Asus Mobo P6X58D-E, backing up and configure SATA as IDE

Discussion in 'Asus' started by Sam, May 30, 2010.

  1. Sam

    Sam Guest

    I just got a brand new build with Windows 7 Pro. The first thing I
    noticed is that the Asus BIOS screen shows no hard drives detected, yet
    left alone everything boots up just fine.

    I wanted to backup my HD using Acronis 11 Backup S/W from USB dongle.
    Unfortunately, Acronis doesnt detect the SATA drive, just my USB IOMEGA
    drive.

    As I am old school, what is this "Configure SATA as IDE, RAID, and AHCI?

    How do I get Acronis to detect the HD? Are the BIOS settings wrong?

    Thanks
     
    Sam, May 30, 2010
    #1
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  2. Sam

    Paul Guest

    Looking at the specs listed in the manual -

    ICH10R Southbridge SATA - 6 ports
    Marvell 88SE9128 SATA 6Gb/sec - 2 ports

    First, check where the drive is plugged in.

    My guess is, you've plugged into one of the Marvell ports,
    rather than the Intel Southbridge. Try an Intel port instead.

    *******

    Actually, you have more than the options you list.

    There is "SATA Configuration" [ Compatible, Enhanced ]

    Compatible, runs hard drives as if they were plugged into
    two IDE ribbon cables. In other words, the OS thinks the
    SATA drives are IDE ribbon cable drives. Compatible mode
    should support up to four drives (just like a motherboard with
    two ribbon cables would be able to), and uses IRQ14 and IRQ15.
    Such an operating mode, would work out of the box with Win98.
    Who knows, it might even work with DOS (which might help with
    any utilities that are DOS-like).

    "Enhanced" maps the drive controllers into the PCI space.
    Depending on the OS service pack level, you may need
    a driver to get this to work. But you also get all six
    SATA ports supported and operating in this mode. (You
    might see driver files like atapi.sys, pciide.sys,
    pciidex.sys - that is what my Intel Southbridge is using
    right now, and I think those drivers were part of WinXP
    SP3.)

    Enhanced-IDE would have the controllers sitting in the PCI
    space, with no special properties. Hot-plug doesn't work,
    and there would be no native command queuing. Not a big deal
    really.

    Enhanced-AHCI does a few things. It makes transition to Intel
    RAID possible later. It supports hot-plug, so you can plug in
    a hard drive data cable while the computer is running. (Some
    hot-swap trays would work with this as well.) It supports
    NCQ or native command queuing. On a server system, where the
    queue of commands can build due to multiple tasks issuing
    disk commands, NCQ makes it possible to answer the commands
    in a different order than they were issued. Sort of like disconnect
    and reselect on SCSI. NCQ is not necessarily a win for a desktop
    user though, but if the computer was functioning as a server, it
    might help. If NCQ is used for a desktop user, the overhead may be
    larger than without it.

    Enhanced-RAID supports RAID operation with the Intel SATA ports.
    For example, four drives in RAID 5, have one drive allocated for
    parity information, making it possible to trash one disk, and yet
    be able to continue using the array. Parity is distributed
    over the four drives, such that one drive can be removed, and
    the missing drive's data can be recomputed using XOR operations.

    *******

    The manual is a bit fuzzy about what the Marvell supports. On
    the one hand, the manual claims pressing control-M while in the
    BIOS, brings up a Marvell RAID configuration screen, and yet that
    screen is not documented. The text description for the Marvell,
    seems to suggest is supports IDE and AHCI.

    In any case, when the BIOS starts up, there should be a "clear screen"
    operation, followed by some mention of Marvell printed on the screen,
    and any drives connected to the Marvell, should be displayed at that
    moment in time. So there is detection info, but it shows on a
    "transient screen" that disappears pretty quick.

    If the control-M thing really worked, you'd have a RAID setup screen
    to look at, and in such a screen, the detected drives should also be
    shown. But at this point, I find the manual confusing about whether
    there really is a RAID screen for the Marvell chip or not.

    In any case, if you're on a Marvell SATA port, and want to try
    something else, try moving the drive to an Intel port. And then
    you should see the drive detected, in one of the BIOS setup pages.

    Any third party tools, are going to have the most luck with
    things like Southbridge ports (especially if they're not
    in RAID mode). For chips like the Marvell, they're going to
    need a driver from somewhere, unless the third party tool can
    use Extended INT 0x13 calls to do what is necessary. Perhaps that
    is why Acronis can't see the drive on your Marvell port ?

    Paul
     
    Paul, May 30, 2010
    #2
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  3. Sam

    Sam Guest

    Paul wrote:

    : Looking at the specs listed in the manual -
    :
    : ICH10R Southbridge SATA - 6 ports
    : Marvell 88SE9128 SATA 6Gb/sec - 2 ports
    :
    : First, check where the drive is plugged in.
    :
    : My guess is, you've plugged into one of the Marvell ports,
    : rather than the Intel Southbridge. Try an Intel port instead.

    ThanksPaul!

