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Using Thunderbird for Usenet

Discussion in 'Laptops' started by Roger Mills, May 22, 2010.

  1. Roger Mills

    Roger Mills Guest

    Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
    and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
    Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
    from the same stable - and free!

    Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
    users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
    be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
    mainly geared towards use as an email client.

    Specifically, I need to know:
    - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
    - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group
    - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
    time I read a group) are displayed

    Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ____________
    Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
    checked.
     
    Roger Mills, May 22, 2010
    #1
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  2. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    In news:,
    Roger Mills typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 15:55:47 +0100:
    > Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the
    > bullet and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have
    > opted for Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a
    > browser, and it's from the same stable - and free!
    >
    > Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
    > users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem
    > to be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which
    > seems mainly geared towards use as an email client.
    >
    > Specifically, I need to know:
    > - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
    > - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a
    > group - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since
    > the
    > last time I read a group) are displayed
    >
    > Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.


    Hello Roger! I have been using Thunderbird for many years and I still
    like Outlook Express v6 with OE-QuoteFix far better. At least for
    newsgroups. And no newsreader except OE has the "Show Replies to my
    Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Which IMHO makes everything else so bad as a
    newsreader. As I think this should be a feature on all newsreaders. But
    I guess the other programmers just don't get it.

    Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you can
    mark them with a Star. Another option is by marking them with a flag (I
    think there are 5 different default type of flags). And flags you can
    change the color of the header. Kind of like OE.

    I am not sure if you can make a newsgroup as read when you exit. I know
    you can mark it as read manually. And I remember you should be able to
    show only the unread messages under TB. Btw, TB has been released to
    different versions. I believe the popular ones are v1.5, v2.0, and v3.0.
    And depending on which one you are using, the answers maybe different. I
    actually like 2.0 the best, but I also like 1.5 too.

    I think this newsgroup maybe able to help you for the questions we here
    can't give you.

    netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news

    --
    Bill
    Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3
     
    BillW50, May 22, 2010
    #2
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  3. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    In news:,
    John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 17:40:09 +0100:
    > On 22/05/2010 16:40, BillW50 wrote:
    >
    >> Hello Roger! I have been using Thunderbird for many years and I still
    >> like Outlook Express v6 with OE-QuoteFix far better. At least for
    >> newsgroups. And no newsreader except OE has the "Show Replies to my
    >> Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Which IMHO makes everything else so bad as a
    >> newsreader. As I think this should be a feature on all newsreaders.
    >> But I guess the other programmers just don't get it.

    >
    > The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some of
    > the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not quite
    > as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a little
    > time learning what they can do.


    Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
    when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE "Show
    Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?

    > So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
    > which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads) you
    > get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n" (next)
    > will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have either
    > started or replied to.


    That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread should
    be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message, read or not.
    And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward, next
    unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for all
    version of TB either. How dumb can you get?

    >> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you
    >> can

    >
    > <panto mode>
    >
    > Oh yes it does!
    >
    > </panto mode>


    The older versions didn't call them watched. I think 3.0 now does. It
    takes Mozilla many years to make one simple change to a very old
    mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
    inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making things
    as difficult as possible.

    Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and very
    difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the same. I
    guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already retired. I
    guess nobody writes great software anymore.

    >> mark them with a Star. Another option is by marking them with a flag
    >> (I

    >
    > Or mark it as watched with a w
    >
    >> think there are 5 different default type of flags). And flags you can
    >> change the color of the header. Kind of like OE.

    >
    > You can add additional flags if you want.
    >
    >> I am not sure if you can make a newsgroup as read when you exit. I
    >> know you can mark it as read manually. And I remember you should be
    >> able to show only the unread messages under TB. Btw, TB has been
    >> released to different versions. I believe the popular ones are v1.5,
    >> v2.0, and v3.0. And depending on which one you are using, the
    >> answers maybe different. I actually like 2.0 the best, but I also
    >> like 1.5 too.

    >
    > There are two stable releases generally 2.0.x.x and 3.0.x, three has
    > some additional group options like killing a sub thread and better
    > searching (if you let it index anyway). 2 is a tad faster.


    V3 is the worse version of TB to date! Bloated and slow just like it's
    brother called Firefox. Must be the same dang programmers. Or at least
    party together or something. At least FF gets security updates. As they
    don't bother with TB.

