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USB Keyboard Sun Fire V120

Discussion in 'Sun Hardware' started by DoN. Nichols, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. DoN. Nichols

    DoN. Nichols Guest

    Well ... time to ask a question here, instead of answering them.

    I recently got a Sun Fire V120, and figured out how to use the
    LOM to configure it (and installed OpenBSD 4.8 FWIW).

    It came without a framebuffer, so I installed one of the Sun
    modified Radeon ones.

    Now comes the problem. I plugged in a keyboard and mouse from a
    convenient location via a single cable and a USB hub.

    When booting, the (LCD) monitor would recognize the signal from
    the computer for a moment, and then blank after displaying "no signal".
    And then the computer would switch back to the LOM port for its console.

    I finally got it to work with a different Sun keyboard plugged
    into the '0' USB socket, and a Sun mouse plugged into the '1' USB
    socket.

    Playing around a bit more, I discovered that even with the
    original keyboard (which works fine with a Sun Fire 280R) alone on the
    USB hub, and the mouse which worked before still plugged into the '1'
    USB socket, I still got a series of complaints about "USB overrun" (I
    believe it was) during booting (actual prior to disk access).

    So -- the question is -- do *all* Sun Fire V120 machines behave
    the same (e.g. a hardware limitation), or is it perhaps a need for
    updating to a newer OBP version?

    I can't actually *find* the OBP version -- just the version for
    the LOM -- is OBP rolled into the LOM in this machine?

    I'm considering pulling the framebuffer back out and saving it
    for another system, as it will not be much use to me where I intend to
    install it. (I had intended to do the same with it as with a few other
    machines in that rack -- a single USB cable from each computer to plug
    into the hub at need, and leaving the hub connected to the keyboard and
    mouse (actually a Logitech Trackman, which I rather like with the Suns.)

    The other two computers which go through that hub at need are a
    Mac Mini and the Sun Fire 280R. There are also three other computers in
    that rack which have individual keyboards and mice plugged in to the old
    style Mini-Din connectors, and I am running out of places to stuff the
    keyboards. (At least not old enough to require the RJ-series connectors
    which the Sun 2/120 used for keyboard and mouse. :)

    I actually hope to use the SF-V120 to replace one of those older
    computers.

    So -- I'll have to loop through another system to the LOM port
    instead.

    Thanks,
    DoN.

    --
    Remove oil spill source from e-mail
    Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
    --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
     
    DoN. Nichols, Dec 14, 2010
    #1
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  2. DoN. Nichols <> wrote:

    [snip]

    Hi Don,

    I had one of the V100 servers several years back. Pretty much the same as
    the V120, but without the expansion capabilities. It was a good
    light-weight machine, with very low power consumption, but not really much
    in the way of processing power. I replaced it with a 280R, and was much
    happier, except on the power consumption. The 280R was quieter, though.

    So, as to your questions. I believe that the usb ports on the V120 are
    original (slow) usb only. This is likely to make them quite fussy on
    choice of keyboards. You might want to track down one of the original Sun
    usb keyboards, for best chance of it working.

    I have certainly seen referencve in Sun documentation to putting a PGX
    framebuffer into the V120, so it should be possible to make it work.

    That said, I really can't see much value in using it with the framebufffer.
    The machine is just far too noisy for you to ever want to sit beside it.
    Be brave and use the serial console for the initial configuration.

    I am not certain, but I have a feeling that the upgrade of the OBP and the
    LOM were bundled into one patch. The LOM upgrade happened at the Solaris
    prompt.



    --
    Dr Tristram J. Scott
    Energy Consultant
     
    Tristram Scott, Dec 15, 2010
    #2
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  3. DoN. Nichols

    DoN. Nichols Guest

    On 2010-12-15, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    > DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > Hi Don,
    >
    > I had one of the V100 servers several years back. Pretty much the same as
    > the V120, but without the expansion capabilities. It was a good
    > light-weight machine, with very low power consumption, but not really much
    > in the way of processing power. I replaced it with a 280R, and was much
    > happier, except on the power consumption. The 280R was quieter, though.


