Trouble booting now totally out of service

System placed in service Jan 2001:
PC-Chips M805LR motherboard with VIA KT133 chipset, Athlon 1GHz cpu,
512MB SDRAM, AGP video It has run with a number of HD's & OS's over the
years including Linux, Win98 & Win2K, & with LILO and NT-loader.

I've always kept the boot sequence at Floppy-->CD-->HD and the boot
*hangups* started occasionally about maybe about 2? years ago and would
often come after a "Boot from A.T.A.P.I. CD" if I had left a data CD in
the drive. Other times I have gotten the "LI" failure indication and a
Grub error on a couple of occasions although I've never installed Grub.
Pressing reset alone always caused a re-boot which was almost always
successful.

Over the past several months as it was getting worse, it's been running
a 30GB HD with vanilla Win98 on it. [Note: That HD is running fine in
this machine now where I boot to it optionally from the Bios boot
menu]. Boot failure always occurred! [whether I had a bootable floppy
or CD in or not] and occurred at the point where POST had displayed a
screenfull of all the h/w configuration. Pressing reset would repeat the
process and it would take more & more repeats as the days went by before
the boot went on & completed. More recently, it would give a
semi-trashed screen as the last one before success and I started
sometimes needing to use the front power-off button as reset had no
effect at that point. Anyhow, it all was looking very much as though
something was needing to warm up. Once up, it would run all day without
problem!!

During the above running period, I had reseated everything includung IDE
cables, swapped out memory, AGP video card plus installed a new CMOS
battery. Nothing helped with the boot hangs.

Then one morning after running all day previously, it went the rest of
the way. Press front power-on and no signal to monitor as it has only
yellow led on. Both PS fan and cpu fan are running as is green power-on
led on case front. Reset has no obvious effect although a flicker in an
led may be quicker than I can detect. Case front power button needs to
be held in to shut systen down.

Do I have toast? or is it something simple that I've overlooked?

Bob

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:21:39 -0700, Robert Heiling
<> wrote:

>
>System placed in service Jan 2001:
>PC-Chips M805LR motherboard with VIA KT133 chipset, Athlon 1GHz cpu,
>512MB SDRAM, AGP video It has run with a number of HD's & OS's over the
>years including Linux, Win98 & Win2K, & with LILO and NT-loader.
>
>I've always kept the boot sequence at Floppy-->CD-->HD and the boot
>*hangups* started occasionally about maybe about 2? years ago and would
>often come after a "Boot from A.T.A.P.I. CD" if I had left a data CD in
>the drive. Other times I have gotten the "LI" failure indication and a
>Grub error on a couple of occasions although I've never installed Grub.
>Pressing reset alone always caused a re-boot which was almost always
>successful.
>
>Over the past several months as it was getting worse, it's been running
>a 30GB HD with vanilla Win98 on it. [Note: That HD is running fine in
>this machine now where I boot to it optionally from the Bios boot
>menu]. Boot failure always occurred! [whether I had a bootable floppy
>or CD in or not] and occurred at the point where POST had displayed a
>screenfull of all the h/w configuration. Pressing reset would repeat the
>process and it would take more & more repeats as the days went by before
>the boot went on & completed. More recently, it would give a
>semi-trashed screen as the last one before success and I started
>sometimes needing to use the front power-off button as reset had no
>effect at that point. Anyhow, it all was looking very much as though
>something was needing to warm up. Once up, it would run all day without
>problem!!

Check cables, connectors, card contacts, fans, voltages, and
examine the motherboard capacitors for venting.



>
>During the above running period, I had reseated everything includung IDE
>cables, swapped out memory, AGP video card plus installed a new CMOS
>battery. Nothing helped with the boot hangs.


Disconnct all but the essential drive to boot from.

Try leaving only the floppy connected and run Memtest86 on
it for a few hours.


>
>Then one morning after running all day previously, it went the rest of
>the way. Press front power-on and no signal to monitor as it has only
>yellow led on. Both PS fan and cpu fan are running as is green power-on
>led on case front. Reset has no obvious effect although a flicker in an
>led may be quicker than I can detect. Case front power button needs to
>be held in to shut systen down.
>
>Do I have toast? or is it something simple that I've overlooked?


