Very annoying noise problem

Greetings.

Earlier today my system¹ developed a very annoying problem -- the
"sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic noise coming out
of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female) jack. I say *electronic*
noise because, it's not just a static noise of anything resembling a
constant nature. Well, it may be that too, but only as a background
"feature."

This electronic noise seems to reflect what's actually going on with the
hardware and changes according to movement of the mouse (this is the
most noticeable) and harddrive activity. Another interesting aspect is
that if the CPU is running at 100%, this noise subsides to the point of
being almost inaudible.

I browsed through the applicable DELL forum and I didn't find another
problem whose description really matched mine. I did pick up one
suggestion: see if there's a difference when running off the battery vs.
AC power -- presumably with the idea that the sound may be coming from
the AC current, somehow; that running off the battery would be quieter
if that were the case.

Interestingly and troubling, in my case, the sound was worse when
running off the battery. Actually, the other electronic noises may have
still been going on, but they became drowned out by a very constant hum,
at an unwavering pitch that's easily duplicated by the human voice.

In the DELL forum, there were a number of comments from people who were
trying to be helpful, and many of these revolved around trying to find
some software-related reasons. In my case, I think the problem is much
more fundamental. Here's why:
<#> the sound is present while the machine is booting up
<#> even after booting from a DOS CD, the sound is present (tho' less
so, vis-a-vis no mouse support)
<#> essentially, the noise becomes present as soon as the computer is
powered on.

I'm posting this on the off-chance that there might be something I can
do about it,² but I'm not optimistic. Even if it can't be fixed, I'd
sure like to understand what it means and what may have caused it.
Regarding potential causes, I can report one possible related event:
just before I noticed this, I plugged a microphone into the microphone
jack.³

Why Am I Posting This Here?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Recently I've rediscovered my newsreader software and have been using it
for some other topics. As I've looked over the input from Usenet
participants and compared them to what I see on the DELL site, I have
the very distinct impression that the really heavy hitters are over
here. I'm just hoping that one or two of you may be able to shed some
light on this nasty development.

Sorry 'bout the length of this post, but I figure if I can provide all
the potentially relevant info from the get-go, it might save potential
responders from having to ask more questions than necessary.

Anyway, thanks for whatever help you can provide.
________________________________
1. Win/XP Home/SP2 on a DELL Inspiron 1000 laptop, purchased early July
of 2004. So far, I've had to replace the harddrive and have recently
discovered the CD-ROM can no longer handle -RW discs. Nice! :-(
2. short of replacing the motherboard, and I don't know if even *that*
would be a possibility.
3. It's a cheapo microphone I found (can't remember where). But it
appears as though it had never been used before. I was attempting to
use it in a Skype session, having just updated my Skype software.
--
_______
-CH
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Crazy Horse <> wrote:
> Greetings.

> Earlier today my system? developed a very annoying problem -- the
> "sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic noise coming out
> of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female) jack. I say *electronic*
> noise because, it's not just a static noise of anything resembling a
> constant nature. Well, it may be that too, but only as a background
> "feature."

> This electronic noise seems to reflect what's actually going on with the
> hardware and changes according to movement of the mouse (this is the
> most noticeable) and harddrive activity. Another interesting aspect is
> that if the CPU is running at 100%, this noise subsides to the point of
> being almost inaudible.

> I browsed through the applicable DELL forum and I didn't find another
> problem whose description really matched mine. I did pick up one
> suggestion: see if there's a difference when running off the battery vs.
> AC power -- presumably with the idea that the sound may be coming from
> the AC current, somehow; that running off the battery would be quieter
> if that were the case.

Not necessarily.

> Interestingly and troubling, in my case, the sound was worse when
> running off the battery. Actually, the other electronic noises may have
> still been going on, but they became drowned out by a very constant hum,
> at an unwavering pitch that's easily duplicated by the human voice.