    I've got a couple of 280Rs -- as well as a Sun Blade 2000 and
    Sun Blade 1000 (all pretty much the same system card, but the 280R tends
    to not slow the fans once it is booted, so it is noisier than the Blade
    2000.

    > So, as to your questions. I believe that the usb ports on the V120 are
    > original (slow) usb only.


    Yes -- same as the built-in USB ports on the Sun Fire 280R and
    Sun Blade [12]000.

    > This is likely to make them quite fussy on
    > choice of keyboards. You might want to track down one of the original Sun
    > usb keyboards, for best chance of it working.


    I'm *using* original Sun USB keyboards. Either the real unix
    style (Control to the left of A), or word processing style (Shift lock
    to the left of A), and it works fine with either keyboard plugged into
    the USB ports directly on the computer. However, neither works (at
    boot) with the signal passing through a USB 2.0 hub. I get the
    following at boot (as seen from the LOM port):

    ======================================================================
    syncing disks... done
    |
    ERROR: USB data overrun

    ERROR: USB data overrun

    ERROR: USB data overrun

    ERROR: USB data overrun

    ERROR: USB data overrun

    ERROR: USB data overrun

    Sun Fire V120 (UltraSPARC-IIe 648MHz), No Keyboard
    OpenBoot 4.0, 1024 MB memory installed, Serial #54161030.
    Ethernet address 0:3:ba:3a:6e:86, Host ID: 833a6e86.
    ======================================================================

    Later experimentation shows that if I plug the hub and mouse
    (actually a Logitech Trackman trackball) into one port (without the
    keyboard), and a keyboard into the other port, it will see them when
    booting and work fine. I can then plug another keyboard into the hub,
    and unplug the original keyboard from the system's own USB port, and use
    it with no problems -- until the next reboot.

    > I have certainly seen referencve in Sun documentation to putting a PGX
    > framebuffer into the V120, so it should be possible to make it work.


    I've got the Raedon framebuffer (as modified by Sun) in there,
    and it works fine (if the system sees the keyboard directly connected on
    boot). I think that may be the PGX, but I can't read the barcode while
    it is in the running machine.

    O.K. I dug into the FEH and find that this framebuffer is the
    XVR-100 (Codename: Papaya) barcode 375-3126. (It came out of a damaged
    SB-2000, FWIW.)

    > That said, I really can't see much value in using it with the framebufffer.
    > The machine is just far too noisy for you to ever want to sit beside it.
    > Be brave and use the serial console for the initial configuration.


    I've done all that -- but it is not intended to be a desktop
    machine -- I use the SB-2000 for that. It is intended to live in a rack
    with several other machines, and each machine which uses USB keyboard
    and mouse (the SS-5s which I am replacing with the SF-V120 don't) will
    have a USB to mini-USB cable which can be plugged into the computer side
    of the hub, so I can use one keyboard and mouse for as many machines as
    possible. (The monitor is on a switchbox to select the framebuffer from
    the proper machine.) The low power consumption (relative to the SS-5)
    is one of the reasons for wanting this -- as well as the lower space
    consumed in the rack -- because there is also a fairly large LCD monitor
    in the rack and a shelf out front for the keyboard and mouse. The idea
    being that I will be able to access and control an individual machine
    even if the other machine which is providing the terminal emulation for
    the LOM port is also down.

    > I am not certain, but I have a feeling that the upgrade of the OBP and the
    > LOM were bundled into one patch. The LOM upgrade happened at the Solaris
    > prompt.


    That will be awkward if I manage to get the patch. That will
    mean that I'll have to shut the system down and swap in another drive to
    install Solaris 10 onto. I've currently got the system loaded with
    OpenBSD 4.8 as something which I can update in spite of Oracle taking
    over Sun and tightening things down. I'm a hobby user, and can't afford
    an Oracle service contract -- even if I had bought any of these
    computers new and thus had the needed paperwork.

