Athlon 64 X2 4600+ (939) & Abit AN8 'Fatal1ty': Compatible?

Discussion in 'Abit' started by aether, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. I think you know what I mean - not that BHP is all that useful as a measure
    of truck performance anyway but the high powered, recent-model Euro-trucks
    are no slouches. Have you not seen the racing series?:) I've certainly
    seen long-haul Volvos and M-Bs around here and I did not notice any
    particular sluggishness in trucks on recent visits to France or the U.K....
    just as much a nuisance as they are in the U.S. but with maybe a bit more
    discipline on lane usage.
    An efficient rail system should be much faster than any road transport and
    it'd save a lot of costs on road repairs and aggravation. Even the rail
    system we have, as bad as it is in some parts of the U.S., could easily
    compete on cost and shipping time... if it didn't have to go up against the
    err, Teamsters.:-(
    "Possibilities" or "likely"? Sorry but you're being awfully presumptious
    in concocting a contorted scenario and with no knowledge of the facts. Oh
    and stills of TV footage are easy to recognize.
    I've already said, I believe the solution has to come from within the
    Islamic "world". All that's been published so far, that I've seen, is that
    they're "worried about a backlash against innocent, peaceful Muslims". I
    just hope that someone in "authority" in the U.K. is having umm,
    discussions with their senior clerics and suggesting it's about time to
    clean their "house"... locally at least.

    As for enemies within, this one is of a new cast and with a brazen dogma
    which makes our most devout members of any current Western faith or belief
    system appear quite relaxed and easy going. Hell there are calls from the
    U.K. extremists to establish a caliphate there. That's treasonous.
    All I've seen on that is that it is a highly speculative theory which is so
    far being dismissed by the investigators (no timing device residue)... and
    it doesn't make much sense to me, nor, from my POV, to the bombers.
    Zealous or just stupid does not change the result nor the prognosis.
    George Macdonald, Jul 20, 2005
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  2. I think the landed gentry do have a nostalgia for the "old days". If by
    "far right" you mean neo-Nazi I haven't seen any of that, though it does
    exist to some extent everywhere. That's not what I was referring to though
    with the distaste, which is more to do with association with the
    self-supposed divinely righted indolent.
    Economies go through cycles. I do wonder sometimes how the French, in
    particular, are able to offer themselves such luxuries as the TGV and the
    Paris Metro; then there's the Brits who had by far the best rail system in
    the world and they managed to **** it all up.

    At any rate, I believe that one of the things that's happened here is that
    just when the up-cycle should have kicked in, an EU enlargement squelched
    it, all aggravated by the EU central planning "initiatives"... and it's a
    *lot* bigger than a few plumbers: major industrial projects are crossing
    the old frontiers, and the jobs with them - another point of resentment
    against the EC.
    George Macdonald, Jul 20, 2005
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  3. Ah, a railroad romantic. I gotta admit a freight at speed
    is a marvelous sight. Unfortunately, that's the easy part.
    I've worked as a dispatcher. Freight doesn't shunt itself
    (pax do!) and those cars need to be switched along just
    barely enough siding. Modern humping helps.

    Rail is good for certain kinds of freight -- high volume/weight
    and relatively low value. Point-to-point. If you rail
    freight is a slam-dunk, why do the Euros and Japanese still
    have a lot of road trucks?

    Sure, there are improvements possible in the us. I believe
    intermodal with truck pickup & delivery of 40ft containers
    to railheads is increasing.
    Well, you haven't described it fully in one place.
    Perhaps some if the frame is showing. You didn't say
    who inspected the polaroids closely.
    Because that's all that would sell here. Absence of
    proof isn't proof of absence.
    As was the US Revolution. All treason isn't bad.
    Notice how the story got picked up, though.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 21, 2005
  4. They might well. It wasn't their nostalgia I was referring to.
    I was saying that I haven't seen any nostalgia for the class-system
    in the masses of common people in Europe.
    I'm not entirely sure they're luxuries (whatever those are),
    but it's extremely easy: tax and spend.
    err ... Teamsters? :)
    A self-justifying logic. How do you know macro economies go
    in these "cycles", and how do you know it would have turned up?
    Watch out -- you might find yourself arguing for the dismal science!