    >> I think this newsgroup maybe able to help you for the questions we
    >> here can't give you.
    >>
    >> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news


    --
    Bill
    Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3
     
    BillW50, May 22, 2010
    #3
  4. Roger Mills

    Bruce Guest

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:55:47 +0100, Roger Mills <>
    wrote:

    >Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
    >and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
    >Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
    >from the same stable - and free!
    >
    >Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
    >users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
    >be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
    >mainly geared towards use as an email client.
    >
    >Specifically, I need to know:
    >- How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
    >- How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group
    >- How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
    >time I read a group) are displayed
    >
    >Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.



    I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
    stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
    for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.

    Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
    latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
    understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
    to the current version.

    While Agent must be paid for ($29.00, or slightly less than £20.00),
    there is a free 30 day trial so you can see if you like it. If you
    can manage with Thunderbird, that's fine, but if not, you might like
    to give Agent a try.

    http://www.forteinc.com/

    By the way, I use Agent only for news, but you can also configure it
    for email.
     
    Bruce, May 22, 2010
    #4
  5. Roger Mills

    Tim Watts Guest

    On 22/05/10 20:48, Bruce wrote:

    >
    > I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
    > stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
    > for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.
    >
    > Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
    > latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
    > understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
    > to the current version.


    I used Agent about 12 years back - and it was good then too. I quite
    liked it. However as I use Linux it's a bit of a non starter (never have
    been arsed to fiddle with Wine).

    Thunderbird isn't as good as the good bits of knode (filtering,
    highlighting) but it does mean one less program open (I use it for email
    too) and I like the fact it can open basic URLs too from USENET, and I
    do like the "ignore subthread" open. My killfile is set to ignore
    subthreads from those killed as that's usually where the flamewares
    spawn and stay burning...

    I must get round to understanding plugin programming - there are a few
    things I'd like to tweak...


    --
    Tim Watts

    Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
     
    Tim Watts, May 22, 2010
    #5
  6. Roger Mills wrote:
    > Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
    > and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
    > Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
    > from the same stable - and free!
    >
    > Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
    > users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
    > be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
    > mainly geared towards use as an email client.
    >
    > Specifically, I need to know:
    > - How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red


    pass.
    > - How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group


    right click on newgroup in main pane and select 'mark all read'

    > - How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
    > time I read a group) are displayed
    >



    Try my settings, view by thread and view display unread only.


    > Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
     
    The Natural Philosopher, May 23, 2010
    #6
  7. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    In news:,
    John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 23:49:06 +0100:
    > On 22/05/2010 20:09, BillW50 wrote:
    >
    >>> The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some
    >>> of the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not
    >>> quite as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a
    >>> little time learning what they can do.

    >>
    >> Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
    >> when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE
    >> "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?

    >
    > Watched threads with unread works nicely for me...


    I am sure, but nothing as simple as CTRL-H does. I am sure a lab rat
    running through a maze that doesn't change to find food works nicely for
    them too. But humans are not lab rats and we have more important things
    to do to use our intelligence and time than running through mazes.

    >>> So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
    >>> which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads)
    >>> you get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n"
    >>> (next) will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have
    >>> either started or replied to.

    >>
    >> That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread
    >> should be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message,
    >> read or not.

    >
    > So change the default key bindings if it bothers you that much.


    Use your head. Both new and next start with "n". That isn't good. One of
    them needs to be changed. And since unread next can be remembered easily
    with "u". The problem is solved. But morons at Mozilla can't be bothered
    with solutions. What is wrong with most programmers? They want to treat
    everybody as lab rats. I am sorry, but most people are smarter than
    that. Okay one or two are not, but that is another story.

    >> And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward,
    >> next unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for
    >> all version of TB either. How dumb can you get?

    >
    > Dumb would be complaining that a feature you want is missing, when its
    > been standard for ages, and the only reason you have not noticed is
    > you are using an insecure, non supported, out of date version.


    Nope, "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view has been missing from
    Thunderbird since day one. Hopefully when TB v4 comes out they will
    finally get it. Well maybe it will take until TB v6 you think?

    > I bet OE 4 does not do everything that you want either, why not
    > complain about that?


    Before OE4 there was Microsoft Mail and News v1.0. And the only
    competitor was Netscape back then. And when IE4 / OE4 came out they
    buried Netscape into darkness. And if it wasn't for AOL buying them out,
    there won't be any Thunderbird or Firefox today. And Mozilla has it so
    easy with Thunderbird, as OE is no more. Yet they still can't match OE6
    while it is sitting still. I can hire lab rats today and still beat
    Mozilla. That is really sad.

