but could not get a bootable HD.
    >>If you aren't mounting the new HD internally now, you can get a HD adapter
    >>for your computer so you can mount it in your CD or floppy bay. Tell
    >>Ghost to clone the HD and the rest is automatic and it should work. This
    >>is a very reliable way to go with very few pitfalls.
    >>
     
  6. Charles

    Charles Guest

    tempest wrote:

    > I used Ghost 9.0, on my A21p Thinkpad, external usb enclosure. Tried it many
    > times, 12 days to be specific, and never was able to boot from new hard
    > drive.
    >
    > Plus, Ghost did not work for me, using the drive copy, nor using the back-up
    > restore method option.


    tempest, et.al.,
    The problem was probably the USB. When you write to any USB device, you
    are not writing directly to the memory. You are conversing with the USB
    operating system, which then writes to the memory.

    I am sorry Ghost did not work for you. It has worked wonderfully for me every
    time I have used it.

    I have not tried to clone the HD in my TP R40 laptop because there is (almost)
    no place to hand the second HD. And even if I surmounted that problem, where
    could I stick the floppy that holds Ghost? (An R40 has no floppy drive. )
    My present plan is to (1) buy an adapter; (2) move the laptop HD to my desktop
    box; and (3) clone it there.

    HTH,
    Charles
     
  7. tempest

    tempest Guest

    Ghost 9.0 uses a bootup CD-rom and not a floppy, which boots in Ghost's
    recovery Environment, which should make you restore a backed-up image to
    your hard drive. I'm sure your R40 has a CD rom.
    You dont need to buy an adapter ( 40pin to 44 pin IDE) you can find tons of
    them on Ebay. You could buy an 2.5" hard drive enclosure, works with your
    USB port. Automatically you are adding a second hard drive to your laptop.
    Thats where you can try the cloning, without having to remove your OEM hard
    drive from the laptop.
    Better yet, if i am not mistaking, Ghost Recovery Environment comes with
    network support, so you can recover an image which is stored on another
    computer on your network.
    Good luck.
    "RWM" <> wrote in message news:...
    >
    >
    > Charles wrote:
    >
    >>tempest wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I used Ghost 9.0, on my A21p Thinkpad, external usb enclosure. Tried it
    >>>many
    >>>times, 12 days to be specific, and never was able to boot from new hard
    >>>drive.
    >>>
    >>>Plus, Ghost did not work for me, using the drive copy, nor using the
    >>>back-up
    >>>restore method option.
    >>>

    >>
    >>tempest, et.al.,
    >>The problem was probably the USB. When you write to any USB device, you
    >>are not writing directly to the memory. You are conversing with the USB
    >>operating system, which then writes to the memory.
    >>
    >>I am sorry Ghost did not work for you. It has worked wonderfully for me
    >>every
    >>time I have used it.
    >>
    >>I have not tried to clone the HD in my TP R40 laptop because there is
    >>(almost)
    >>no place to hand the second HD. And even if I surmounted that problem,
    >>where
    >>could I stick the floppy that holds Ghost? (An R40 has no floppy drive. )
    >>My present plan is to (1) buy an adapter; (2) move the laptop HD to my
    >>desktop
    >>box; and (3) clone it there.
    >>
    >>HTH,
    >>Charles
    >>

    >
    > It's not the USB interface, it's the imaging software.
    > Cloning attempts to a USB drive that did not work (after several attempts)
    > with Ghost 9.0 and Drive Image 3.0, worked first and subsequent times with
    > Acronis 8.0.
    > According to your comments, you apparently haven't used (or even tried?)
    > an external USB drive. Your R40 has a USB port, right?
     
  8. noname

    noname Guest

    Jim Walker wrote:
    > I backed up my HD differently than you. I did nothing to the BIOS and don't
    > know what an -IB switch is. I found what worked for me was mounting the new
    > HD internally instead of a USB connection. I tried numerous times to image
    > or clone with a USB connection but could not get a bootable HD. If you
    > aren't mounting the new HD internally now, you can get a HD adapter for your
    > computer so you can mount it in your CD or floppy bay. Tell Ghost to clone
    > the HD and the rest is automatic and it should work. This is a very
    > reliable way to go with very few pitfalls.
    >
    >


    I used a HD adapter to connect it to a pc.
    I normaly would use the ultrabay to clone. Problem is the R40e has a
    fixed dvd/cd-rw player.
    I can try to do the trick on a R40 with the ultrabay adapter, but then I
    will have to use an external drive to boot and clone.
    At this point it is to much work.
    I already orderd the system recovery CD.

    According to IBM the -IB switch must be used since the bootsector is
    larger then normal. I found out this is at least when the optional
    recovery software is used.