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 21, 2005
  5. aether

    Nate Edel Guest

    As Benjamin Franklin is reported to have said, rebellion is only treason in
    the third person.
    Nate Edel, Jul 21, 2005
  6. Antiquated methods... lack of vision/investment.
    I didn't say the Euros were more enlightened here.:)
    That is the way! If you look at the transformation in the sea-ports and
    trans-oceanic shipping, it's kinda obvious that with the right kinds of
    rail freight terminals and local trucking, there are huge improvements
    possible... both in terms of cost, efficiency and (one of your favorites
    :)) reduction in petroleum consumption. You'd need excellent (adaptive)
    scheduling but that is all possible.
    I figured you might accept some of the facts without a detailed sketch,
    which I'd rather not get into... and a frame is not necessary to recognize
    a photo of a TV image at 525 interlaced.
    The evidence is kinda obvious - in your face even. The extreme Muslim
    clerics in the U.K. are now even more belligerent - I believe they *want*
    to be deported now and I hope they get their wish.
    The govt. in power still has the right/obligation to punish seditious
    behavior, especially when it's coming from non-citizen "guests"... and the
    U.S. revolution was a wee bit different in that respect. For those
    claiming birthrights one can always adopt the Swiss model for citizenship
    qualification... something I've always considered vaguely fascist but......
    George Macdonald, Jul 21, 2005
  7. In the masses, I don't see much different there from the social layering
    based on economic status that we have in the U.S. I think we agree on the
    distaste for having to continue dealing with their social anachronisms...
    even worse when it comes to the "parvenus" who think they've err,
    It's just that compared with others, the French rail systems are superb...
    IOW a luxury. The Paris Metro, in particular, has no comparison in any
    other place that I've seen, including Tokyo.
    No, the unions had been neutralized long before the Tories
    (Thatcher/Major[clueless git]) embarked on their entrepreneurial
    adventurism. The U.K.s perpetual economic problems have as much to do with
    incompetent management as zealous unions - it's a different system, with
    inherited class system expectations. It was "management" who created un
    unmanagable web of bickering companies to run a "railroad". Personally I
    don't think you can run a top class rail system without taxation subsidies
    - the historical evidence supports me there... and it *is* a national
    Maybe but if anyone believes that the revitalisation of the Irish and East
    German economies has not hurt other EU national economies, they're
    dreaming. Maybe it's not "zero sum" but it's damned close.:)
    George Macdonald, Jul 21, 2005
  8. Well, absolutely large (and will be pursued) but NOT relatively
    large :) The US already moves 3x more freight by rail than
    interstate trucking:
    have a look at table 1052 for 1999 (latest avail):
    Rail 1499 billion ton-miles
    ICC truck 499
    non-ICC truck 594

    local trucks already carry more than long-haul. Yes,
    long haul is increasing fast but this is to be expected
    as the economy produces more and more high value goods.
    Your AMD Venice CPUs go by truck if not air.
    Very difficult to comment, then. Facts I accept, but need
    enough. I'm afraid I accept very few conclusions from others.
    It takes data. All I have here is some kids had Polaroids of
    9/11 around 7pm in a place 1.5h from ground zero. Obviously
    couldn't have driven in to get them if they were taken on-site.
    If not from TV, were taken by someone in place with a camera.
    Could be visiting friend/family doing the tourist thing. Could be
    friend/family evac'd. I doubt the complicit or conspirators
    would show anything to kids -- they're known blabbermouths.
    Sometimes, depending on the sharpness of the monitor and
    focus of the camera lens. The raster lines aren't always visible.
    In the UK, there is very little to stop their deportation.
    Sedition _is_ a crime in the UK. Not in the US where it has
    to elevate to treason before it becomes a crime.
    I think even the US can revoke visas for sedition.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 22, 2005
  9. Sure there is. Money counts for less and family/breeding more
    in the EU. Family only much counts here through money.
    le metro is excellent, mostly for the density of stations.
    Tokyo is hobbled by two competing subsway companies, plus JR.
    Even New York amalgamated it's system. I think Paris had
    one competing company, but not for long. Tokyo also is a
    bit of a ring city around the Imperial Palace grounds and
    this topography complicates design.
    Well, what about other national infrastructure, like phone system?
    Pipelines? Airlines? Subsidies are necessary when other competing
    alternatives are preferred [cheaper] so pricing makes the venture
    non-viable. Much rail passenger traffic falls into this class.
    Not freight.
    Hmm ... that's an odd way of looking at it. Prosperity in one
    place diminishing it in another? [Relative prosperity, sure]
    But did the growth of America impoverish Europe? England grew
    enormously from trade with the US. Does the growth in India and
    China impoverish America today? IMHO, cheap imports are a major
    factor restraining inflation from the staggering US household,
    govt and trade deficits We'll see what happens now that China
    has revalued the yuan.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 22, 2005
  10. I'm wondering why you focus on *my* "AMD Venice"? Are you recalling the
    bent pins?:) A cross-country trip should certainly be faster by rail;
    with the right terminal/local facilities, the end result should be an
    improvement, as I see it. The difference in total environmental impact is