    One other thought that a friend suggested which I have not yet
    been able to check out -- that perhaps an older USB 1.2 hub might work
    where the USB 2.0 does not. (The USB 2.0 hub with the Sun keyboard and
    the Logitech TrackMan *does* work with the Sun Fire 280R , but that is a
    newer machine, even if it is not using USB 2.0 built in.) It also works
    with a Mac Mini, FWIW. Obviously not with the two SS-5s, or with the
    Ultra-5 -- none of which use USB anyway. So -- the question is whether
    I can still find a USB 1.2 hub these days. :)

    Thanks,
    DoN.

    --
    Remove oil spill source from e-mail
    Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
    --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
     
    DoN. Nichols, Dec 16, 2010
    #3
  4. DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    > On 2010-12-15, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    >> DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    >>

    [snip]

    > The idea
    > being that I will be able to access and control an individual machine
    > even if the other machine which is providing the terminal emulation for
    > the LOM port is also down.


    In the absence of a terminal server, I usually take a punt on one of the
    other servers. If your issue is that the V120 is down, talk to it through
    the 280R via the serial line to the LOM. If the issue is that everything
    is down, all at once, make a journey. Servers in a rack do all lose power
    together, so they might well all be down at once. At least the 280R has an
    ethernet interface to its LOM. Another thing to use for this purpose is an
    old Cisco router. They tend to have serial ports (for modems) which can be
    convinced to talk to the LOM.



    >
    >> I am not certain, but I have a feeling that the upgrade of the OBP and the
    >> LOM were bundled into one patch. The LOM upgrade happened at the Solaris
    >> prompt.

    >
    > That will be awkward if I manage to get the patch. That will
    > mean that I'll have to shut the system down and swap in another drive to
    > install Solaris 10 onto. I've currently got the system loaded with
    > OpenBSD 4.8 as something which I can update in spite of Oracle taking
    > over Sun and tightening things down. I'm a hobby user, and can't afford
    > an Oracle service contract -- even if I had bought any of these
    > computers new and thus had the needed paperwork.


    It is less transparent than with Sun, but I think the firmware and security
    patches are still available without a contract. I believe that the latest
    firmware for the V120 is in 111991-07:

    111991|07|Nov/03/03| | | | |Unbundled|||Hardware/PROM: Netra T1 200 PROM
    upgrade patch

    It is intended to be applied from the Solaris prompt in single user mode.
    You should be able to boot from the installation CD, or over the net, and
    drop out to a shell to do the installation.

    To find out the PROM version you currently have, use the .version command at
    the OBP ok prompt. (Note the dot in .version.) 111991-07 will get you to
    this level:

    ok .version
    Firmware CORE Release 1.0.17 created 2003/10/6 17:9
    Release 4.0 Version 17 created 2003/10/06 17:10
    cPOST version 1.0.17 created 2003/10/6
    CORE 1.0.17 2003/10/06 17:09
    ok


    >
    > One other thought that a friend suggested which I have not yet
    > been able to check out -- that perhaps an older USB 1.2 hub might work
    > where the USB 2.0 does not.


    That sounds like some good advice.

    --
    Dr Tristram J. Scott
    Energy Consultant
     
    Tristram Scott, Dec 16, 2010
    #4
  5. DoN. Nichols

    DoN. Nichols Guest

    On 2010-12-16, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    > DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    >> On 2010-12-15, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    >>> DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    >>>

    > [snip]
    >
    >> The idea
    >> being that I will be able to access and control an individual machine
    >> even if the other machine which is providing the terminal emulation for
    >> the LOM port is also down.

    >
    > In the absence of a terminal server, I usually take a punt on one of the
    > other servers. If your issue is that the V120 is down, talk to it through
    > the 280R via the serial line to the LOM.


    Currently, I have it connected to a serial port on a SS-5 (no
    LOM there :). If I can get the SS-5 up, then I can talk to the LOM on
    the V120. (But -- I expect to retire both SS-5s and replace them both
    with SF-V120s.)

    > If the issue is that everything
    > is down, all at once, make a journey.


    Yep -- that rack is supported by an old 2KV 48V DC (e.g. 4
    Batteries) Ferrups by BEST. So is the other half-height rack with the
    other SF-280R in it. That 280R is up full time, while the one in the
    bottom of this rack is simply brought up to serve as a testbed and a
    place to migrate to if something dies in the currently active SF-280R.