    I download the latest version of Acronis and I ran the rescue disk
    from the CD. Acronis was able to detect the hard drive. My WD does
    use SATA 6 GB and you're guess is spot-on! :)
    However, it is a bit disconcerting to see during boot that there is no
    hard drive detected.

    : *******
    :
    : Actually, you have more than the options you list.
    :
    : There is "SATA Configuration" [ Compatible, Enhanced ]
    :
    : Compatible, runs hard drives as if they were plugged into
    : two IDE ribbon cables. In other words, the OS thinks the
    : SATA drives are IDE ribbon cable drives. Compatible mode
    : should support up to four drives (just like a motherboard with
    : two ribbon cables would be able to), and uses IRQ14 and IRQ15.
    : Such an operating mode, would work out of the box with Win98.
    : Who knows, it might even work with DOS (which might help with
    : any utilities that are DOS-like).

    Would there be any performance degradation issues in this emulation
    mode?

    : "Enhanced" maps the drive controllers into the PCI space.
    : Depending on the OS service pack level, you may need
    : a driver to get this to work. But you also get all six
    : SATA ports supported and operating in this mode. (You
    : might see driver files like atapi.sys, pciide.sys,
    : pciidex.sys - that is what my Intel Southbridge is using
    : right now, and I think those drivers were part of WinXP
    : SP3.)

    : Enhanced-IDE would have the controllers sitting in the PCI
    : space, with no special properties. Hot-plug doesn't work,
    : and there would be no native command queuing. Not a big deal
    : really.

    My mobo doesn't support "Enhanced" IDE. I am looking at page 3-10.
    Unless IDE is actually Enhanced" IDE
    :
    : Enhanced-AHCI does a few things. It makes transition to Intel
    : RAID possible later. It supports hot-plug, so you can plug in
    : a hard drive data cable while the computer is running. (Some
    : hot-swap trays would work with this as well.) It supports
    : NCQ or native command queuing. On a server system, where the
    : queue of commands can build due to multiple tasks issuing
    : disk commands, NCQ makes it possible to answer the commands
    : in a different order than they were issued. Sort of like disconnect
    : and reselect on SCSI. NCQ is not necessarily a win for a desktop
    : user though, but if the computer was functioning as a server, it
    : might help. If NCQ is used for a desktop user, the overhead may be
    : larger than without it.

    Ditto here too. I am looking at page 3-10
    :
    : Enhanced-RAID supports RAID operation with the Intel SATA ports.
    : For example, four drives in RAID 5, have one drive allocated for
    : parity information, making it possible to trash one disk, and yet
    : be able to continue using the array. Parity is distributed
    : over the four drives, such that one drive can be removed, and
    : the missing drive's data can be recomputed using XOR operations.
    :
    : *******
    :
    : The manual is a bit fuzzy about what the Marvell supports. On
    : the one hand, the manual claims pressing control-M while in the
    : BIOS, brings up a Marvell RAID configuration screen, and yet that
    : screen is not documented. The text description for the Marvell,
    : seems to suggest is supports IDE and AHCI.
    :
    : In any case, when the BIOS starts up, there should be a "clear
    screen"
    : operation, followed by some mention of Marvell printed on the
    screen,
    : and any drives connected to the Marvell, should be displayed at that
    : moment in time. So there is detection info, but it shows on a
    : "transient screen" that disappears pretty quick.

    The BIOS boot is a real nuisance. It boots automatically to this
    "Express Gate Splash Screen". I'll be turning it off as I can see no
    use. The manual indicates that EG doesn't support devices in SATA 6
    mode, yet the mobo has controllers that run in SATA 6.
    :
    : If the control-M thing really worked, you'd have a RAID setup screen
    : to look at, and in such a screen, the detected drives should also be
    : shown. But at this point, I find the manual confusing about whether
    : there really is a RAID screen for the Marvell chip or not.
    :
    Where in the manual did u see the control M option?

    : In any case, if you're on a Marvell SATA port, and want to try
    : something else, try moving the drive to an Intel port. And then
    : you should see the drive detected, in one of the BIOS setup pages.
    :
    : Any third party tools, are going to have the most luck with
    : things like Southbridge ports (especially if they're not
    : in RAID mode). For chips like the Marvell, they're going to
    : need a driver from somewhere, unless the third party tool can
    : use Extended INT 0x13 calls to do what is necessary. Perhaps that
    : is why Acronis can't see the drive on your Marvell port ?

    It seems to be the case as version 2010 detects the SATA.
     
    Sam, May 30, 2010
    #3
  4. Sam

    Paul Guest

    Not that I know of.
    "Sata Configuration" [ Compatible ]

    "Sata Configuration" [ Enhanced ]
    Configure SATA as [ IDE ]
    Configure SATA as [ RAID ]
    Configure SATA as [ AHCI ]

    There should be a total of four ways to set things up. Compatible
    is very similar to Enhanced-IDE, in terms of the feature set.
    Remember that the purpose of Compatible, is to make it possible
    to use OSes like Windows 98, so there won't be any fancy AHCI or
    RAID involved. The only detail with Compatible, is deciding which
    four SATA ports will be supported by that mode. Motherboards
    back in those days, used IRQ14 and IRQ15, used two ribbon cables,
    and supported up to four hard drives. And Compatible mode is
    intended to do the same thing as those old motherboards.