> In the DELL forum, there were a number of comments from people who were
> trying to be helpful, and many of these revolved around trying to find
> some software-related reasons. In my case, I think the problem is much
> more fundamental. Here's why:
> <#> the sound is present while the machine is booting up
> <#> even after booting from a DOS CD, the sound is present (tho' less
> so, vis-a-vis no mouse support)
> <#> essentially, the noise becomes present as soon as the computer is
> powered on.

> I'm posting this on the off-chance that there might be something I can
> do about it,? but I'm not optimistic. Even if it can't be fixed, I'd
> sure like to understand what it means and what may have caused it.
> Regarding potential causes, I can report one possible related event:
> just before I noticed this, I plugged a microphone into the microphone
> jack.?

There is one distinct possibility: There are different types of
microphones and some types need an additional amplification
boost in order to be lound enough. Possibly plugging in the
microphine activated that one. If the microphone input is on
and ''boosted'', but no microphone is plugged in, it is
sensitive enough to pick up all sorts od stray electronic
emissions. (The microphone sort of shortens these emissione
out if plugged in.)

So the solution would be to bring up your sound control and
a) turn off microphone boost and/or b) turn of the microphone
input.

These may be an additional problem, that is in the hardware:
Your mic-input may have an activation switch that turns
off the input when nothing is plugged in. These can lock-open
in some cases. Unfortunately these connectors are notoriously
low quality. The sound control should still be able to turn
the microphone off.

Arno


> Why Am I Posting This Here?
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Recently I've rediscovered my newsreader software and have been using it
> for some other topics. As I've looked over the input from Usenet
> participants and compared them to what I see on the DELL site, I have
> the very distinct impression that the really heavy hitters are over
> here. I'm just hoping that one or two of you may be able to shed some
> light on this nasty development.

> Sorry 'bout the length of this post, but I figure if I can provide all
> the potentially relevant info from the get-go, it might save potential
> responders from having to ask more questions than necessary.

> Anyway, thanks for whatever help you can provide.
> ________________________________
> 1. Win/XP Home/SP2 on a DELL Inspiron 1000 laptop, purchased early July
> of 2004. So far, I've had to replace the harddrive and have recently
> discovered the CD-ROM can no longer handle -RW discs. Nice! :-(
> 2. short of replacing the motherboard, and I don't know if even *that*
> would be a possibility.
> 3. It's a cheapo microphone I found (can't remember where). But it
> appears as though it had never been used before. I was attempting to
> use it in a Skype session, having just updated my Skype software.
> --
> _______
> -CH
> ???????

Arno-

Thanks for getting back to me. See my comments below...

In article <>, says...
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Crazy Horse <> wrote:
> > Greetings.
>
> > Earlier today my system? developed a very annoying problem -- the
> > "sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic noise coming out
> > of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female) jack.
> > :
> > [snip]
> > :
> > This electronic noise seems to reflect what's actually going on with the
> > hardware and changes according to movement of the mouse (this is the
> > most noticeable) and harddrive activity.> jack.?
>
> There is one distinct possibility: There are different types of
> microphones and some types need an additional amplification
> boost in order to be lound enough. Possibly plugging in the
> microphine activated that one. If the microphone input is on
> and ''boosted'', but no microphone is plugged in, it is
> sensitive enough to pick up all sorts of stray electronic
> emissions. (The microphone sort of shorts [out] these emissions
> ...if plugged in.)

You know, after reading this, I took that cheapo mic and plugged it back
into the female jack. And, as suggested by your comments above, the
background noise subsided, and almost to the point of being completely
inaudible. Unfortunately, the effect was only transient. And the
"stray electronic emissions noises" resumed their previous volume, in
fairly short order. Still, this makes me think you're onto something
here.

However . . .

> So the solution would be to bring up your sound control and
> a) turn off microphone boost and/or b) turn of the microphone
> input.
>
> These may be an additional problem, that is in the hardware:
> Your mic-input may have an activation switch that turns
> off the input when nothing is plugged in. These can lock-open
> in some cases. Unfortunately these connectors are notoriously
> low quality. The sound control should still be able to turn
> the microphone off.