    But the one of the 280R's serial ports is connected to the UPS
    to tell everyone when to shut down. :)

    The journey is only only across the room -- this is a hobby
    network, not a business activity. :)

    > Servers in a rack do all lose power
    > together, so they might well all be down at once.


    Very likely -- unless I shut one machine down for upgrades of
    software or hardware.

    > At least the 280R has an
    > ethernet interface to its LOM.


    Yes.

    > Another thing to use for this purpose is an
    > old Cisco router. They tend to have serial ports (for modems) which can be
    > convinced to talk to the LOM.


    Intersting. I've got a couple of retired ones around which I
    can re-configure at need and do what I want with them. The Cisco in
    service here is under the control of my ISP, and they want me to fill
    out and send them a form before they will give me the password -- and
    they try to send me the form as a Word document -- so it is too large to
    get past my spam/virus filtering. If I could just talk them into trying
    snail mail once. :)

    >
    >
    >>
    >>> I am not certain, but I have a feeling that the upgrade of the OBP and the
    >>> LOM were bundled into one patch. The LOM upgrade happened at the Solaris
    >>> prompt.

    >>
    >> That will be awkward if I manage to get the patch. That will
    >> mean that I'll have to shut the system down and swap in another drive to
    >> install Solaris 10 onto. I've currently got the system loaded with
    >> OpenBSD 4.8 as something which I can update in spite of Oracle taking
    >> over Sun and tightening things down. I'm a hobby user, and can't afford
    >> an Oracle service contract -- even if I had bought any of these
    >> computers new and thus had the needed paperwork.

    >
    > It is less transparent than with Sun, but I think the firmware and security
    > patches are still available without a contract. I believe that the latest
    > firmware for the V120 is in 111991-07:
    >
    > 111991|07|Nov/03/03| | | | |Unbundled|||Hardware/PROM: Netra T1 200 PROM
    > upgrade patch


    Got it! Thanks!

    > It is intended to be applied from the Solaris prompt in single user mode.
    > You should be able to boot from the installation CD, or over the net, and
    > drop out to a shell to do the installation.


    O.K. I think that I have an installation CD for Solaris 8 or
    perhaps 9. All my Solaris 10 ones are DVDs, and there is no DVD drive
    in the computer -- though I have some whose arms have been twisted to
    talk SCSI so I could use that as well. Easier than finding spare SCA
    interface drives large enough for Solaris 10, anyway. (I've *probably*
    got some on hand -- but the question is where. :)

    > To find out the PROM version you currently have, use the .version command at
    > the OBP ok prompt. (Note the dot in .version.) 111991-07 will get you to
    > this level:


    Managed to capture it via the LOM:


    ======================================================================
    Sun Fire V120 (UltraSPARC-IIe 648MHz), No Keyboard
    OpenBoot 4.0, 1024 MB memory installed, Serial #54161030.
    Ethernet address 0:3:ba:3a:6e:86, Host ID: 833a6e86.
    ======================================================================

    > ok .version
    > Firmware CORE Release 1.0.17 created 2003/10/6 17:9
    > Release 4.0 Version 17 created 2003/10/06 17:10
    > cPOST version 1.0.17 created 2003/10/6
    > CORE 1.0.17 2003/10/06 17:09
    > ok


    ======================================================================
    Firmware CORE Release 1.0.12 created 2002/1/8 13:0
    Release 4.0 Version 12 created 2002/01/08 13:01
    cPOST version 1.0.12 created 2002/1/8
    CORE 1.0.12 2002/01/08 13:00
    ======================================================================

    So -- I might as well upgrade.

    >>
    >> One other thought that a friend suggested which I have not yet
    >> been able to check out -- that perhaps an older USB 1.2 hub might work
    >> where the USB 2.0 does not.

    >
    > That sounds like some good advice.


    The problem is finding a 1.1 or 1.2 hub these days.

    However, I picked up an inexpensive four-port KVM by TrendNet,
    and *it* works to properly boot the system with keyboard, mouse, and
    video.

