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ATI Confirms Next Generation PC GPU "Leverages XBOX 360 Design"

Discussion in 'ATI' started by Air Raid, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Air Raid

    Air Raid Guest

    ......................................................................................................................................
    ATI Confirms Next Generation "Leverages XBOX 360 Design"
    22-Feb-2006, 21:54.59 Reporter : Dave Baumann

    At a recent analyst session ATI's Senior VP of PC Business, Rick
    Bergman, has confirmed that their next generation of PC graphics
    products will feature much of the technology developed for "Xenos",
    ATI's XBOX 360 graphics chip. We've surmised that this is likely be
    the case previously, given that Xenos utilises a unified shader
    architecture at the hardware level, with both Pixel Shaders and Vertex
    shaders utilising the same ALU resources it becomes a ripe time to
    implement it with DirectX10 unifying the vertex and pixel shader
    programming capabilities in the API.

    Vertex and pixel processing have previously always been separate
    hardware functions, though vertex processing moved from a software
    based solution to hardware with the introduction of NVIDIA's GeForce
    256 and has subsequently got closer to the pixel processing capability
    with each revision of DirectX Shader Model, to the point where
    DirextX10 will should dictate the same programming capabilities across
    both. Even with this being the case there is nothing to suggest that
    the hardware has to be unified for processing as pixel operations
    generally have to hide greater latencies than vertex operations thanks
    to the greater use of texturing in the pipeline. However, Xenos's
    design has attempted to remove the texture latency issues from shader
    programmes by creating a highly threaded design that separates texture
    instructions from ALU instructions, allowing multiple shader batches to
    run concurrently, and so it comes as no surprise that ATI should adopt
    this architecture for the PC, seeing as the investment has already been
    made.
    ......................................................................................................................................

    http://beyond3d.com/#news28611
     
    Air Raid, Feb 22, 2006
    #1
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  2. Air Raid

    John Lewis Guest

    .... blah. blah, blah... (rest deleted)....

    .....as reporter obviously regurgitates meaningless ATi marketing
    blurb.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 23, 2006
    #2
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  3. ATI Confirms Next Generation "Leverages XBOX 360 Design"
    Translation (as I predicted when the ATI/MS deal was first announced):

    ATI is gonna be devoting all their resources to the XBOX, so PC hardware and
    drivers will only get whatever improvements trickle down from XBOX work :).
    --email: icbm: Delray Beach, FL |
    <URL:http://home.att.net/~Tom.Horsley> Free Software and Politics <<==+
     
    Thomas A. Horsley, Feb 23, 2006
    #3
  4. Air Raid

    arcanastream Guest

    Considering the tens of millions of Xbox 360s that are likely to sell
    (eventually), can you blame ATI for being Xbox-centric? I doubt they
    sell tens of millions of their $500 graphic cards for PCs.
     
    arcanastream, Feb 23, 2006
    #4
  5. Air Raid

    drocket Guest

    You say that like they're making $500/unit from the XBox 360. Its
    probably a lot closer to $100-$150 per XBox. They probably make more
    profit on a $500 video card than they do on 50 XBox 360s. At the same
    time, though, they'll probably sell 1000 XBox 360's for every $500
    video card (since only a few overly-wealthy geeks will blow that much
    cash just to get 4% more FPS in Doom 3...)

    Anyway, this announcement isn't anything particularly special:
    they've developed a marginally faster product and are trying to hype
    it (in this case, by tying it into the hype generated by the XBox 360
    launch.) In other news, the sun rose today, and north is still in the
    opposite direction of south.
     
    drocket, Feb 23, 2006
    #5
  6. Air Raid

    John Lewis Guest

    More like $20-$30 max. per Xbox360. They have only licensed the
    right to replicate the design, are not responsible for silicon
    production at all. and no doubt have negotiated a per-unit license
    fee with M$$.

    M$$ finances, schedules and is entirely responsible for the
    manufacturing builds of the GPU thru TSMC. ATi may be hauled in to
    tweak the design if design-related yield problems appear, and they and
    IBM probably have an upfront multimillion$$ monetary incentive to
    re-cast the Xbox360 GPU and CPU designs in 65nm ASAP to reduce
    the power-consumption.