Try clearing CMOS. Check the battery voltage.
If the system power supply is similarly low-quality as the
motherboard, you've gotten good value out of both at this
point in time- and now both should be replaced (if none of
the above makes any difference).

kony wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:21:39 -0700, Robert Heiling
> <> wrote:
>
> >System placed in service Jan 2001:
> >PC-Chips M805LR motherboard with VIA KT133 chipset, Athlon 1GHz cpu,
> >512MB SDRAM, AGP video It has run with a number of HD's & OS's over the
> >years including Linux, Win98 & Win2K, & with LILO and NT-loader.
> >
> >I've always kept the boot sequence at Floppy-->CD-->HD and the boot
> >*hangups* started occasionally about maybe about 2? years ago and would
> >often come after a "Boot from A.T.A.P.I. CD" if I had left a data CD in
> >the drive. Other times I have gotten the "LI" failure indication and a
> >Grub error on a couple of occasions although I've never installed Grub.
> >Pressing reset alone always caused a re-boot which was almost always
> >successful.
> >
> >Over the past several months as it was getting worse, it's been running
> >a 30GB HD with vanilla Win98 on it. [Note: That HD is running fine in
> >this machine now where I boot to it optionally from the Bios boot
> >menu]. Boot failure always occurred! [whether I had a bootable floppy
> >or CD in or not] and occurred at the point where POST had displayed a
> >screenfull of all the h/w configuration. Pressing reset would repeat the
> >process and it would take more & more repeats as the days went by before
> >the boot went on & completed. More recently, it would give a
> >semi-trashed screen as the last one before success and I started
> >sometimes needing to use the front power-off button as reset had no
> >effect at that point. Anyhow, it all was looking very much as though
> >something was needing to warm up. Once up, it would run all day without
> >problem!!
>
> Check cables, connectors, card contacts, fans, voltages, and
> examine the motherboard capacitors for venting.

Reseating done over & over again already as mentioned. Both PS & cpu fan
still run. Voltages were still in spec when I was last able to get into the
Bios to look at them. Inside of case, MB, PS, & CPU always kept as dustfree
as possble on a regular basis.

> >During the above running period, I had reseated everything includung IDE
> >cables, swapped out memory, AGP video card plus installed a new CMOS
> >battery. Nothing helped with the boot hangs.
>
> Disconnct all but the essential drive to boot from.

Sorry. I maybe should have included it, but I had to stop somewhere and I've
already done that along with the things mentioned above. I've basically done
most of the fault-isolation tricks of that nature. It's that "warmup" that
had me stumped and I keep wondering if the heat didn't close some hairline
crack somewhere or have a similar effect.

> Try leaving only the floppy connected and run Memtest86 on
> it for a few hours.

Hard to do when it won't even boot. :-)

> >Then one morning after running all day previously, it went the rest of
> >the way. Press front power-on and no signal to monitor as it has only
> >yellow led on. Both PS fan and cpu fan are running as is green power-on
> >led on case front. Reset has no obvious effect although a flicker in an
> >led may be quicker than I can detect. Case front power button needs to
> >be held in to shut systen down.
> >
> >Do I have toast? or is it something simple that I've overlooked?
>
> Try clearing CMOS. Check the battery voltage.

Just tried that again, but no go.

> If the system power supply is similarly low-quality as the
> motherboard, you've gotten good value out of both at this
> point in time- and now both should be replaced (if none of
> the above makes any difference).

Thanks, but I'll do that once I find out what's wrong with it. I was hoping
that the pattern of its failure would be familiar to someone here.

Thanks for trying

Bob

At this point simple problems seem out. The boot
problems suggested mobo and/or memory troubles.
If you have swapped out all the parts, then the mobo or CPU are
all that is left.