    As for the increase in long-haul, from my observations, the level of
    surveillance has decreased over recent years so that many trucks are
    overloaded. The results in the rate of deterioration of roads and
    occurence of mobile road-blocks is striking... here in NJ at any rate. IOW
    "increase" operates in two senses here and real costs are hard to figure.
    I suspect you did not read the details correctly and your data definitely
    got garbled: I don't know from where you got 7pm?? As already stated: on
    9/12 the kids of the local gas station manager, huddled in front of the
    store entrance, were babbling/gloating over pics of planes *hitting* the
    WTC and the aftermath. When asked, they said they'd been "down there
    yesterday in Hoboken at 7.30 *am*", i.e. ~1hr20min before the first impact.
    I've explained all the rest - the chances of this being an opportunistic
    event are nil IMO.
    There's more than raster lines - TV photos have a certain image "quality"
    which I don't think is hard to determine... unless they're so bad that the
    image itself is hard to make out.
    I have to think the govt. is afraid of the possibility of a backlash by
    the supposedly non-violent fundamentalist Muslim population. It *could*
    also violate some EU human rights regs.:-(
    George Macdonald, Jul 23, 2005
  11. Sorry but I never saw that among friends, colleagues, relatives etc... all
    outside the "upper-crust", where my acquaintance is err, limited.:)
    Paris never had a "competing company" in the >30years I've known it but I
    see it as a luxury in terms of the tire/rail system (mind-boggling cost),
    convenience, comfort, frequency and especially fare cost. Obviously it
    cannot self-sustain through the fares charged, though it *is* helped by its
    limitation on distance (basically inside the peripherique) and the compact
    habitation of Paris itself.

    By comparison, London is girding up to perform the same mischief on the
    management/running of the Tube as was done to the national rail system; the
    guy who "fixed" the NYC subway system was employed at great expense and
    told them how to proceed but his advice was ignored.
    Difficult questions. How much should the govt. subsidize airlines which
    are chronically in debt, like e.g. UAL?<shrug>? Where they can
    self-sustain that's fine but I see rail as a special case - you have to
    look at it long-term wrt things like rights of way and infrastructure
    maintenance. The return to trams and inner-city light rail in Europe and
    the U.S. is quite a lesson when you consider how short a time since the
    infrastructure was ripped out in many cities.
    When EU subsidies and tax incentives are biased according to perceived (by
    some elite bureaucrat in brussels) needs... yes. There are specific
    examples: Siemens had a newish memory fab near Newcastle, England; when the
    German reunification happened and E. Germany was nominated as an economic
    zone for "stimulation", the Newcastle plant was closed & stripped, Infineon
    was created and voila we had new memory fabs with fresh jobs in Dresden...
    and fresh unemployment in Newcastle. There are loads of other similar
    examples... institutionalized madness.
    Well the Yuan revaluation is "limited" and AFAICT, looks like a token
    gesture for the moment. We'll see. As for cheap imports and inflation vs.
    trade deficit.... chicken or egg?
    George Macdonald, Jul 23, 2005
  12. 'cuz I'm envious! doh :)