    Section 2.8.3 Internal Connectors
    2. Marvell Serial ATA 6Gb/s connectors
    Paul
     
    Paul, May 30, 2010
    #4
  5. Sam

    Sjouke Burry Guest

    By configuring as ide.
     
    Sjouke Burry, May 30, 2010
    #5
  6. Sam

    Sam Guest

    : : > How do I get Acronis to detect the HD? Are the BIOS settings
    wrong?
    : >
    : By configuring as ide.

    That was the initial setting, set to IDE.
     
    Sam, Jun 3, 2010
    #6
  7. Sam

    Sam Guest

    :
    : There should be a total of four ways to set things up. Compatible
    : is very similar to Enhanced-IDE, in terms of the feature set.
    : Remember that the purpose of Compatible, is to make it possible
    : to use OSes like Windows 98, so there won't be any fancy AHCI or
    : RAID involved. The only detail with Compatible, is deciding which
    : four SATA ports will be supported by that mode. Motherboards
    : back in those days, used IRQ14 and IRQ15, used two ribbon cables,
    : and supported up to four hard drives. And Compatible mode is
    : intended to do the same thing as those old motherboards.

    What configuration would you suggest since I am using a SATA 6 GB
    drive? Also, I noticed the PC Builder didnt use an SATA 6 cable and
    had the HD plugged into the SATA 2 port. I changed this to SATA 6 GBs
    port and connected a SATA 6 cable.
     
    Sam, Jun 3, 2010
    #7
  8. Sam

    Paul Guest

    You would use the SATA interface, which works with everything
    you do. If Acronis won't detect your WD SATA III drive on your add-on
    SATA III port, then that doesn't sound like a very practical
    way of using the drive. Perhaps the SATA II ports are the right
    answer in that case.

    In terms of drive performance, there are three issues to consider:

    1) Burst to cache. A SATA 6gbit/sec interface could transfer
    user data at a theoretical max of 600MB/sec. The hard drive
    has a relatively small cache memory on it (32MB ?). The main
    advantage of 6gbit/sec interconnect, is for data bursts which
    fit entirely in the memory cache chip. This is most visible
    and measurable with synthetic benchmarks.

    2) Sustained transfer rate. The drive is limited by the rate that
    the head writes data to the platter. A typical 7200RPM drive
    might manage 125MB/sec. Thus, the 600MB/sec cabling does nothing
    to help you there. A 300MB/sec cable works just as well, to
    support the 125MB/sec sustained (head-limited) transfer rate.
    If you're transferring a DVD-9 movie from one hard drive to the
    other hard drive, the disk drive heads limit the transfer rate
    to 125MB/sec.

    3) Seek time. It takes time to move the head assembly from one track
    to another. If you're accessing 10000 small files at random locations,
    most of the time is spent moving the heads around. The time spent
    using the cable to transfer the files, is almost zero. It doesn't
    really matter whether the interface is SATA I, II, or III, as
    seeking is really, really, slow. If you benchmark the transfer
    time for 10000 small files, the resulting MB/sec value will look
    pathetic to you. And seek time is to blame for this.

    So this discussion about fancy cabling, is only relevant to (1). In
    real world circumstances, it will be hard or impossible, to detect the
    difference between using 3Gbit/sec or 6Gbit/sec cabling and interfaces.
    While certain benchmarks may make you feel pretty happy, in actual
    usage it might not be nearly as different or impressive. On my current
    computer, with its Core2 processor, most of what I do is slow slow slow
    because of hard drives.

    If, on the other hand, you use a Flash SSD drive on the computer,
    then it is possible the fancy 6gbit/sec interface is worth while to use.
    But for your 7200 RPM hard drive, it really doesn't matter what SATA
    interface you use.

    This is an example of a SATA III SSD. Notice one reviewer's comment,
    that writing is still slow, at 135MB/sec. But the seek time is close
    to zero, which makes a big difference to performance. You can read
    10000 random files, and the time interval between each read operation,
    is less than 100 microseconds. Which is much better than any hard drive.
    Devices like this don't make everything seem fast, but they help.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148348

    The larger version of that product, is twice as expensive, but may
    have better write performance. If you read the customer reviews,
    face it, these SSDs are toys. Your hard drive is much more
    reliable and dependable, and doesn't need "tuning" or "polishing".
    With a hard drive, you just use it (assuming you didn't get
    one of the annoying "Advanced format" 4Kbyte sector hard drives).
    With hard drives, as long as the shipping method doesn't damage
    them, they're quite good on dependability. I haven't had a failure
    in some time. I think my last failure was a Maxtor 40GB. But
    if you have money to spend, you can have a lot of fun playing
    with an SSD. Just make sure you have backups of the SSD.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jun 3, 2010
    #8
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