    >>>> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you
    >>>> can
    >>>
    >>> <panto mode>
    >>>
    >>> Oh yes it does!
    >>>
    >>> </panto mode>

    >>
    >> The older versions didn't call them watched. I think 3.0 now does. It
    >> takes Mozilla many years to make one simple change to a very old

    >
    > Watched threads have been about for ages...


    No it hasn't!

    >> mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
    >> inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making
    >> things as difficult as possible.

    >
    > Na, I think they just like to tease you.


    Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats, eh? I started as an
    electronic engineer back in the 70's. I only programmed too since there
    wasn't any programmers worth a darn back then. Well it wasn't their
    entire fault, since hardware was changing like crazy back then and you
    had to be an electronic engineer to keep up with it all. By the mid 80's
    hardware started to stabilize and there was programmers that started
    writing code better than I could. So I quit and stuck with electronic
    engineering.

    Now all of these people are retiring and the ones replacing them are
    mostly clueless. The newer generation just doesn't get it. Don't expect
    people to act like lab rats. Doing so we only create less and less
    people using your product. And Netscape (aka Mozilla) are making the
    very same mistakes they did a decade ago. They just really don't get it!

    >> Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and
    >> very difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the
    >> same. I

    >
    > Starting? They invented code bloat!


    Wishfully thinking. As MS-DOS v6 was only like 6MB in size. Windows 95
    was only 25MB for a full install. The OS wasn't the big thing, but
    applications got bloated. I have some programs here right now that
    requires at least 1GB of RAM for itself. Heck Acronis True Image itself
    eats up like 170MB when it isn't even running.

    >> guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already
    >> retired. I

    >
    > Most of MS's better products were not written by them anyway!


    Microsoft always had to fix that crap first. As those products were
    worthless as is. As if they were worth anything, they didn't need
    Microsoft to bale them out in the first place. Heck Apple would have
    been history today if Microsoft didn't bale them out too.

    >> guess nobody writes great software anymore.

    >
    > Depends on what you want I guess.


    Great software like we used to have. I am not asking too much I don't
    think.

    >>> There are two stable releases generally 2.0.x.x and 3.0.x, three has
    >>> some additional group options like killing a sub thread and better
    >>> searching (if you let it index anyway). 2 is a tad faster.

    >>
    >> V3 is the worse version of TB to date! Bloated and slow just like
    >> it's brother called Firefox. Must be the same dang programmers. Or
    >> at least party together or something. At least FF gets security
    >> updates. As they don't bother with TB.

    >
    > Yup, I mean TB 2 which is not even the current version has only had 24
    > point releases. Remember the last update for OE? (don't think MS ever
    > got round to making it quote properly)


    For starters, no version of TB ever worked properly. And even if it is
    true that v2 had 24 point releases, they still purposely stopped adding
    more in a timely matter:

    Mozilla plugs 13 holes in Firefox, retires older 2.0 browser
    by Gregg Keizer, Computerworld
    Dec 17, 2008 12:28 pm
    http://www.macworld.com/article/137607/firefox.html

    The site is gone and the Wayback Machine doesn't have a copy of it. But
    I save all of this stuff. And it once said:

    "Mozilla Messaging's Thunderbird e-mail client, which relies on the
    Firefox rendering engine for JavaScript and other functionality, was not
    patched Tuesday. It remains at Version 2.0.0.18. Until Thunderbird
    catches up -- an update is expected in early January -- users can
    protect themselves against the related Firefox vulnerabilities by
    disabling JavaScript in the e-mail program."

    It is very clear to me that Mozilla doesn't consider acThunderbird as a
    serious product. As they will get around to fixing it when they get
    around to it. Unfortunately they are always a day late and a dollar
    short. No news there. Netscape was exactly the same way. Thus some
    things never change at all.

    --
    Bill
    Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Windows XP SP3
     
    BillW50, May 23, 2010
    #7
  8. Roger Mills

    Bruce Guest

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 21:55:55 +0100, Tim Watts <> wrote:
    >On 22/05/10 20:48, Bruce wrote:
    >> I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
    >> stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
    >> for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.
    >>
    >> Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
    >> latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
    >> understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
    >> to the current version.

    >
    >I used Agent about 12 years back - and it was good then too. I quite
    >liked it.



    I think that's called "damning with faint praise".
     