    It is, however, an example of a high value shipment that
    justifies higher-order (more secure) transportation.
    I very much doubt it. The standing stock (rail lines) won't
    take very high speeds, nor will the rolling stock. Then you
    have the inevitable delays at humping yards. I'm very certain
    a dual-driver tractor-trailer could beat a std freight.
    And likely even a thru-express unless it had _perfect_
    scheduling and didn't have to wait for any sections to clear.
    You do know the RR safety rules?
    I'm not even sure it's that large. RR diesels are _dirty_.
    They still burn high-sulfur, and the cheapest oil they can buy.
    I believe most of the overloading is on local end runs where
    surveillance is nearly impossible. This would actually _increase_
    with increased rail because trucks will still provide the local
    end. Unless you are thinking of pushing sidings everywhere,
    and getting massive delays for motorists while shunting.
    good Polaroid shots unless you have a Hasselblad with 300+mm lens
    on a tripod. Across three miles of water, the 1350' towers would
    appear about 5/16" tall on a Polaroid with a normal lens.

    I presume you were looked at shots of the WTC2 hit. But from
    Hoboken (to the NW), they would have been obscured by WTC1
    burning, and WTC2 was hit on the south face, fireballing east.
    See if any of these twigs some memory:
    Yes, but Polaroids are little better :)
    I think the govt has more to fear from the non-Muslim
    population if they don't "do something"
    Almost certainly. However, that's more likely to _win_
    the govt votes. They won't care.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 25, 2005
  13. No, I think it was earlier. One short line on the Right Bank.
    Huh? Montreal and DC chose tire/rail, and I think for good reason.
    Better ride, faster starts & stops. I don't think the cost
    is excessive. Digging the hole & stations costs the money.
    I'm not so sure its worse than others. Yes, Paris have very
    attractive subway fares. Particularly the multi-ride and
    season pass pricing. But I'm not sure this hurts their
    total revenue stream. The cost of running a subway is
    more-or-less independant of ridership. They're going to be
    full at rush hours. The trick is to attract off-peak riders.

    This is a revenue maximization exercise, and even with a
    monopoly, that isn't with maximum prices. The shape of
    the demand curve must be carefully plotted. Usually good
    discounts give high volumes, which is very important.
    Much less when there are success stories like SWA!
    I thought most of this was due to earmarked taxes.
    On a microscale with tax distortions, certainly.
    I'm a bit surprised Newcastle didn't match.
    This is an ugly game.
    Yes, they say 2%. But that's going to hit many inflation
    components, often by reflection.
    Yes on both.
    Sure. But either way, inflation results.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 25, 2005
  14. Trucking... high order?... secure? Nothing "falls" off the back?;-)
    I didn't say you could do it with current stock/rails and I'd already
    mentioned the anachronism of humping yards. It's ultimately a better
    investment than the waste on the trucking system.
    They don't have to be dirty - that's only a contemporary choice. Are you
    saying the EPA has no mandate to control locomotive emissions?... seems
    odd. The diesel electric is a far more efficient "engine" than the
    thousands of smoke belching trucks I see - add in hybrid electrics and even
    pure electrics where possible and you can burn way less petro-fuel... if
    you've a mind to.
    We used to see regular surveillance around here a few years ago.
    You're reading way more detail than even I have and 3 miles is a bit of an
    exaggeration even from the center of Hoboken.
    Look the photos existed the next day - the guys who had them claimed to
    have taken them and were gloating over them. That's enough to get me
    worried but I'd suggest you argue with them... if you can find them.
    Depends on the "Polaroid" device and even that may have been a mistake - I
    did not personally examine the results. For all I know they could have been
    done with a cheap digicam and were digital enlargements... easy enough.
    They've been twiddling their thumbs for long enough. Hey, maybe Enoch
    Powell was right after all.:)
    George Macdonald, Jul 25, 2005
  15. There's no doubt that it *is* expensive to build *and* maintain, especially
    considering that Paris' system was a conversion job and no rerouting could
    be done to accomodate the rollways or guides... and service was not
    interrupted during the conversion... and it's still a dual system with
    standard gauge rails. Obviously there's no comparison with Montreal or DC
    when it comes to the scale of the systems. RATP decided to quit doing
    conversions because of the costs.
    It's a flat fare system. I've no idea what discounts might exist beyond a
    "carnet" which does not save much - don't recall recent numbers. Riding
    the Tube in London certainly hurts the pocket of the passenger a *lot*
    Newcastle did not have the same EU err, incentives.
    George Macdonald, Jul 25, 2005
  16. 'corse it does in NJ :) Things fall out of armored cars there.
    Huh? What's better than a fully automated humping yard?
    Split trains maybe, but they need to be assembled in an
    ultra-wide humping yard! This whole thing is a massive
    "Towers of Hanoi" puzzle. And all the computer power in the
    world won't get around the moves.
    They do, but not under the same legislation. The sources
    are far more diffuse and on private land. Like construction.
    Huh? Have you ever seen diesel electric exhaust? The motor
    efficiency isn't much better (diesels throttle well). The
    electrics are only used because it's the easiest type of
    transmission design over the staggeringly wide range required.