The Windows Volume Control slider buttons and Mute checkboxes have no
effect whatsoever on this background noise. In fact regardless of the
slider positions of any of the sliders (e.g., Master Volume, Wave,
*Microphone* etc.) there is no difference in the volume of the
electronic noise.

Anyway, I'm very grateful for your feedback. I *do* think you're onto
something here, I just don't know if there's a remedy or not, and if so,
how I'd go about implementing it.

Thanks again for the help.
--
_______
-CH
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Crazy Horse" <> wrote in message
news: k.net...
Greetings.

Earlier today my system¹ developed a very annoying problem -- the
"sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic noise coming out
of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female) jack. I say *electronic*
noise because, it's not just a static noise of anything resembling a
constant nature. Well, it may be that too, but only as a background
"feature."

This electronic noise seems to reflect what's actually going on with the
hardware and changes according to movement of the mouse (this is the
most noticeable) and harddrive activity. Another interesting aspect is
that if the CPU is running at 100%, this noise subsides to the point of
being almost inaudible.


Question: Does this noise exist when operating on mains only, or is it
present on battery as well.

If it is present on mains only, then it is an earth loop causing the
problem.

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 00:16:01 GMT, Crazy Horse
<> wrote:

>Greetings.
>
>Earlier today my system=B9 developed a very annoying problem -- the=20
>"sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic noise coming out=20
>of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female) jack. I say *electronic*=20
>noise because, it's not just a static noise of anything resembling a=20
>constant nature. Well, it may be that too, but only as a background=20
>"feature."

One thing that you might try is wiggling the headphone or speaker
plug in its jack. The symptoms you describe could indicate a bad
ground connection, which might be (momentarily) re-established
by wiggling. Also, if you haven't done so already, try different
phones or speaker cable in case the break is in the plug instead
of the jack.

If you do discover that there is a bad ground in the jack, you
might be able to fix it just by judicious poking and bending,
(with power off!) but the odds are you will need to open up the case
to get at the jack and possibly replace it. On a laptop, this is
not for the faint of heart, and you are likely to screw up
something else in the process. (Don't ask how I know this!)

Best of luck...




Bob Masta

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Crazy Horse <> wrote:
> Arno-

> Thanks for getting back to me. See my comments below...

> In article <>, says...
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Crazy Horse <> wrote:
>> > Greetings.
>>
>> > Earlier today my system? developed a very annoying problem -- the
>> > "sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic noise coming out
>> > of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female) jack.
>> > :
>> > [snip]
>> > :
>> > This electronic noise seems to reflect what's actually going on with the
>> > hardware and changes according to movement of the mouse (this is the
>> > most noticeable) and harddrive activity.> jack.?
>>
>> There is one distinct possibility: There are different types of
>> microphones and some types need an additional amplification
>> boost in order to be lound enough. Possibly plugging in the
>> microphine activated that one. If the microphone input is on
>> and ''boosted'', but no microphone is plugged in, it is
>> sensitive enough to pick up all sorts of stray electronic
>> emissions. (The microphone sort of shorts [out] these emissions
>> ...if plugged in.)

> You know, after reading this, I took that cheapo mic and plugged it back
> into the female jack. And, as suggested by your comments above, the
> background noise subsided, and almost to the point of being completely
> inaudible. Unfortunately, the effect was only transient. And the
> "stray electronic emissions noises" resumed their previous volume, in
> fairly short order. Still, this makes me think you're onto something
> here.

Hmmm.

> However . . .

>> So the solution would be to bring up your sound control and
>> a) turn off microphone boost and/or b) turn of the microphone
>> input.
>>
>> These may be an additional problem, that is in the hardware:
>> Your mic-input may have an activation switch that turns
>> off the input when nothing is plugged in. These can lock-open
>> in some cases. Unfortunately these connectors are notoriously
>> low quality. The sound control should still be able to turn
>> the microphone off.