    Reconfiguring the bios is not always needed, since some software can
    recognize the hidden partition even when the disk reports to be smaller
    then the startpoint of the HPA.
    S.
     
  9. dg1261

    dg1261 Guest

    "noname" <> wrote:
    > This is what I did:
    > - disabled the HPA in bios
    > - attached the harddisk (30GB)to a pc
    > - ghost -IB to creage an image
    > - attached the new HD to the pc
    > - ghost -IB to restore the image to the larger (80GB) HD
    > - placed the new HD in the R40e
    > - set HPA to normal in bios
    > - boot


    I've only tried it a few times, but I've never been able to successfully
    clone a Thinkpad HD by mounting it in a desktop. When the drive is plugged
    into a PC (using a 2.5-to-3.5 adapter), I've found the PC detects the drive
    parameters differently than the Thinkpad. My PCs would all see the drive
    with either 254 or 255 heads, but the Thinkpad bios sees it as 240 heads.
    Therefore, Ghost (or any other utility) is working with the wrong drive
    geometry than what the Thinkpad will eventually try to use. Note the
    problem is not with the drive, it's with the Thinkpad bios--put the same
    drive in most desktops or other laptops and they usually autodetect it the
    same way, but the Thinkpad will see it differently.

    BTW, Alan Martinez has already given you the proper way of transferring the
    HPA. It ain't easy, but I've done it that way on several R40's.
     
  10. noname

    noname Guest

    Alan K. Martinez wrote:


    > If you have a ThinkPad with the HPA intact, go to your system restore
    > options when you boot up. On the T40, I had to hit the blue Access IBM
    > button while the system was booting up to ..... snip


    Thank you Alan!
    Before trying the restore cd I'll try this solution.

    IBM support never mentioned this 'official' solution when I asked them
    if there was another solution to upgrade the HD besides using software
    like ghost. I guess they just want to sell the recovery cd.

    S.
     
  11. noname

    noname Guest

    Alan K. Martinez wrote:


    > If you have a ThinkPad with the HPA intact, go to your system restore
    > options when you boot up. On the T40, I had to hit the blue Access IBM
    > button while the system was booting up to ..... snip


    Thank you Alan!
    Before trying the restore cd I'll try this solution.

    IBM support never mentioned this 'official' solution when I asked them
    if there was another solution to upgrade the HD besides using software
    like ghost. I guess they just want to sell the recovery cd.

    S.
     
  12. noname

    noname Guest

    dg1261 wrote:

    > Note the
    > problem is not with the drive, it's with the Thinkpad bios--put the same
    > drive in most desktops or other laptops and they usually autodetect it the
    > same way, but the Thinkpad will see it differently.
    >


    Is this also when in the bios the HPA is set disabled (not hidden)?

    It sounds strange the problem is the bios. I wonder what the BIOS will
    see when using non-standard travelstar/hitachi HDs.

    > BTW, Alan Martinez has already given you the proper way of transferring the
    > HPA. It ain't easy, but I've done it that way on several R40's.
    >
    >


    Thank you for mentioning this.
    S.
     
  13. dg1261

    dg1261 Guest

    "noname" <> wrote:
    > > Note the problem is not with the drive, it's with the Thinkpad
    > > bios--put the same drive in most desktops or other laptops
    > > and they usually autodetect it the same way, but the Thinkpad
    > > will see it differently.

    >
    > Is this also when in the bios the HPA is set disabled (not hidden)?
    >
    > It sounds strange the problem is the bios. I wonder what the
    > BIOS will see when using non-standard travelstar/hitachi HDs.


    To give you a real example, I have in my hands a new Fujitsu 60GB laptop
    drive. I just connected it (with 2.3-to-3.5 adapter) to an old IBM Aptiva
    desktop, a Dell Dimension desktop, a Dell Latitude laptop, and an IBM R40.
    The Aptiva, Dimension, and Latitude all autodetected it as cyl/heads/sectors
    (CHS) = 7296/255/63 (117,210,240 total sectors). The R40 detected it as CHS
    = 7752/240/63 (117,210,240 total sectors). I've observed this behavior to
    be consistent with Fujitsu, Toshiba, and IBM/Hitachi laptop drives--the R40
    (as well as a T41 and T42 I've tested) always autodetect them with 240 heads
    while most other computers see 255 heads.

    Understand, though, that this isn't cause for concern--CHS are fictitious
    numbers, anyway (since the advent of all but the earliest IDE drives), so it
    really doesn't matter how the bios wants to see the geometry, as long as the
    computer is consistent with itself. You only have a problem when you move
    the drive between computers that choose to see the geometry differently,
    because data sectors laid down under one geometry might appear in the wrong
    places under different geometry.