"Robert Heiling" <> wrote in message
news:...
> kony wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:21:39 -0700, Robert Heiling
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> >System placed in service Jan 2001:
>> >PC-Chips M805LR motherboard with VIA KT133 chipset, Athlon 1GHz cpu,
>> >512MB SDRAM, AGP video It has run with a number of HD's & OS's over
>> >the
>> >years including Linux, Win98 & Win2K, & with LILO and NT-loader.
>> >
>> >I've always kept the boot sequence at Floppy-->CD-->HD and the boot
>> >*hangups* started occasionally about maybe about 2? years ago and
>> >would
>> >often come after a "Boot from A.T.A.P.I. CD" if I had left a data CD
>> >in
>> >the drive. Other times I have gotten the "LI" failure indication and
>> >a
>> >Grub error on a couple of occasions although I've never installed
>> >Grub.
>> >Pressing reset alone always caused a re-boot which was almost always
>> >successful.
>> >
>> >Over the past several months as it was getting worse, it's been
>> >running
>> >a 30GB HD with vanilla Win98 on it. [Note: That HD is running fine
>> >in
>> >this machine now where I boot to it optionally from the Bios boot
>> >menu]. Boot failure always occurred! [whether I had a bootable
>> >floppy
>> >or CD in or not] and occurred at the point where POST had displayed
>> >a
>> >screenfull of all the h/w configuration. Pressing reset would repeat
>> >the
>> >process and it would take more & more repeats as the days went by
>> >before
>> >the boot went on & completed. More recently, it would give a
>> >semi-trashed screen as the last one before success and I started
>> >sometimes needing to use the front power-off button as reset had no
>> >effect at that point. Anyhow, it all was looking very much as though
>> >something was needing to warm up. Once up, it would run all day
>> >without
>> >problem!!
>>
>> Check cables, connectors, card contacts, fans, voltages, and
>> examine the motherboard capacitors for venting.
>
> Reseating done over & over again already as mentioned. Both PS & cpu
> fan
> still run. Voltages were still in spec when I was last able to get
> into the
> Bios to look at them. Inside of case, MB, PS, & CPU always kept as
> dustfree
> as possble on a regular basis.
>
>> >During the above running period, I had reseated everything includung
>> >IDE
>> >cables, swapped out memory, AGP video card plus installed a new CMOS
>> >battery. Nothing helped with the boot hangs.
>>
>> Disconnct all but the essential drive to boot from.
>
> Sorry. I maybe should have included it, but I had to stop somewhere
> and I've
> already done that along with the things mentioned above. I've
> basically done
> most of the fault-isolation tricks of that nature. It's that "warmup"
> that
> had me stumped and I keep wondering if the heat didn't close some
> hairline
> crack somewhere or have a similar effect.
>
>> Try leaving only the floppy connected and run Memtest86 on
>> it for a few hours.
>
> Hard to do when it won't even boot. :-)
>
>> >Then one morning after running all day previously, it went the rest
>> >of
>> >the way. Press front power-on and no signal to monitor as it has
>> >only
>> >yellow led on. Both PS fan and cpu fan are running as is green
>> >power-on
>> >led on case front. Reset has no obvious effect although a flicker in
>> >an
>> >led may be quicker than I can detect. Case front power button needs
>> >to
>> >be held in to shut systen down.
>> >
>> >Do I have toast? or is it something simple that I've overlooked?
>>
>> Try clearing CMOS. Check the battery voltage.
>
> Just tried that again, but no go.
>
>> If the system power supply is similarly low-quality as the
>> motherboard, you've gotten good value out of both at this
>> point in time- and now both should be replaced (if none of
>> the above makes any difference).
>
> Thanks, but I'll do that once I find out what's wrong with it. I was
> hoping
> that the pattern of its failure would be familiar to someone here.
>
> Thanks for trying
>
> Bob
>

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:07:54 -0700, Robert Heiling
<> wrote:


>Thanks, but I'll do that once I find out what's wrong with it. I was hoping
>that the pattern of its failure would be familiar to someone here.

The pattern falls under the all-encompasing "something is
gradually getting less stable", up until the point where the
function had degraded enough to completely prevent
operation.

That can be caused by many parts but most commonly
motherboard or power supply. The last attemp could be
pulling out the board and power, plus CPU, 1 memory module
and video, and trying this barebones combination alone on a
desktop. Then swap in a different power supply or
motherboard if possible.

But doesn't anybody here know *why* I could always get into the Bios on the
cold system, but a boot would not complete until the system had been on for
5-10 minutes? i.e. warmed up?? I'm willing to believe that whatever it was
that was gradually failing and getting worse & worse with time, finally went
out. What might it have been?