    Thanks,
    DoN.

    --
    Remove oil spill source from e-mail
    Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
    --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
     
    DoN. Nichols, Dec 17, 2010
    #5
  6. DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    > On 2010-12-16, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    >> DoN. Nichols <> wrote:


    [snip]

    >
    > But the one of the 280R's serial ports is connected to the UPS
    > to tell everyone when to shut down. :)


    I find the lack of serial ports to be more and more of a nuisance. Several
    of our newer x86 (e.g. x4100 M2 and x4200 M2) servers do not have any
    serial ports, just usb.

    >
    > The journey is only only across the room -- this is a hobby
    > network, not a business activity. :)


    That's all right then.

    >> Another thing to use for this purpose is an
    >> old Cisco router. They tend to have serial ports (for modems) which can be
    >> convinced to talk to the LOM.

    >
    > Intersting. I've got a couple of retired ones around which I
    > can re-configure at need and do what I want with them.


    One of the neat things with the Cisco routers is the ability to telnet
    _from_ the router. This alos includes talking via its serial ports, and
    even the serial management port, if you want.


    > The Cisco in
    > service here is under the control of my ISP, and they want me to fill
    > out and send them a form before they will give me the password -- and
    > they try to send me the form as a Word document -- so it is too large to
    > get past my spam/virus filtering. If I could just talk them into trying
    > snail mail once. :)


    Or make an exception for them in the spam filter.

    >
    > Got it! Thanks!


    Very good. I remember the same thing on my V100 took an age to apply, so
    do be patient with it.

    >
    >> It is intended to be applied from the Solaris prompt in single user mode.
    >> You should be able to boot from the installation CD, or over the net, and
    >> drop out to a shell to do the installation.

    >
    > O.K. I think that I have an installation CD for Solaris 8 or
    > perhaps 9. All my Solaris 10 ones are DVDs, and there is no DVD drive
    > in the computer -- though I have some whose arms have been twisted to
    > talk SCSI so I could use that as well. Easier than finding spare SCA
    > interface drives large enough for Solaris 10, anyway. (I've *probably*
    > got some on hand -- but the question is where. :)
    >


    The patch README claims it will work under Solaris 8 or 9, so that should
    be fine. If not, you might well find it simplest to set up a network
    install server for the Solaris 10 media. I have never had an easy time
    coming up with the correct OBP string for booting from an external CD/DVD
    drive. By comparison, the network installation is quite easy, and very
    well documented. And it often makes for a faster installation, too.

    --
    Dr Tristram J. Scott
    Energy Consultant
     
    Tristram Scott, Dec 17, 2010
    #6
  7. DoN. Nichols

    DoN. Nichols Guest

    On 2010-12-17, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    > DoN. Nichols <> wrote:
    >> On 2010-12-16, Tristram Scott <> wrote:
    >>> DoN. Nichols <> wrote:


    [ ... ]

    >>> Another thing to use for this purpose is an
    >>> old Cisco router. They tend to have serial ports (for modems) which can be
    >>> convinced to talk to the LOM.

    >>
    >> Intersting. I've got a couple of retired ones around which I
    >> can re-configure at need and do what I want with them.

    >
    > One of the neat things with the Cisco routers is the ability to telnet
    > _from_ the router. This alos includes talking via its serial ports, and
    > even the serial management port, if you want.


    At least on the ones which I can log into. And I don't think
    that I want my LOM accessible from the outside by the ISP (who is who
    has the passwords for the working Cisco. :)

    >
    >> The Cisco in
    >> service here is under the control of my ISP, and they want me to fill
    >> out and send them a form before they will give me the password -- and
    >> they try to send me the form as a Word document -- so it is too large to
    >> get past my spam/virus filtering. If I could just talk them into trying
    >> snail mail once. :)

    >
    > Or make an exception for them in the spam filter.


    It isn't truly a spam filter. It is the
    "/var/qmail/control/databytes" file in the qmail MTA which I use. It
    can't be made conditional on the IP or other origin -- It does not even
    get logged when an oversized e-mail is rejected. :)

    >>
    >> Got it! Thanks!