> The Windows Volume Control slider buttons and Mute checkboxes have no
> effect whatsoever on this background noise. In fact regardless of the
> slider positions of any of the sliders (e.g., Master Volume, Wave,
> *Microphone* etc.) there is no difference in the volume of the
> electronic noise.

Ok, that is bad. It means it is not the mic input alone.

> Anyway, I'm very grateful for your feedback. I *do* think you're onto
> something here, I just don't know if there's a remedy or not, and if so,
> how I'd go about implementing it.

> Thanks again for the help.

Well, with the volume controls not having an effect, it needs to be
a more serious problem. Perhaps the filters on the soundcard supply
voltage have gone bad. Or it has a preregulator that has given up
the ghost. Only fix then would be to replace the broken components
or add another filter. Since the soundchip likely sits on the mainboard,
that is a tricky operation requiring considerable soldering experience
and dexterity.

Or even more serious, the output filters on the main supply for the
computer may have gone bad. In that case you can expect crashes, HDD
errors and finally destruction of the notebook.

I think this should be looked into, as the worst-case is a real
possibility. Needs someone competent with electronics and an
Oscilloscope. If it is the main regulator, it may or may not be
repairable. In any case I advise you to update your backups of all
important data on the notebook.

Arno

In article <>,
_SPAM.co.uk says...
>
> "Crazy Horse" <> wrote in message
> news: k.net...
>
> > Earlier today my system¹ developed a very annoying problem --
> > the "sudden" and seemingly permanent presence of electronic
> > noise coming out of the headphone/(powered)speakers (female)
> > jack. I say *electronic* noise because, it's not just a static
> > noise of anything resembling a constant nature. Well, it may be
> > that too, but only as a background "feature."
> >
> > This electronic noise seems to reflect what's actually going on
> > with the hardware and changes according to movement of the mouse
> > (this is the most noticeable) and harddrive activity. Another
> > interesting aspect is that if the CPU is running at 100%, this
> > noise subsides to the point of being almost inaudible.
>
> Question: Does this noise exist when operating on mains only, or is it
> present on battery as well.
>
> If it is present on mains only, then it is an earth loop causing the
> problem.

Perhaps you did't see the two ¶'s that followed the ones above:

> > I browsed through the applicable DELL forum and I didn't find
> > another problem whose description really matched mine. I did
> > pick up one suggestion: see if there's a difference when
> > running off the battery vs. AC power -- presumably with the
> > idea that the sound may be coming from the AC current, somehow;
> > that running off the battery would be quieter if that were the
> > case.
> >
> > Interestingly and troubling, in my case, the sound was worse
> > when running off the battery. Actually, the other electronic
> > noises may have still been going on, but they became drowned out
> > by a very constant hum, at an unwavering pitch that's easily
> > duplicated by the human voice.

So the answer to your question is, when running off the batter only, the
background noise (I think) still exists, but it was hard to be certain
since it was being drowned out by a much louder constant hum.

In any case, thanks for getting back to me.

--
_______
-CH
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

In article <>, says...
and dexterity.
> :
> [snip]
> :
> Or even more serious, the output filters on the main supply for the
> computer may have gone bad. In that case you can expect crashes, HDD
> errors and finally destruction of the notebook.
>
> I think this should be looked into, as the worst-case is a real
> possibility. Needs someone competent with electronics and an
> Oscilloscope. If it is the main regulator, it may or may not be
> repairable. In any case I advise you to update your backups of all
> important data on the notebook.

Good heavens, Arno, you've scared the beegeezus outta me! I'm not
complaining, or criticizing... just reporting my reaction.