Pen wrote:

> At this point simple problems seem out. The boot
> problems suggested mobo and/or memory troubles.
> If you have swapped out all the parts, then the mobo or CPU are
> all that is left.
>
> "Robert Heiling" <> wrote in message
> news:...
> > kony wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:21:39 -0700, Robert Heiling
> >> <> wrote:
> >>
> >> >System placed in service Jan 2001:
> >> >PC-Chips M805LR motherboard with VIA KT133 chipset, Athlon 1GHz cpu,
> >> >512MB SDRAM, AGP video It has run with a number of HD's & OS's over
> >> >the
> >> >years including Linux, Win98 & Win2K, & with LILO and NT-loader.
> >> >
> >> >I've always kept the boot sequence at Floppy-->CD-->HD and the boot
> >> >*hangups* started occasionally about maybe about 2? years ago and
> >> >would
> >> >often come after a "Boot from A.T.A.P.I. CD" if I had left a data CD
> >> >in
> >> >the drive. Other times I have gotten the "LI" failure indication and
> >> >a
> >> >Grub error on a couple of occasions although I've never installed
> >> >Grub.
> >> >Pressing reset alone always caused a re-boot which was almost always
> >> >successful.
> >> >
> >> >Over the past several months as it was getting worse, it's been
> >> >running
> >> >a 30GB HD with vanilla Win98 on it. [Note: That HD is running fine
> >> >in
> >> >this machine now where I boot to it optionally from the Bios boot
> >> >menu]. Boot failure always occurred! [whether I had a bootable
> >> >floppy
> >> >or CD in or not] and occurred at the point where POST had displayed
> >> >a
> >> >screenfull of all the h/w configuration. Pressing reset would repeat
> >> >the
> >> >process and it would take more & more repeats as the days went by
> >> >before
> >> >the boot went on & completed. More recently, it would give a
> >> >semi-trashed screen as the last one before success and I started
> >> >sometimes needing to use the front power-off button as reset had no
> >> >effect at that point. Anyhow, it all was looking very much as though
> >> >something was needing to warm up. Once up, it would run all day
> >> >without
> >> >problem!!
> >>
> >> Check cables, connectors, card contacts, fans, voltages, and
> >> examine the motherboard capacitors for venting.
> >
> > Reseating done over & over again already as mentioned. Both PS & cpu
> > fan
> > still run. Voltages were still in spec when I was last able to get
> > into the
> > Bios to look at them. Inside of case, MB, PS, & CPU always kept as
> > dustfree
> > as possble on a regular basis.
> >
> >> >During the above running period, I had reseated everything includung
> >> >IDE
> >> >cables, swapped out memory, AGP video card plus installed a new CMOS
> >> >battery. Nothing helped with the boot hangs.
> >>
> >> Disconnct all but the essential drive to boot from.
> >
> > Sorry. I maybe should have included it, but I had to stop somewhere
> > and I've
> > already done that along with the things mentioned above. I've
> > basically done
> > most of the fault-isolation tricks of that nature. It's that "warmup"
> > that
> > had me stumped and I keep wondering if the heat didn't close some
> > hairline
> > crack somewhere or have a similar effect.
> >
> >> Try leaving only the floppy connected and run Memtest86 on
> >> it for a few hours.
> >
> > Hard to do when it won't even boot. :-)
> >
> >> >Then one morning after running all day previously, it went the rest
> >> >of
> >> >the way. Press front power-on and no signal to monitor as it has
> >> >only
> >> >yellow led on. Both PS fan and cpu fan are running as is green
> >> >power-on
> >> >led on case front. Reset has no obvious effect although a flicker in
> >> >an
> >> >led may be quicker than I can detect. Case front power button needs
> >> >to
> >> >be held in to shut systen down.
> >> >
> >> >Do I have toast? or is it something simple that I've overlooked?
> >>
> >> Try clearing CMOS. Check the battery voltage.
> >
> > Just tried that again, but no go.
> >
> >> If the system power supply is similarly low-quality as the
> >> motherboard, you've gotten good value out of both at this
> >> point in time- and now both should be replaced (if none of
> >> the above makes any difference).
> >
> > Thanks, but I'll do that once I find out what's wrong with it. I was
> > hoping
> > that the pattern of its failure would be familiar to someone here.
> >
> > Thanks for trying
> >
> > Bob
> >

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:21:28 -0700, Robert Heiling
<> wrote:

>
>But doesn't anybody here know *why* I could always get into the Bios on the
>cold system, but a boot would not complete until the system had been on for
>5-10 minutes? i.e. warmed up?? I'm willing to believe that whatever it was
>that was gradually failing and getting worse & worse with time, finally went
>out. What might it have been?
>

Typically it could be power or motherboard capacitors, poor
solder joints (further degrading with numerous slight
thermal cycling) or board cracks.

kony wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:07:54 -0700, Robert Heiling
> <> wrote:
>
> >Thanks, but I'll do that once I find out what's wrong with it. I was hoping
> >that the pattern of its failure would be familiar to someone here.
>
> The pattern falls under the all-encompasing "something is
> gradually getting less stable", up until the point where the
> function had degraded enough to completely prevent
> operation.

