Why is small-scale ARM development such a pain

Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
lets me use assembly language with a single
..asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
to complain about.

Why isn't there an equivalently painless
solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
we've tried is a great mass of codependent
GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
user-friendly value-added front end.

On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:51:18 PM UTC-7, Jim Stewart wrote:
> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
> lets me use assembly language with a single
> .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
> to complain about.
>
> Why isn't there an equivalently painless
> solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
> we've tried is a great mass of codependent
> GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
> user-friendly value-added front end.

I don't find it a pain at all. I've used Rowley Crossworks with either Rowley or Segger JTAG devices, and it all works quite nicely. No one-pin debugging, but I don't consider that lack a pain. And I'd give my neighbor's right arm if AVR Studio had the equivalent of Rowley's tasking library.

Jim Stewart <> wrote:
> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
> lets me use assembly language with a single
> .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
> to complain about.
>
> Why isn't there an equivalently painless
> solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
> we've tried is a great mass of codependent
> GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
> user-friendly value-added front end.

Look harder. Most ARM toolchain vendors (Keil, IAR etc.) support the
Cortex-M0/M3 and debugging over the SWD (single-wire debug) interface.

-a

On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:51:18 UTC+1, Jim Stewart wrote:
> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
> lets me use assembly language with a single
> .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
> to complain about.
>
> Why isn't there an equivalently painless
> solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
> we've tried is a great mass of codependent
> GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
> user-friendly value-added front end.

Back in the old days we used to debug with a logic analyser and an ICE the size
of a small house. The code was programmed into UV eraseable EPROMS. We could
manage about 4 edit/compile/debug cycles per day. If you think ARM development
is a pain, you don't know real pain

To be serious though, the ARM dev systems I have used are pretty good. You have
to pay a bit of learning curve for your 32 bits though. I would avoid anything
Eclipse based or that requires external gdb servers though.

On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:30:26 PM UTC-7, Bob wrote:
> On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:51:18 UTC+1, Jim Stewart wrote:
> > Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
> > lets me use assembly language with a single
> > .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
> > to complain about.
> >
> > Why isn't there an equivalently painless
> > solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
> > we've tried is a great mass of codependent
> > GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
> > user-friendly value-added front end.
>
> Back in the old days we used to debug with a logic analyser

I think you mis-spelled LED.

> and an ICE the size
> of a small house. The code was programmed into UV eraseable EPROMS. We could
> manage about 4 edit/compile/debug cycles per day. If you think ARM development
> is a pain, you don't know real pain

Who doesn't remember the smell of the ozone from the UV eraser!

On 4/18/2012 2:51 PM, Jim Stewart wrote:
> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
> lets me use assembly language with a single
> .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
> to complain about.
>
> Why isn't there an equivalently painless
> solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
> we've tried is a great mass of codependent
> GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
> user-friendly value-added front end.
>
>

Maybe you need to go next door for a little management training solution !

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1403+5...I9YnNjtH4jgBkQ

On 2012-04-18, Bob <> wrote:
> On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 21:51:18 UTC+1, Jim Stewart wrote:

>> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great, lets me use assembly
>> language with a single .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much to
>> complain about.
>>
>> Why isn't there an equivalently painless solution for the small ARM
>> devices?

For starters, one man's "painless" is another man's "painful".

>> Everything we've tried is a great mass of codependent GNU software
>> stuck together with a less-than- user-friendly value-added front end.
>
> Back in the old days we used to debug with a logic analyser and an
> ICE the size of a small house.

You had ICE and a logic analyzer? Lucky pup. I remember a lot of
projects that were developed using the just "edit-compile-burn-crash"
cycle with UV EPROMs. If you were lucky you had a spare port pin you
could toggle and an storage oscilloscope to look at the pin. Storage
scopes were rare and expensive, so more often that not you had to
settle for "I/O pin debugging" that was limitted to stuff in loops
that could run fast enough to light up the phospor frequently enough
to be visible.

And we had to walk to work and back in a blizzard -- up hill both
ways!

As one of the developers I worked with used to say "the best debugger
is looking at source code and thinking".

> The code was programmed into UV eraseable EPROMS. We could manage
> about 4 edit/compile/debug cycles per day. If you think ARM
> development is a pain, you don't know real pain
>
> To be serious though, the ARM dev systems I have used are pretty
> good. You have to pay a bit of learning curve for your 32 bits
> though. I would avoid anything Eclipse based or that requires
> external gdb servers though.

I tried AVR studio for a while and found it slow, clumsy, and overly
restrictive. Add in the fact that you had to use Windows to run, and I
dropped it pretty quickly and went back to an occasional diagnostic
"printf" and sometimes command-line gdb via JTAG or the like.

If you really want something more like AVR studio, a lot of people
seem to like Rowley CrossWorks. It's vendor and OS neutral, which
wins them a lot of points in my book.

I also know people who try to use Eclipse for Embedded work...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I feel like I am
at sharing a ``CORN-DOG''
gmail.com with NIKITA KHRUSCHEV ...

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:18 -0700, Jim Stewart wrote:

> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great, lets me use assembly
> language with a single .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much to
> complain about.
>
> Why isn't there an equivalently painless solution for the small ARM
> devices? Everything we've tried is a great mass of codependent GNU
> software stuck together with a less-than- user-friendly value-added
> front end.

Because you haven't gone out and built your own gnu toolset (Google for
"summon-arm-toolchain") along with your own startup code, then gone on to
have a ball?

gnu arm tool chain, gnu debugger, Eclipse -- joy.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:22:14 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:51:18 PM UTC-7, Jim Stewart wrote:
>> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great,
>> lets me use assembly language with a single
>> .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much
>> to complain about.
>>
>> Why isn't there an equivalently painless
>> solution for the small ARM devices? Everything
>> we've tried is a great mass of codependent
>> GNU software stuck together with a less-than-
>> user-friendly value-added front end.
>
>I don't find it a pain at all. I've used Rowley Crossworks with either Rowley or Segger JTAG devices, and it all works quite nicely. No one-pin debugging,

Do you mean serial wire debug (SWD)? If so, it is supported. Check under
"target interface type" in the JTAG properties.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

On 2012-04-18, Tim Wescott <> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:51:18 -0700, Jim Stewart wrote:
>
>> Ok, I'm spoiled by AVR Studio. Works great, lets me use assembly
>> language with a single .asm file, debugger takes one pin, not much to
>> complain about.
>>
>> Why isn't there an equivalently painless solution for the small ARM
>> devices? Everything we've tried is a great mass of codependent GNU
>> software stuck together with a less-than- user-friendly value-added
>> front end.
>
> Because you haven't gone out and built your own gnu toolset (Google for
> "summon-arm-toolchain") along with your own startup code, then gone on to
> have a ball?
>
> gnu arm tool chain, gnu debugger, Eclipse -- joy.

Or s/Eclips/emacs/g.

The point is you have lots of choices. It's not a one-suit-fits
everybody situation.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Am I having fun yet?
at
gmail.com