    >
    > Very good. I remember the same thing on my V100 took an age to apply, so
    > do be patient with it.


    O.K.

    >>
    >>> It is intended to be applied from the Solaris prompt in single user mode.
    >>> You should be able to boot from the installation CD, or over the net, and
    >>> drop out to a shell to do the installation.

    >>
    >> O.K. I think that I have an installation CD for Solaris 8 or
    >> perhaps 9. All my Solaris 10 ones are DVDs, and there is no DVD drive
    >> in the computer -- though I have some whose arms have been twisted to
    >> talk SCSI so I could use that as well. Easier than finding spare SCA
    >> interface drives large enough for Solaris 10, anyway. (I've *probably*
    >> got some on hand -- but the question is where. :)
    >>

    >
    > The patch README claims it will work under Solaris 8 or 9, so that should
    > be fine. If not, you might well find it simplest to set up a network
    > install server for the Solaris 10 media. I have never had an easy time
    > coming up with the correct OBP string for booting from an external CD/DVD
    > drive. By comparison, the network installation is quite easy, and very
    > well documented. And it often makes for a faster installation, too.


    Hmm I've got an external DVD-ROM included on my SB-2000. (It
    was originally the internal one, which has been replaced by an IDE DVD
    burner with an ACard bridge card to convert it to SCSI. To allow
    booting from the external CD-ROM, I've added this to the eeprom
    settings:

    ======================================================================
    use-nvramrc?=true
    nvramrc=devalias cdrom1 /pc1@8,700000/scsi@2,1/disk@6,0:f
    ======================================================================

    Having come up with that from the output of probe-scsi-all and comparing
    it to the default devalias for "cdrom".

    This is pretty much required when booting from the external
    CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, because if I just type the value into the
    devalias -- it will be flushed during the reset which is part of the
    boot command execution. :)

    I'll try the same on the SF-V120 and see how it goes. This will
    give me the ability to burn the patch onto a mini-CD-ROM and read it
    while the system is booted from the Solaris DVD-ROM.

    Thanks much,
    DoN.

    --
    Remove oil spill source from e-mail
    Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
    --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
     
    DoN. Nichols, Dec 17, 2010
    #7
  8. DoN. Nichols

    DoN. Nichols Guest

    On 2010-12-17, DoN. Nichols <> wrote:

    [ ... ]

    > Hmm I've got an external DVD-ROM included on my SB-2000. (It
    > was originally the internal one, which has been replaced by an IDE DVD
    > burner with an ACard bridge card to convert it to SCSI. To allow
    > booting from the external CD-ROM, I've added this to the eeprom
    > settings:
    >
    > ======================================================================
    > use-nvramrc?=true
    > nvramrc=devalias cdrom1 /pc1@8,700000/scsi@2,1/disk@6,0:f
    > ======================================================================
    >
    > Having come up with that from the output of probe-scsi-all and comparing
    > it to the default devalias for "cdrom".


    O.K. Here is what I needed in the SF-V120 to do the same:

    ======================================================================
    use-nvramrc?=true
    nvramrc=devalias cdrom1 /pci@1f,0/pci@1/scsi@8,1/disk@6,0:f
    ======================================================================

    assuming that the SCSI DVD-ROM drive is on SCSI ID 6 (as is common for
    CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs on Suns.

    > This is pretty much required when booting from the external
    > CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, because if I just type the value into the
    > devalias -- it will be flushed during the reset which is part of the
    > boot command execution. :)
    >
    > I'll try the same on the SF-V120 and see how it goes. This will
    > give me the ability to burn the patch onto a mini-CD-ROM and read it
    > while the system is booted from the Solaris DVD-ROM.


    The patch is done -- and I have a spare 32 GB SCA drive loaded
    with Solaris 10 (a really old version from 2005, which came on CDs
    instead of DVDs) with the patch in the root directory so I can similarly
    patch more systems as I acquire them.

    Enjoy,
    DoN.

    --
    Remove oil spill source from e-mail
    Email: <> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
    --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
     
    DoN. Nichols, Dec 19, 2010
    #8
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