    The current version of the Xbox360 runs too hot internally for its
    package size, with most of the heat being generated by the CPU
    and GPU. Once the internal heat-sinks clog with household junk
    (courtesy of the 2 internal fans) , the box will overheat - there is
    no way of accessing these heat-sinks for cleaning without special
    tools and voiding the M$$ warranty. The DVD-drive already runs too hot
    and temporarily discolors discs after several hours of continuous
    3D-gaming use of the Xbox360, since the stupid Xbox360 hardware
    designers jammed the GPU and CPU heatsinks right up against the
    DVD-drive.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 23, 2006
    #6
  7. Air Raid

    Blig Merk Guest

    XFLop only sold a little over 20 million over 5 years and the xflop
    three-shitty is off to a slower start with no flag-rallying trademark
    game so far and nothing on the horizon. The xflop three-shitty is
    basically turning into a PC-alternative PC port-box which might not be
    a good place to be in by next year.
    http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/18/nvidia_sli_sales/
    Nvidia sells 9 million SLI graphics processors
    18 Jan 2006
     
    Blig Merk, Feb 23, 2006
    #7
  8. Air Raid

    Blig Merk Guest

    Leverages to nothing. The X1900XL has the 48 shader processors and it
    is just barely faster in a few benchmarks than the 7800GTX which has
    been out since fall last year. The only game that is significantly
    faster with the X1900XL is FEAR and there is a lot of speculation that
    is just due to the shader coding used in FEAR. The 7900GTX with unified
    pixel vertex pipes comes out in a few weeks and it will shove X1900XL
    back to being just a contender again. The shader processor path
    apporach is not proving to be any big advantage and looks like it might
    be weaker in the months ahead.
     
    Blig Merk, Feb 23, 2006
    #8
  9. Air Raid

    XBOXOWNZ Guest

    Correct. But at least its a fairly major change unlike the short hops
    ATI and NVIDIA seem to be making with PC GPU's at the moment. XBOX is
    going to be a good thing for PC gaming.
     
    XBOXOWNZ, Feb 23, 2006
    #9
  10. Air Raid

    XBOXOWNZ Guest

    AT LEAST ATI ARE TRYING NEW THINGS UNLIKE NVIDIA WHICH JUST INCREASES
    CLOCK SPEED OR ADDS ANOTHER SHADER. EVENTUALLY NVIDIA WILL LAG FAR
    BEHIND LIKE IT DID A FEW YEARS AGO. YOUR JUST A NVIDIA FAN BOY WITH NO
    REAL FACTS ONLY HYPE.
     
    XBOXOWNZ, Feb 23, 2006
    #10
  11. Air Raid

    Zimmy Guest

    I can just see Blig Jerk sitting in front of his PC, seeing the latest
    Sony PS3 delays news with tears streaming down his face...

    "Damn you Sony! You have forsaken me!"

    I wonder if the PS3 was released was released last Nov and Xbox 360 was
    delayed, would he show the same restraint about the news???
     
    Zimmy, Feb 23, 2006
    #11
  12. Air Raid

    John Lewis Guest


    Er, did you accidentally drop your beer-bottle on the Shift key ?
    Or did you just misplace your spectacles ? Techno-twaddle anyway.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 23, 2006
    #12
  13. Air Raid

    Air Raid Guest

    last year Microsoft said they're working on year-2 and year-3 versions
    of Xbox 360.
    I'll wait for the year-2 version to come out. hopefully 65nm chips and
    re-arranged layout of the board & components will make it run
    flawlessly and last.
    I'm guessing the year-3 version will probably be a futher
    cost-reduction of a near-perfected year-2 design. okay I am just
    speculating on that. I'll be watching carefully for word of the year-2
    console arrival.
     
    Air Raid, Feb 24, 2006
    #13
  14. Air Raid

    Tim O Guest

    Snip very so-so specs.

    Wait until NVidia launches their new 9900XPSL GTS with twin vertex
    real time gigashaders, intercooled redundent fast jacket polymer
    coating, radiant revision real time dynamic flabbergasters and dual
    exhausts.

    Its so fast, they clocked it against reality and the graphics card was
    faster.
     