    Bruce, May 23, 2010
    #8
  9. Roger Mills

    tony sayer Guest

    In article <>, Bruce
    <> scribeth thus
    >On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:55:47 +0100, Roger Mills <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Having moved to a new computer, I've finally decided to bite the bullet
    >>and get shot of Outlook Express as a newsreader - and have opted for
    >>Thunderbird, largely because I'm using Firefox as a browser, and it's
    >>from the same stable - and free!
    >>
    >>Anyone know whether there's an Idiot's guide anywhere, telling ex-OE
    >>users how to use Thunderbird for newsgroup access? There doesn't seem to
    >>be any targetted help - the Help menu takes you to a website which seems
    >>mainly geared towards use as an email client.
    >>
    >>Specifically, I need to know:
    >>- How to mark interesting threads so that they show up in red
    >>- How to automatically treat all messages as "read" when exiting a group
    >>- How to set the View options so that only new messages (since the last
    >>time I read a group) are displayed
    >>
    >>Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.

    >
    >
    >I have used Forte Agent for many years now. Originally there was a
    >stripped-down free version, but that soon changed so it has to be paid
    >for. But I find it incredibly intuitive to use.
    >
    >Recently I looked at Thunderbird as an alternative to upgrading to the
    >latest version of Agent. I found it was clunky and difficult to
    >understand. After about an hour I gave up and happily upgraded Agent
    >to the current version.
    >
    >While Agent must be paid for ($29.00, or slightly less than £20.00),
    >there is a free 30 day trial so you can see if you like it. If you
    >can manage with Thunderbird, that's fine, but if not, you might like
    >to give Agent a try.
    >
    >http://www.forteinc.com/
    >
    >By the way, I use Agent only for news, but you can also configure it
    >for email.
    >
    >


    I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
    anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
    better as yet;!.....
    --
    Tony Sayer
     
    tony sayer, May 23, 2010
    #9
  10. Roger Mills

    Graeme Guest

    In message <>, tony sayer
    <> writes

    >I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
    >anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
    >better as yet;!


    Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
    7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
    with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will arrive
    with W7.

    The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
    specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
    Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.

    Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
    three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
    performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the
    others?

    --
    Graeme
     
    Graeme, May 23, 2010
    #10
  11. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    On 5/23/2010 1:42 AM, Andy Burns wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 07:42:17 +0100:
    > BillW50 wrote:
    >
    >> a lab rat running through a maze

    >
    >> humans are not lab rats

    >
    >> treat everybody as lab rats

    >
    >> I can hire lab rats

    >
    >> Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats

    >
    >> Don't expect people to act like lab rats

    >
    > It may not be perfect but I, for one, am glad that TB is freely
    > available (as in speech), you're welcome to stick to your free OE (as in
    > beer).
    >
    > No wonder I avoid the big8 and alt groups these days and stick to a
    > handful of uk groups; someone ungrateful sod like you with an exe to
    > grind seems to pops whenever a message is xposted left of the pond ...


    Oh I see! We Thunderbird users are not allowed to give our opinion when
    the likes of you are around. As we must be thankful and grateful for the
    tiny crumbs that Mozilla has given us.

    You know, some companies actually do listen to their customers and
    improve their software. Some other companies doesn't care what their
    customers think. And they want you to feel grateful for the crumbs they
    hand out.

    And I have no axe to grind either. I am just saying it as it is. If you
    have a problem with anything I said, feel free to correct me. So far
    though, you have not corrected me on one single thing yet. Why not? And
    if you don't have any evidence to the contrary, then what is the problem?

    --
    Bill
    Thunderbird 3.0
     
    BillW50, May 23, 2010
    #11
  12. Roger Mills

    geoff Guest

    In message <>, Graeme
    <> writes
    >In message <>, tony sayer
    ><> writes
    >
    >>I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
    >>anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
    >>better as yet;!

    >
    >Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
    >7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
    >with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will
    >arrive with W7.


    It works with 32 bit, just not the 64 bit version



    >
    >The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
    >specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
    >Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.
    >
    >Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
    >three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
    >performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the others?
    >


    --
    geoff
     
    geoff, May 23, 2010
    #12
  13. Roger Mills

    Rod Guest

    On 23/05/2010 15:41, Graeme wrote:
    > In message <>, tony sayer
    > <> writes
    >
    >> I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
    >> anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
    >> better as yet;!

    >
    > Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
    > 7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
    > with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will arrive
    > with W7.
    >
    > The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
    > specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
    > Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.
    >
    > Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
    > three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
    > performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the others?
    >

    Thunderbird will thread Yahoo emails (I get individual emails of all
    posts for the groups I am interested in). Trouble is that so many people
    post in ways that mean they are not threaded even viewed within the
    group. Thins like starting a new topic by replying to an existing post
    and changing the subject. Or just posting a disconnected message without
    making any attempt to place it in a thread.