I have one other interesting thing to report, that I'm pretty sure is
related to the other (unwanted) phenomenon:
------------------------------
In WinXP, in the ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS » /Keyboard\, bottom section,
"ToggleKeys" ... I have the Use ToggleKeys box checked. This means that
whenever I pressed any of the "lock" keys (CAPS, NUM, SCROLL), a loud,
brief tone would be emitted. In fact, this tone *was* so loud that it
was actually a bit annoying, especially when I had the headphones on.
And the reason I couldn't turn it down is that its volume seemed to be
quite independent of the Windows slider volume controls. It was in its
own little world of volume control, and it was always at that annoying
loud setting.
¶ You may have notice that I used the past tense, "was" and this is
because simultaneously with the appearance of the system noise, that
sound went away. I double-checked to make sure the box is still checked
(and it is), but... no sound. Following up on this discovery, I
unplugged everything from the hdph/spkr jack to make sure I'd still get
sound out of the onboard speakers, and I do.

I'm not trying to get you to back down from you earlier dire warning,
but I want to run this by you...
------------------------------
Because of the very close proximity¹ between plugging in that cheapo
microphone and noticing the system noise and other symptoms (mentioned
above), it seems quite clear to me there is a strong cause-effect
relationship between the two. So, *if* that's the case (i.e., if
plugging in this microphone somehow *caused* the noise problem), then
would that suggest the problem is in one area over another?

To be more specific, prior to suggesting the most dire potential reason
(bad output filters on the main [power] supply), you'd also said,
> Perhaps the filters on the soundcard supply
> voltage have gone bad. Or it has a preregulator that has given up
> the ghost.

What I'm trying to get at is this: if the problem was caused by plugging
in that mic, would doing that more likely be able to effect the
soundcard[/chip] subsystem, vs. being able to effect the main power
supply?

I guess I want to believe that the problem is not about the power
supply... and intuitively, it just seems like it's related to the sound
subsystem. On the other hand, it might not be a good idea to gamble the
safety of my computer, etc., on my intuition. Still, I think my
reasoning may have some merit, which is why I wanted to run it by you.

Any feedback?

In any event, thank you very much for the time you've already taken to
help me. I really appreciate it.
________________________
1. And by this I mean that I'd been using the earphones right along.
Took them off long enough to fetch the microphone, take it out of its
sealed plastic bag and plug it in. I popped the headphones back on and
immediately noticed the noise which hadn't been there just a few minutes
before, or at any other time.
--
_______
-CH
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Crazy Horse <> wrote:
> In article <>, says...
> and dexterity.
>> :
>> [snip]
>> :
>> Or even more serious, the output filters on the main supply for the
>> computer may have gone bad. In that case you can expect crashes, HDD
>> errors and finally destruction of the notebook.
>>
>> I think this should be looked into, as the worst-case is a real
>> possibility. Needs someone competent with electronics and an
>> Oscilloscope. If it is the main regulator, it may or may not be
>> repairable. In any case I advise you to update your backups of all
>> important data on the notebook.

> Good heavens, Arno, you've scared the beegeezus outta me! I'm not
> complaining, or criticizing... just reporting my reaction.

Don't panic. It may still be an isolated problem with the soundcard.
But the fact that the sound-settings do not influence the problem
is a bad sign....

> I have one other interesting thing to report, that I'm pretty sure is
> related to the other (unwanted) phenomenon:
> ------------------------------
> In WinXP, in the ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS ? /Keyboard\, bottom section,
> "ToggleKeys" ... I have the Use ToggleKeys box checked. This means that
> whenever I pressed any of the "lock" keys (CAPS, NUM, SCROLL), a loud,
> brief tone would be emitted. In fact, this tone *was* so loud that it
> was actually a bit annoying, especially when I had the headphones on.
> And the reason I couldn't turn it down is that its volume seemed to be
> quite independent of the Windows slider volume controls. It was in its
> own little world of volume control, and it was always at that annoying
> loud setting.
> ? You may have notice that I used the past tense, "was" and this is
> because simultaneously with the appearance of the system noise, that
> sound went away. I double-checked to make sure the box is still checked
> (and it is), but... no sound. Following up on this discovery, I
> unplugged everything from the hdph/spkr jack to make sure I'd still get
> sound out of the onboard speakers, and I do.