    Tim O, Feb 24, 2006
    #14
  15. whatever, Nvidiot.
     
    video-game dude, Feb 24, 2006
    #15
  16. Air Raid

    noman Guest

    I have rarely seen such factual anamolies in a 9-line post.

    There's no X1900XL. Not yet, any way. X1900XT and X1900XTX are both
    512 meg cards with very impressive performance numbers. They chomp
    down 7800GTX 256meg (in part because the 512meg is becoming some sort
    of an advantage) and are also mostly ahead of the paper-launched
    7800GTX-512 meg parts (that are selling for $750, if they can be found
    anywhere). In comparison X1900XT is now available for $470-480 at
    some places.

    FEAR is a 'The way it's meant to be played' game. The fact that it
    works well on X1900XT cards has a lot to do with its higher ALU:Tex
    ratio (something, which most new games will employ, including Oblivion)
    X1900XT are designed to make use of situations where the math
    operations in shaders far outweigh the texture usage.

    The 7900GTX is not based on unified architecture. It's very likely that
    even G80 (the next-gen nVidia chip) is also not unified. It doesn't
    mean that it'd be a bad performer or that the unified architecture is
    absolutely necessary. I am just correcting another mistake in the
    original post.

    Finally here are some comparison numbers between X1900XT, 7800GTX-256
    and 7800GTX-512 respectively.. 1600x1200 4xaa 16xaf

    HL2:Lost Coast 80.2 65.2 78.9
    Battlefield 2 109.7 68.6 89.4
    Quake 4 72.8 65.2 85.3
    FEAR 49 27 37
    CoD2 34.9 26.4 32.3
    Serious Sam 2 69.5 47.7 75.1
    Far Cry HDR 84.5 64.3 84.2

    http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x1900_xt_preview/

    When you add in features like FP-Blending+AA (which 7800GTX can't
    do and 7900GTX won't either), angle-independent AF and of course
    the forward looking shader:texture ratio, X1900XT at $480 is the best
    graphic card one can find in the $350+ range.
     
    noman, Feb 24, 2006
    #16
  17. big deal - they price their r&d into the xb360 design budget.
     
    Phil Da Lick!, Feb 24, 2006
    #17
  18. Thank you for this post. You saved me a lot of writing :)

    Tony
     
    Tony DiMarzio, Feb 24, 2006
    #18
  19. Air Raid

    John Lewis Guest

    Regurgitated techno-babble....
    More t-b.
    However, the way you have phrased the last few sentences
    you are trying to imply otherwise............ Anyway, maybe you
    should also repeat David Kirk's words on this particular subject,
    just to show that you are totally unbiased.
    Do you run all your games in this mode ? Must have your nose pressed
    to the screen counting the perfectly-aliased pixels - kinda cramps the
    shooting-style. Probably running on an LCD too. Hope you like the
    lag-smear.
    You could have saved up this exercise until after the 7900GT/GTX cards

    are released. Seems like a regurgitation of selected review material
    and ATi marketing blurb. However, no need to waste your time any
    further when I can refer to the in-depth technical reviews on
    Anandtech and other sites with professionally-qualified technical
    contributors to help formulate my opinions (and occasional
    purchase-decisions) on computer hardware.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 24, 2006
    #19
  20. Air Raid

    noman Guest

    It's a techno-babble which explains the performance discrepancies
    between X1900XT and 7800GTX class cards for a game that oddly
    proclaims the nVidia TWIMTBP slogan.
    I am not implying anything, except that 7900GTX will not have unified
    architecture (and very likely G80 won't either).

    To debate which architecture is better is outside the scope of this
    thread.
    Normally, if you buy a $400+ card, it's to handle such resolutions.
    What would be the point of running these cards at 1024x768 ? Besides
    that, when you are comparing graphic cards, you have to pick scenarios
    which stress the GPU and make CPU as little of a factor as it can be.

    By the way, I do have 20" Dell 2000FPW screen and it's absolutely
    wonderful. My next graphic card will be one which can perform great at
    1680x1050 level.
    If you were the sole reader of this newsgroup, I'd never post here.
    Fortunately that's not the case.

    I replied to the post which had completely incorrect information about
    both ATI and nVidia graphic cards.
     
    noman, Feb 24, 2006
    #20
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