    --
    Rod
     
    Rod, May 23, 2010
    #13
  14. Roger Mills

    tony sayer Guest

    In article <>, Graeme
    <> scribeth thus
    >In message <>, tony sayer
    ><> writes
    >
    >>I've used Turnpike v 5.02 for years now and often wondered if there was
    >>anything better as a news reader and can't say I've come across anything
    >>better as yet;!

    >
    >Tony, I agree. However, TP will not work 'out of the box' with Windows
    >7, so I'm reading this thread with interest. My machine is running XP
    >with TP 6.06, but I suppose the time will come when a new PC will arrive
    >with W7.
    >


    Windoze 7 what's that;?...

    >The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
    >specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
    >Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.


    Never bothered with Yahoo groups as such the ones I use are all sent via
    e-mail..

    >
    >Thinking aloud, I suppose there is nothing to stop me running two or
    >three news readers simultaneously, just to see how each looks and
    >performs? Presumably, each would fetch news independently of the
    >others?
    >

    Never tried it but I reckon you can do it..
    --
    Tony Sayer
     
    tony sayer, May 23, 2010
    #14
  15. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    BillW50 wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 14:09:23 -0500:
    > In news:,
    > John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 17:40:09 +0100:
    >> On 22/05/2010 16:40, BillW50 wrote:
    >>> Thunderbird doesn't call them Watched threads like OE does. But you
    >>> can

    >> <panto mode>
    >>
    >> Oh yes it does!
    >>
    >> </panto mode>

    >
    > The older versions didn't call them watched. I think 3.0 now does. It
    > takes Mozilla many years to make one simple change to a very old
    > mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
    > inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making things
    > as difficult as possible.


    Hello John! Okay I just fired up all three versions of Thunderbird (1.5,
    2.0, and 3.0). And you are right, all of them have a watch option.

    The sad news though the watch toggle is very limited under all of these
    versions of Thunderbird. As you can only do one thing with it. As you
    can only see only unread watched threads and that is all. You can't see
    or review already read watched threads or anything.

    And all three versions the Message Filters are very limiting. None of
    them can see anything within a message itself. Not even the search will
    let you see inside of a message.

    Say for example, months from now you recall somebody mentioning
    something about Turnpike. And at the time you were not really
    interested. But now you are. And there is nothing within Thunderbird at
    all that will help you find it.

    I personally see Thunderbird having only a very limited feature set and
    that is all. And even some of the most basic features, makes you go
    through a lot of unnecessary work.

    Take for example, I read from like 10 different servers. Many of the
    settings are the same for each one. Take the signature for example. Just
    to change the signature, I have to change all 10 of them from different
    servers. They could have made this all so much easier.

    --
    Bill
    Asus EEE PC 702G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
    Xandros Linux (build 2007-10-19 13:03)
     
    BillW50, May 23, 2010
    #15
  16. Roger Mills

    Graeme Guest

    In message <>, tony sayer
    <> writes
    >In article <>, Graeme
    ><> scribeth thus
    >
    >>The comments regarding news are interesting, but how about groups,
    >>specifically Yahoo Groups. Will Thunderbird or Agent thread those like
    >>Usenet? That is a TP feature I could not live without.

    >
    >Never bothered with Yahoo groups as such the ones I use are all sent via
    >e-mail..


    Exactly. I too receive all Yahoo Group posts as e-mail. Turnpike reads
    them as Usenet posts, and threads them exactly as news, with a different
    folder for each group, and different threads within each group. Perfect.

    --
    Graeme
     
    Graeme, May 23, 2010
    #16
  17. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    John Rumm wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 18:00:54 +0100:
    > On 23/05/2010 03:26, BillW50 wrote:
    >> In news:,
    >> John Rumm typed on Sat, 22 May 2010 23:49:06 +0100:
    >>> On 22/05/2010 20:09, BillW50 wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> The programmers seem to "get it" just fine. However by making some
    >>>>> of the filtering tools a little more flexible, they are perhaps not
    >>>>> quite as simple. However they give far greater scope if you spend a
    >>>>> little time learning what they can do.
    >>>>
    >>>> Yes well I use TB 1.5, 2.0, and v3 and use the filtering tools. Even
    >>>> when you are a pro at using them. None of them work as nice as OE
    >>>> "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view. Sad isn't it?
    >>>
    >>> Watched threads with unread works nicely for me...

