Cases to take a quad Tyan board?

Discussion in 'Tyan' started by Richard, Nov 19, 2005.

  1. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Jim writes
    Dear Jim

    I know it's going back a bit but can I ask you about this business of PS
    not recognising that you have four cores. Whilst I can follow that you
    can easily verify that the OS sees your four cores, but how do you come
    to the conclusion that PS does not?
    Richard, Nov 20, 2005
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  2. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Sun, 20 Nov 2005, Roger Hamlett writes below Richard's
    Dear Roger

    My apologies for having neglected to reply sooner. You posting really
    gets down to the nub of the question and in the light of this I will
    test to determine where the greatest need or weakness lies. I presume
    that if Photoshop is doing a task and both CPU traces are showing less
    that full usage, then this indicates they are not the weak link on that
    particular operation with that sized file.


    Richard, Nov 20, 2005
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  3. Richard

    Bruce Burden Guest

    : Now to the main reason for this posting. What are the choices for
    : cases to fit this 16"x13" board in form factor SS MEB ? What power
    : supply to buy is also another question. I will be running 5 or 6 fast
    : SCSI drives on the system.
    Having looked at, it would appear that
    your options are limited to the case Tyan offers. I am not too
    surprised at this, as Server Case seems to stop at 12 x 13 inches
    for a MB size.

    It also looks to me like Tyan has the 1300W power supply in
    this case, which can cause a potential problem with an electric

    Also note that many cables are going to be too short for a
    case of this size. Longer cables exist, but do require some
    hunting to find them.

    Bruce Burden, Nov 21, 2005
  4. Richard

    BC Guest

    Dear Richard,

    from the headers on your message, looks like you are in UK, where
    prudent and sensible legislators voted down "Blair Force One", the
    expensive executive jet. Our fearless leader flies on Air Force One to
    various neglected disaster areas here, firing up all 4 huge jet
    turbines, in order to urge citizens to 'conserve fuel'.
    From Apple UK web site:

    *24/7 AppleCare

    When your operation hinges on server reliability, you can’t afford
    downtime. To ensure rapid issue resolution for Xserve systems, Apple
    offers a comprehensive range of service and support options. And since
    both Xserve and Mac OS X Server come from Apple, you don’t need to spend
    hours on the phone with finger-pointing third-party manufacturers to
    figure out where a problem lies: AppleCare service and support products
    are as integrated as Apple’s hardware and software. One call can truly
    do it all.*
    Of course it goes tits up just hours before the deadline. Sensors for
    that are embedded in the hardware: measures work flow, adjusts for
    Greenwich Mean Time, etc, senses critical time/workflow juncture....then

    But, in my humble opinion, this is perhaps even more in favor of Apple,
    Sun, or some other workstation integrator, since *when* it goes tits up,
    again your have one contact for repairs.

    And, for a no clutter solution: some sort of Sun pedestal case?

    From Sun:

    *The Sun Fire V40z server delivers the next leap in return on enterprise
    IT investment with extreme performance, reliability, serviceability, and
    flexibility. With up to four dual-core or single-core AMD Opteron CPUs,
    this x64 server delivers exceptional versatility in a small footprint.

    At a Glance*

    * Offers eight-way performance in a four-socket system with same
    operating costs as other 4-way servers
    * Scales horizontally in grid or HA cluster, with high speed
    Gigabit or InfiniBand interconnect
    * Runs the Solaris Operating System, 64-bit and 32-bit Red Hat
    Linux, 64-bit SUSE Linux, Microsoft Windows Server 2000 and 2003, and
    VMware certified
    * Addresses 32 GB of DDR1 physical memory and up to 1.8 TB of
    internal disk storage
    * Comes standard with redundant power, cooling, and remote
    lights-out management*

    Sun UK

    Warranty service in UK: seems as though Sun would have to have a good
    service network there in the Home Isles.

    Looks easy to swap out SCSI drives, tidy, accessible. And, it seems
    that the solution you seek is not so unusual that a complete custom
    build is the answer (says I, on my custom home built Tyan
    system....RAID, ECC memory, etc. But, very light use, nothing compared
    to what you will be doing.)

    Regardless, what a nice problem for you to have: choosing some high end

    When your system is up and running, you are going to have fun with
    digital imaging--please do let us know what you decide.

    Good luck!