    Rail is efficient mostly due to lower wind and rolling resistance.
    Two words: Battery weight.
    So lobby your state politicians. If they're not too busy
    falling off the back of trucks :) Then maybe de-elect'em.
    Why not read the details? At least they're physical facts,
    not personal statements which might be mistaken or lies.
    If you want to draw strong conclusions, you'd best have
    strong evidence.
    OK -- less than 1/2" high at 2 miles.
    You think they're bad guys, but then believe what they say?
    Maybe they were just pressing your buttons.
    Sure. But the math then works out as 150 pixels high from
    a 2.0MP camera. [email protected] -- NTSC is better! I suspect the photos
    were from the web (hence my reference).
    I presume you're referring to the so-called "Rivers of
    Blood" speech, and not:

    - I will not surrender responsibility for my life and my actions.

    - If I cannot understand my friend's silence, I will never get
    to understand his words.

    - If my ship sails from sight, it doesn't mean my journey ends,
    it simply means the river bends.

    - No battle is worth fighting except the last one.

    - Remove advertising, disable a person or firm from
    preconising its wares and their merits, and the whole of
    society and of the economy is transformed. The enemies of
    advertising are enemies of freedom.

    - When I repress my emotion my stomach keeps score.
    [John Enoch Powell]

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 26, 2005
  17. _Everything_ is. The real question is cost/benefit.
    All of which makes it horrendously more expensive.
    Quite possible not worth the differential benefits.
    Both were more than adequate scale. The real difference
    is that both were started as rubber & rail. So the cost
    differential was not nearly as large as afterconversion.
    So in NYC and most places outside of Germany and Japan
    who are big into zones. What the zones do is encourage
    shorter trips (tying up stations) and this isn't very
    good when there's a defined [congested] downtown.
    Certainly. And they deter users. Maybe London has less
    capacity, so this is optimum for them. Paris might be
    overbuilt, and has to lower prices to maximize revenue.
    Outstanding! An object lesson for one and all
    not to give the EU too much power. Very clear, very
    concrete. Lots of grist for the UK political mill.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 26, 2005
  18. aether

    Tony Hill Guest

    One thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of indirect benefits
    to having people ride subway systems that can be factored in. Some
    are fairly obvious, ie fewer road repairs due to less traffic. But
    also think of the (HUGE) tourist industry in Paris that benefits quite
    strongly from Le Metro.

    It's not easy to factor these things into a simple plot, but they are
    things that must be considered in costs. Government subsidies of this
    sort of thing make sense when the tourists bring in lots of money that
    filters back to government coffers.
    Tony Hill, Jul 26, 2005
  19. Yes. There are a lot of indirects.

    Access: more people moved at the same congestion from
    driven and parking cars is probably the biggest benefit.
    Paris might be sprawled like LA without the metro.

    -- Robert
    Robert Redelmeier, Jul 27, 2005
  20. I think that's been my point: as cost/benefit increases, which applies
    here, you have a relative "luxury".
    I meant that neither is anywhere near the size of the Paris system.
    London has a much wider spread and much longer lines; in fact Paris is an
    amazingly compact city with very high population density.
    Oh it's not just the U.K. - a plant which made winter tires was closed in
    Sweden (or Norway ?) and moved to Spain, which had umm, incentives; Germany
    is currently feeling the brunt of Polish incentives. The fisheries
    policies are absolutely nuts: fishing boats which go over "by-catch" quota
    are forced to dump the dead fish back... as if it was possible to
    predetermine by-catch.
    George Macdonald, Jul 27, 2005
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