    Enabling/disabling HPA security made no difference on the Fujitsu above
    because it was new--there was no HPA yet so the "HPA size" was zero. On a
    drive with a HPA, though, it changes the cylinder count. The 20GB drive
    currently in my R40 shows CHS 2164/240/63 with HPA hidden, and CHS
    2583/240/63 with the HPA exposed. Hiding the HPA makes the drive pretend
    it's smaller (with fewer cylinders), as though the block of cylinders at the
    end of the disk doesn't even exist. Incidentally, that's why the usual disk
    utilities like PartitionMagic, Ghost, and DriveImage won't even see the HPA
    if hidden--the disk itself is not 'fessing up to the utils that the cyls are
    even there.


    > > BTW, Alan Martinez has already given you the proper way of
    > > transferring the HPA. It ain't easy, but I've done it that way on
    > > several R40's.

    >
    > Thank you for mentioning this.


    As Alan mentioned, the recovery partition in the HPA contains the
    command-line utils that you use to backup/restore the HPA. Fwbackup.exe
    breaks the HPA image into a group of ordinary files, which you copy to the
    new drive, then use fwrestor.exe to recreate the HPA from those files. What
    makes this procedure abnormally difficult is that to get to the utils you
    have to drop into a DOS environment (MS-DOS 4.1, aka Win98se DOS, on my
    R40). That means you don't have support for network drives, USB drives,
    can't write to the R40's main NTFS partition, and can't write to CDR--so
    where do you put those nifty files fwbackup.exe can create? It sounds like
    Alan used his ingenuity to create his own custom boot floppy with support
    for his USB drive, then had fwbackup write to the USB drive. I used a
    different approach--I used PartitionMagic to temporarily shrink the main
    NTFS system partition, created a new FAT32 partition, had fwbackup write
    there (DOS 4.1 can write to FAT32), booted back into XP and burned those
    files to CDR, swapped in the new drive, booted a Win98 boot floppy (which
    has CD support), and had fwrestor.exe read from the CDRs.

    This whole HPA scheme wasn't thoroughly thought out--not IBM's finest hour,
    so it's probably not surprising their helpdesk techs didn't admit to it.
    It's much easier to tell people to just get the CDs IBM should have given
    you in the first place.
     
  14. Guest

    dg1261 said:
    > you have to drop into a DOS environment (MS-DOS 4.1, aka
    > Win98se DOS, on my R40). That means you don't have support
    > for network drives, USB drives, can't write to the R40's main NTFS
    > partition, and can't write to CDR--so where do you put those nifty
    > files fwbackup.exe can create?


    http://www.datapol.de/dpe/freeware/

    NTFS4DOS is freeware for personal use, license for 100 users was very
    reasonable (about $35 US, IIRC), and will allow you to read/write to
    NTFS from DOS. Worth checking out.
     