    >>
    >> I am sure, but nothing as simple as CTRL-H does. I am sure a lab rat
    >> running through a maze that doesn't change to find food works nicely for
    >> them too. But humans are not lab rats and we have more important things
    >> to do to use our intelligence and time than running through mazes.

    >
    > There are folks out there who insist that [teco | EDT | Emacs | TPU | WS
    > ]... are the only sensible key bindings as devised by God himself. So
    > basically any choice a programmer makes will be wrong for some people.
    > The better programmers allow for the end user to change the key
    > bindings, so that if it really is an issue for a particular user then
    > the user can change it.
    >
    > However even that will not please some users, since they expect it to
    > work in their preferred way (even when that may be less intuitive for
    > the majority) and don't see why they should use the tools provided to
    > configure it the way they want.
    >
    > Not sure what one does about them.


    One of the big problems when running applications under the old DOS days
    was everybody had their own key commands. Not a problem if you only ran
    one application all of the time. But if you ran other applications too,
    it would get really confusing.

    One of the big promises when Windows first came out was the promise that
    all of this would become standardized. And if you learned how one
    application worked, you can work any other Windows application as well.

    The problem is some did not stick with the same key command standard. So
    those of us who uses many different applications, this becomes very
    confusing.

    >>>>> So, using the technique I described elsewhere (watching threads to
    >>>>> which you post, and then restricting the view to watched threads)
    >>>>> you get get pretty much the functionality you desire. Hitting "n"
    >>>>> (next) will take you to each unread new post in a thread you have
    >>>>> either started or replied to.
    >>>>
    >>>> That is another stupid thing from TB. The key for the next unread
    >>>> should be "u" and not "n". And "n" should be for the next message,
    >>>> read or not.
    >>>
    >>> So change the default key bindings if it bothers you that much.

    >>
    >> Use your head. Both new and next start with "n". That isn't good. One of
    >> them needs to be changed. And since unread next can be remembered easily
    >> with "u". The problem is solved. But morons at Mozilla can't be bothered

    >
    > So change next unread to u and forward to n and you are done. What's the
    > problem.
    >
    > Most folks are probably happy with n for next since its the option they
    > will use most.


    But different applications uses different keys. So switching between
    applications actually makes you think or to look up which keys do what.
    And it is a real waste of time really.

    >> with solutions. What is wrong with most programmers? They want to treat
    >> everybody as lab rats. I am sorry, but most people are smarter than
    >> that. Okay one or two are not, but that is another story.

    >
    > So when they give you user definable menus, button bars, shortcuts etc,
    > in fact complete flexibility to tailor something to your needs, you
    > think you are being treated as a lab rat?


    No what I am saying they are only a tease. 3.0 has improved this
    greatly, so I have to say kudos there. But what had taken them so long?
    This should have been done since day one.

    >>>> And sometimes I read with a mouse alone. And adding back, forward,
    >>>> next unread, and previous unread on the toolbar isn't available for
    >>>> all version of TB either. How dumb can you get?
    >>>
    >>> Dumb would be complaining that a feature you want is missing, when its
    >>> been standard for ages, and the only reason you have not noticed is
    >>> you are using an insecure, non supported, out of date version.

    >>
    >> Nope, "Show Replies to my Messages" (CTRL-H) view has been missing from

    >
    > Woa!, you seem to have lost the thread. We are talking about having back
    > and forward buttons and reading news while controlling the app with the
    > mouse (you can lay CTRL-H to bed for a bit now).
    >
    > Thunderbird has these capabilities now so the fact that at some point in
    > the past it did not is not relevant to this discussion.


    To see my watched messages under Thunderbird, I must only see them in a
    thread view and only unread threads. Why so limiting? Also to get there
    I must press ALT-V-E-W. Okay fine, but to get back the other view I like
    to use is to sort messages by date with the newest on top. Well that is
    a lot of work toggling between those two views under Thunderbird. It
    doesn't need to be this hard.

    >> Thunderbird since day one. Hopefully when TB v4 comes out they will
    >> finally get it. Well maybe it will take until TB v6 you think?

    >
    > I think its pretty good now. Certainly not perfect, but quite usable.


    Every time I use Thunderbird it slows me down. Way too much work just to
    do just the simple things. Toggling between those two views I mentioned
    above is one good example.

    > OE however is a liability and should be avoided IMHO. The fact that it
    > uses a proprietary binary file format, combined with its bug that
    > trashes its mail store when a file reaches et 2 gig boundary, alone is
    > enough to preclude its use in my book. Being tied to the IE6 render
    > engine and the fact that that is now end of life also precludes it as a
    > sensible choice.