Hmm. Interessting. This raises a new possibility: The toggle-sound
circuitry may be broken and injecting the noise now instead of
nothing or the anoying loud toggle sound. Or something may be wrong
with the sound-system that also kills the toggle sound.

> I'm not trying to get you to back down from you earlier dire warning,
> but I want to run this by you...

It is just a warning. I suspect the soundcard. But as a system failure
is really bad, even a smaller probability merits a warning.

> ------------------------------
> Because of the very close proximity? between plugging in that cheapo
> microphone and noticing the system noise and other symptoms (mentioned
> above), it seems quite clear to me there is a strong cause-effect
> relationship between the two. So, *if* that's the case (i.e., if
> plugging in this microphone somehow *caused* the noise problem), then
> would that suggest the problem is in one area over another?

It may. It could be a very broken sound design (hardware and/or software)
and plugging in the microphone could have left the ''toggle-input''
of the soundcard open. An open input can catch the noise you mentioned
from direct RF input.

> To be more specific, prior to suggesting the most dire potential reason
> (bad output filters on the main [power] supply), you'd also said,
>> Perhaps the filters on the soundcard supply
>> voltage have gone bad. Or it has a preregulator that has given up
>> the ghost.

> What I'm trying to get at is this: if the problem was caused by plugging
> in that mic, would doing that more likely be able to effect the
> soundcard[/chip] subsystem, vs. being able to effect the main power
> supply?

It would not effect the main power at all.

> I guess I want to believe that the problem is not about the power
> supply...

Understandable.

> and intuitively, it just seems like it's related to the sound
> subsystem. On the other hand, it might not be a good idea to gamble the
> safety of my computer, etc., on my intuition. Still, I think my
> reasoning may have some merit, which is why I wanted to run it by you.

> Any feedback?

Your reasoning has merit. And the additional info about the missing
toggle-sound would suggest that it is sthe sound-subsystem only.
And since you have backups anyways (you do, don't you?), a very small
risk of a power problem does not merit drastic action.

One possibility is what somebody else here mentioned: A broken input
jack. Another one is that a broken driver just does the wrong thing
on microphone plug-in. One thing you can try is pluging in and
removing the microphone say 20 times or so. This may get a broken
connector to work again. It may just be that is does not ground the
input anymore. This could (in a cheap design) also kill your
toggle-sound.

You can also try to disable the sound complete;y in the BIOS.
If you still get the noise, then it is not a driver problem.

More questions: Is normal sound still normal? Or is "worse"
than before? And does the mircrophone work?

> In any event, thank you very much for the time you've already taken to
> help me. I really appreciate it.
> ________________________
> 1. And by this I mean that I'd been using the earphones right along.
> Took them off long enough to fetch the microphone, take it out of its
> sealed plastic bag and plug it in. I popped the headphones back on and
> immediately noticed the noise which hadn't been there just a few minutes
> before, or at any other time.

Ok. Even more indication that something went wrong on plug-in. That
would be a localized problem in the sound system.

Arno

In article <>, says...
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Crazy Horse wrote:
> > ________________________
> > 1. And by this I mean that I'd been using the earphones right along.
> > Took them off long enough to fetch the microphone, take it out of its
> > sealed plastic bag and plug it in. I popped the headphones back on and
> > immediately noticed the noise which hadn't been there just a few minutes
> > before, or at any other time.
>
> Ok. Even more indication that something went wrong on plug-in. That
> would be a localized problem in the sound system.

Arno~

Thanks so much for your most recent reply. I will be doing some more
experimenting and will answer the questions you posed, later on today.

Thanks again... much appreciated.
--
_______
-CH
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