  15. tempest

    tempest Guest

    I would like to have your list of steps, if possible,


    thanks,

    "Alan K. Martinez" <> wrote in message
    news:42265ef9$1_2@127.0.0.1...
    >I was wondering if I could get more information.
    >
    > Are you guys just trying to clone a drive and get it to boot using Ghost?
    > Or are you trying to ALSO duplicate the HPA (Hidden Protected Area).
    > Because I think there might be two issues here.
    >
    > When I first received my T40 about 2 years ago, wanted to upgrade my 30Gb
    > drive to an 80Gb, but also wanted to retain the HPA. The version of Ghost
    > that came with System Works Pro 2003 did not get the HPA. I had no
    > problem getting the drive to duplicate the rest of the information and
    > boot properly.
    >
    > I had to use the backup and restore utility that's contained in the HPA in
    > order to backup the HPA to a USB drive and restore it back to the 80Gb
    > drive.
    >
    > If you have a ThinkPad with the HPA intact, go to your system restore
    > options when you boot up. On the T40, I had to hit the blue Access IBM
    > button while the system was booting up to get to the BIOS options. There
    > is a menu function/icon to Restore System Settings. This brought me to a
    > DOS looking utility that prompted me to accept licenses and stuff. At
    > this utility, I was able to hit F3 which brought me to a DOS prompt.
    >
    > At this DOS prompt you can access a drive letter and directory (I'll have
    > to look it up again because I don't remember, if you need it) to get to 2
    > files. I think they were called fwbackup.exe and fwrestore.exe. You can
    > execute an fwbackup /? to get help to use some switched if you want to
    > breakup the HPA backup into small chunks of files that would fit onto a cd
    > and stuff. You can specify what drive to back it up to and stuff....
    >
    > Copy those two files to a boot disk. Boot with that disk and backup your
    > HPA. Then use the appropriate file to restore it to the new drive.
    >
    > Once you've done that, go back and set the HPA to protected. Then you
    > should be able to use Ghost to finish the rest of the work.
    >
    > My steps and process was a little more detailed and I had a document typed
    > up for myself for a just in case moment... if you need it let me know,
    > but I must warn you that my process involved another ThinkPad (570) with a
    > docking bay and ultradrive adapter to put the new HD in so I can restore
    > the HPA to it. Anyway, there might be other workarounds similar to what I
    > did...
    >
    > "tempest" <> wrote in message
    > news:xSpVd.37429$...
    >> Ghost 9.0 uses a bootup CD-rom and not a floppy, which boots in Ghost's
    >> recovery Environment, which should make you restore a backed-up image to
    >> your hard drive. I'm sure your R40 has a CD rom.
    >> You dont need to buy an adapter ( 40pin to 44 pin IDE) you can find tons
    >> of them on Ebay. You could buy an 2.5" hard drive enclosure, works with
    >> your USB port. Automatically you are adding a second hard drive to your
    >> laptop. Thats where you can try the cloning, without having to remove
    >> your OEM hard drive from the laptop.
    >> Better yet, if i am not mistaking, Ghost Recovery Environment comes with
    >> network support, so you can recover an image which is stored on another
    >> computer on your network.
    >> Good luck.
    >> "RWM" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Charles wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>tempest wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>I used Ghost 9.0, on my A21p Thinkpad, external usb enclosure. Tried it
    >>>>>many
    >>>>>times, 12 days to be specific, and never was able to boot from new hard
    >>>>>drive.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Plus, Ghost did not work for me, using the drive copy, nor using the
    >>>>>back-up
    >>>>>restore method option.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>tempest, et.al.,
    >>>>The problem was probably the USB. When you write to any USB device, you
    >>>>are not writing directly to the memory. You are conversing with the USB
    >>>>operating system, which then writes to the memory.
    >>>>
    >>>>I am sorry Ghost did not work for you. It has worked wonderfully for me
    >>>>every
    >>>>time I have used it.
    >>>>
    >>>>I have not tried to clone the HD in my TP R40 laptop because there is
    >>>>(almost)
    >>>>no place to hand the second HD. And even if I surmounted that problem,
    >>>>where
    >>>>could I stick the floppy that holds Ghost? (An R40 has no floppy
    >>>>drive. )
    >>>>My present plan is to (1) buy an adapter; (2) move the laptop HD to my
    >>>>desktop
    >>>>box; and (3) clone it there.
    >>>>
    >>>>HTH,
    >>>>Charles
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> It's not the USB interface, it's the imaging software.
    >>> Cloning attempts to a USB drive that did not work (after several
    >>> attempts) with Ghost 9.0 and Drive Image 3.0, worked first and
    >>> subsequent times with Acronis 8.0.
    >>> According to your comments, you apparently haven't used (or even tried?)
    >>> an external USB drive. Your R40 has a USB port, right?

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >
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  16. noname

    noname Guest

    Alan K. Martinez wrote:
    > Actually, if you purchased the computer new, I believe by law they have to
    > provide the recovery CD's for free. You just have to ask for them. I
    > called about a week after I got my T40 and asked for the recovery CD's and I
    > had to ask for the Lotus Notes and SmartSuite cd's. They just took my name,
    > number, and T40 serial numbers down and mailed them to me... got them
    > without hassle.


    When I wanted to buy the recovery set the warranty on the R40e had
    expired by exactly 2 days. IBM was not cooperative to give the recovery
    cd, not even to sell them. I had to contact my local IBM dealer, they
    are now trying to get the disks for me.


    > And, the recovery CD's that they send will just image your hard drive with
    > the factory defaults. But NOT THE HPA. I learned this hard way.
    >


    Oh, nice....... :-(
    I really start disliking this 'fantastic' HPA solution of IBM.
    I'm glad I am not a 'normal' user trying to upgrade the HD.

    S.
     
  17. MAG

    MAG Guest

    In article <422b3747$1_2@127.0.0.1>, says...
    > Well I can't speak or know of other experiences regarding out of warranty
    > requests for the discs. I had asked for my discs within the first 2 weeks
    > of receiving my T40.
    >
    > And except for the questions regarding my serial number and where to ship
    > the discs they didn't give me any hassle. They just said expect it within 7
    > to 10 business days. If I remember correctly I received it in about 4 days.


    The new policy is that they only send out the CDs free if your HD
    crashes or there is a similar inability to create the recovery CDs with
    the built-in utility. Otherwise they charge for then now.

    I got a free set because there was a problem with my system and the CD
    creator wouldn't work; it gave an "internal error."

    Marc
     
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