    I can see it being a concern for one. And I never saw a problem with the
    2GB boundary either. Nor have I ever experienced message database
    corruption. Although I backup so if one day it happens, I am still good
    anyway. Nor have I ever received a virus through OE either. So I
    personally don't see a problem.

    >>> I bet OE 4 does not do everything that you want either, why not
    >>> complain about that?

    >>
    >> Before OE4 there was Microsoft Mail and News v1.0. And the only
    >> competitor was Netscape back then. And when IE4 / OE4 came out they
    >> buried Netscape into darkness. And if it wasn't for AOL buying them out,
    >> there won't be any Thunderbird or Firefox today. And Mozilla has it so
    >> easy with Thunderbird, as OE is no more. Yet they still can't match OE6
    >> while it is sitting still. I can hire lab rats today and still beat
    >> Mozilla. That is really sad.

    >
    > You seem to be rambling. Perhaps the implicit assumption that TB should
    > emulate or be more like OE is the problem. I expect a good deal of the
    > user base would not see that as a desirable goal.


    Well since OE support is no more, there is a large group of users
    looking for a replacement. So some developer making an OE clone would
    probably get millions of users right away.

    >>> Watched threads have been about for ages...

    >>
    >> No it hasn't!

    >
    > They have been supported since before V2, and that has been out over
    > three years. It was also in 1.5 IIRC.


    Yes you are right. I just checked. Very limited to what you can do with
    Watched though. As it must be threaded and unread threads at that and
    that is all you can do.

    >>>> mistake. But then again Mozilla programmers love to show off how
    >>>> inferior their programming abilities are. They believe in making
    >>>> things as difficult as possible.
    >>>
    >>> Na, I think they just like to tease you.


    No doubt.

    >> Treat smart people and newbies as lab rats, eh? I started as an
    >> electronic engineer back in the 70's. I only programmed too since there
    >> wasn't any programmers worth a darn back then. Well it wasn't their
    >> entire fault, since hardware was changing like crazy back then and you
    >> had to be an electronic engineer to keep up with it all. By the mid 80's
    >> hardware started to stabilize and there was programmers that started
    >> writing code better than I could. So I quit and stuck with electronic
    >> engineering.
    >>
    >> Now all of these people are retiring and the ones replacing them are
    >> mostly clueless. The newer generation just doesn't get it. Don't expect
    >> people to act like lab rats. Doing so we only create less and less
    >> people using your product. And Netscape (aka Mozilla) are making the
    >> very same mistakes they did a decade ago. They just really don't get it!
    >>
    >>>> Sun is another company who likes to makes things slow, bloated, and
    >>>> very difficult to use as well. And Microsoft is starting to do the
    >>>> same. I
    >>>
    >>> Starting? They invented code bloat!

    >>
    >> Wishfully thinking. As MS-DOS v6 was only like 6MB in size. Windows 95

    >
    > And did what CP/M+ did in < 1MB


    Well CP/M 2.2 was limited to 64KB of RAM. And CP/M 3 allowed for 128KB
    (maybe more in 64KB banks). And so an application could only use like
    50KB and that was it. The trick to get around this limitation was to use
    overlays. So you would swap parts of the application in and out of
    memory. Kind of like a very early version of a swapfile.

    >> was only 25MB for a full install. The OS wasn't the big thing, but

    >
    > And was vastly inferior to the the fully real time and multi tasking QNX
    > at under 1.4MB compressed onto a single floppy.


    Sounds great. Although applications is what makes an OS, not an OS
    itself. You could design the world's best OS and it would be useless
    without the many applications to go with it.

    >> applications got bloated. I have some programs here right now that
    >> requires at least 1GB of RAM for itself. Heck Acronis True Image itself
    >> eats up like 170MB when it isn't even running.

    >
    > Well to an extent we the end users have elected to have it that way. We
    > want software cheaply, which means dealing with the complexity of modern
    > hardware and OS's in a sufficiently short time-scale to bring products
    > to market. That means extensive reuse of code and application frameworks
    > etc. The days of the individual coding the whole app in assembler are
    > long since gone. So it takes a bit more ram - spend £20 and add another
    > gig.


    Three decades ago I didn't see it that way and I still don't today. As
    many of the developers would purchase the latest and greatest and
    beefiest systems they could buy. Thus for most people, it was out of
    reach for them. I think it takes a lot for a developer to understand the
    latest and greatest shouldn't be your target. But the kind that most
    users actually has.