But I was smart enough to figure that part out all by myself. :-) I was hoping
that the gurus would have a better answer.

> That can be caused by many parts but most commonly
> motherboard or power supply.

I had been secretly hoping that everything would point to the power supply
because I would pop the $$ for one if I could be reasonably certain. But a spare
unused power supply sitting on the shelf out in my garage because that wasn't
the problem isn't my idea of how to spend my money. Aren't there some voltage
test points that I could check now? The drawer on the CD drive must locked or
something as it won't open when I press the button. [yes the power is connected]

> The last attemp could be
> pulling out the board and power, plus CPU, 1 memory module
> and video, and trying this barebones combination alone on a
> desktop. Then swap in a different power supply or
> motherboard if possible.

I don't have all those spare parts sitting around even though I'm a packrat. I'd
have to buy them. Right now I have this PC-133 memory that I can't use anywhere
else, a Radeon that can be used, etc. It's a slow system by modern standards,
but my wife was happy with it, so I'd like to get it running again if it's not
too complicated.

Bob

kony wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:21:28 -0700, Robert Heiling
> <> wrote:
>
> >
> >But doesn't anybody here know *why* I could always get into the Bios on the
> >cold system, but a boot would not complete until the system had been on for
> >5-10 minutes? i.e. warmed up?? I'm willing to believe that whatever it was
> >that was gradually failing and getting worse & worse with time, finally went
> >out. What might it have been?
> >
>
> Typically it could be power or motherboard capacitors, poor
> solder joints (further degrading with numerous slight
> thermal cycling) or board cracks.

That makes a lot of sense! I believe the cracked solder would behave just like
the symptoms. Since the problem involved trashed video as it was building up and
it is video that is now dead, it might be a solder joint in video related
circuitry. Any ideas on that? like near the AGP slot? Although it's unlikely to
be visible to the naked eye. It may also be important to note that it may have
been attempting to switch from text video to graphics video at the time of
failure, although the video cards I tried were not failing.

Bob

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:58:02 -0700, Robert Heiling
<> wrote:

>kony wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:21:28 -0700, Robert Heiling
>> <> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >But doesn't anybody here know *why* I could always get into the Bios on the
>> >cold system, but a boot would not complete until the system had been on for
>> >5-10 minutes? i.e. warmed up?? I'm willing to believe that whatever it was
>> >that was gradually failing and getting worse & worse with time, finally went
>> >out. What might it have been?
>> >
>>
>> Typically it could be power or motherboard capacitors, poor
>> solder joints (further degrading with numerous slight
>> thermal cycling) or board cracks.
>
>That makes a lot of sense! I believe the cracked solder would behave just like
>the symptoms. Since the problem involved trashed video as it was building up and
>it is video that is now dead, it might be a solder joint in video related
>circuitry. Any ideas on that?

Video won't appear if any other part of the system doesn't
work, it would be the typical failure-to-post problem. It
"could" be video related, but insufficient information to
know- and we may never know, a modern board is too complex
and small to easily test, and often not worth the time even
if one could test it.


>like near the AGP slot?

I'd suspect that region to be less likely than many- because
the soldered-on slots greatly reinforce the board to prevent
bending. Cold solder joints could be anywhere though, no
easy way to see under a ball-grid chip.

>Although it's unlikely to
>be visible to the naked eye. It may also be important to note that it may have
>been attempting to switch from text video to graphics video at the time of
>failure, although the video cards I tried were not failing.


That may not mean anything, switching to graphics may've
simply been a significant increase in power usage. If you
had a spare PCI video card lying around you could try it,
but I won't hold a lot of hope for it working unless the
power supply itself was just barely limping along and the
PCI card used significantly less power than the former video
did.