    >>>> guess all of the great programmers at Microsoft have already
    >>>> retired. I
    >>>
    >>> Most of MS's better products were not written by them anyway!

    >>
    >> Microsoft always had to fix that crap first. As those products were

    >
    > Hardly - excel was bought in basically working and just needed
    > rebranding. Foxpro was lightly warmed over before shipping as a MS
    > product (and stripping the core DB engine for use in access later)


    And they sold it to Microsoft why? Btw Excel was also available for OS/2
    as well. I think it even came first before the Windows version.

    > WinNT was effective a re-writing of VMS by the former DEC OS team, and
    > had little in common with Win9X beyond a tweaked version of the API
    > glued on top.


    Could be and probably.

    >> worthless as is. As if they were worth anything, they didn't need
    >> Microsoft to bale them out in the first place. Heck Apple would have
    >> been history today if Microsoft didn't bale them out too.
    >>
    >>>> guess nobody writes great software anymore.
    >>>
    >>> Depends on what you want I guess.

    >>
    >> Great software like we used to have. I am not asking too much I don't
    >> think.

    >
    > Such as?


    Everybody has their favorites from the past. And I usually like the
    older versions far better than the newer versions. Such as I like OE6
    far better than Windows Live Mail. I like the older versions of
    Thunderbird than the newer ones. I even like the older browsers than the
    newer ones. And I like Windows XP far better than I do with Vista and
    Windows 7. And the list goes on and on.

    >> It is very clear to me that Mozilla doesn't consider acThunderbird as a
    >> serious product. As they will get around to fixing it when they get

    >
    > They have limited resources and have to chose carefully where to spend
    > those. TB was a less important target the FF - I am sure Moz would agree
    > with that appraisal.


    I am sure that FF has far more users than TB has. But it is clear which
    one they really don't put a lot of effort in.

    >> around to it. Unfortunately they are always a day late and a dollar
    >> short. No news there. Netscape was exactly the same way. Thus some
    >> things never change at all.

    >
    > Netscape were not always in that situation. Then again they did have to
    > content with a competitor attempting to put them out of business[1]
    > using every trick in the book (legal or otherwise).


    Actually there was an interview on TV with both of the two guys who
    started Netscape (Jim Clark and Marc Andreessen). And they freely
    admitted that they pushed Microsoft right into that war. As they wanted
    to go head to head with Microsoft. And they fully believed whatever
    Microsoft could do, they could do better.

    > Note, not by producing a better product either. Bus still that is old
    > history.


    Those two admitted when they first saw IE4/OE4, they knew it was far
    better than anything that Netscape could ever produce and they knew
    Netscape was finished as a company.

    --
    Bill
    Thunderbird Portable 1.5
     
    BillW50, May 23, 2010
    #17
  18. Roger Mills

    Rod Guest

    On 23/05/2010 18:45, BillW50 wrote:
    <>
    >
    > Say for example, months from now you recall somebody mentioning
    > something about Turnpike. And at the time you were not really
    > interested. But now you are. And there is nothing within Thunderbird at
    > all that will help you find it.
    >

    Except the message body filter.

    --
    Rod
     
    Rod, May 23, 2010
    #18
  19. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    On 5/23/2010 3:01 PM, Rod wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 21:01:30 +0100:
    > On 23/05/2010 18:45, BillW50 wrote:
    > <>
    >>
    >> Say for example, months from now you recall somebody mentioning
    >> something about Turnpike. And at the time you were not really
    >> interested. But now you are. And there is nothing within Thunderbird at
    >> all that will help you find it.
    >>

    > Except the message body filter.


    Where is that Rod? I don't see that under 1.5, 2.0, or 3.0.

    --
    Bill
    Thunderbird Portable 3.0 (20091130)
     
    BillW50, May 23, 2010
    #19
  20. Roger Mills

    BillW50 Guest

    BillW50 wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 14:54:25 -0500:
    > John Rumm wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 18:00:54 +0100:
    >
    >> They have been supported since before V2, and that has been out over
    >> three years. It was also in 1.5 IIRC.

    >
    > Yes you are right. I just checked. Very limited to what you can do with
    > Watched though. As it must be threaded and unread threads at that and
    > that is all you can do.


    Oops! You can actually see watched unread as unthreaded. Although it
    takes a lot of work to get there. And I only found it by accident.

    --
    Bill
    Thunderbird Portable 2.0 (20090812)
     
    BillW50, May 23, 2010
    #20
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