    BC, Nov 21, 2005
  5. I'd suggest that the 'limit', perhaps ought to be slightly lower (possibly
    around 80%). There is some time 'lost' in any system, and actually hitting
    much over 80 to 85% for long periods is relatively unlikely. However I
    think you ought to be looking at other things at the same time
    (performance monitor can for example record things like interrupts/second,
    I/O traffic etc.), and concentrate on the 'highest' ones.
    On the machine in general, I found myself slightly 'disagreeing' with some
    of the proposed designs from some posters, because of the differences with
    PS. PS tends to do it's 'own' memory management, and unfortunately as a
    result, can interfere with things that would otherwise optimise Windows.
    I'd suggest using three fast SCSI drives, and running one for the OS, the
    second for the Windows paging file, and the third for PS's swap.
    Unfortunately, Windows will always tend to use it's own paging file, even
    if plenty of RAM is available. Keeping all these operations seperate,
    reduces the drive latencies involved in each case (not such a problem with
    the overlapped I/O of SCSI, but still worth doing). These drives do not
    need to use RAID, since except for the OS installation, the data is
    'transient'. RAM drives could also be used here, and the product from, works with XP64. Then add an external hardware RAID
    array, possibly using Fibre-Channel, or SCSI again as the 'host'
    interface, and place the working images on here. Chose the RAID form
    selected carefully, depending on the nature of the data. Remember that if
    properly done, RAID3, can be the fastest for single large block transfers,
    but depending on the hardware, may/will increase latencies. RAID5, is good
    for applications with a lot of random I/O, RAID1, potentially decreases
    read latency, but worsens write times, while RAID0, gives fast block
    transfers, but increases both read and write latencies.
    The problem is that I suspect you are going to be heavily into the land of
    'diminishing returns' with this configuration. I'd not be suprised if (for
    instance), you could throw together a system, with something like an
    Athlon64 4800+, four drives, and a good amount of RAM, and achieve 75-80%
    of the final performance, for well under half the price, and with a lot
    less heat (which is going to be a real problem with the proposed machine).
    Unless you have major processing 'tasks', which are all running properly
    multi-threaded, and not waiting on a slowest part, the gain with each
    subsequent processor, will get less and less....

    Best Wishes
    Roger Hamlett, Nov 21, 2005
  6. Richard

    Clueless Guest to me appears suitable if you will use an external
    array for your data storage.

    S. Althaf
    Clueless, Nov 21, 2005
  7. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Clueless writes
    Thanks for the url...delay in replying caused by my ISP going tits up
    for 30hrs! Sounds interesting, but some questions please! Do I need
    to pay special attention as to it's installation or can it just sit on a
    bench...perhaps it needs free air under and over the case? What about
    putting in graphics cards as I see something about Low profile cards?
    How do I go about rigging up additional hard drives? Bet there are
    things I have not thought off!

    Richard, Nov 22, 2005
  8. Richard

    Clueless Guest

    I would buy the server myself but my budget will not allow it for the next
    3-4 months.
    It is a rackmount server , it does not need airflow below / above, just good
    ventilation to the front & back. It will be quite noisy though. I have a
    full size rack but you can use one as small as 11u (desk height) that will
    let you install the server, arrays, an UPS etc.
    Re the graphics cards, which one do you plan to use?
    You can get a couple of PCI-X riser cards that will allow you to install the
    graphics card horizontally.
    You can also install a SCSI controller card or a SATA controller card
    horizontally in the second slot & run the cables out through the back to the
    external drive array.
    Depending on the number of SCSI & SATA drives you want to use, you might get
    away with a couple of small enclosures, try Googling for suppliers. They can
    stand on a shelf if need be.
    I have bought 3 dual Opteron servers from OSS, so can recommend them. If you
    wish to compare prices, I just configured an identical unit on which came to £12k + VAT.

    Clueless, Nov 23, 2005
  9. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Clueless writes
    Dear Seleem

    Thanks for your advise. I wonder what it will go for.....looks to be
    a fair bit of interest in it already.
    Not sure really. I have always been a fan of the Matrox cards for
    Photoshop use....perhaps their Parhelia card.
    Thanks for all that. BTW what did he do regarding their sales tax? I
    presume that there was no import duty payable.

    Best wishes

    Richard, Nov 23, 2005
  10. Richard

    Clueless Guest

    Hi Richard

    No sales tax or import duty but VAT was payable. Delivery via UPS within a
    week, well packed for approx 120 dollars.
    There was a Newisys quad box going a couple of weeks ago, went for £3k so
    this might possibly go for £5-6k.
    I presume you snipe, so as not to telegraph your interest to everyone?
    Mail me if you want to discuss this privately.

    Clueless, Nov 23, 2005
  11. Richard

    Henrik Tived Guest

    Hi again richard,

    For case you could look at the Chenbro 103 series (a cube design) with a
    Zippy 1300+W powersupply or bigger if you fancy

    Zippy is a enterprise standard power supply - not your average kids
    oversized playstation

    only problem with the chenbro case is its bloody heavy - currently looking
    at it myself, but with an 850W zippy for my S2895 Dual Opteron. current box
    Chenbro SR107

    Photoshop CS and CS2 runs fine on winXP x64 but does not see all 8gb of ram
    that I currently have. There are now drivers for most things, don't know
    about Imacon and the likes. And there is still no color calibration (I think
    I have mentioned this to you before Ione will have something early 2006)

    as far as I know Photoshop will currently only use dual processors, only
    advantage of you getting a quad is if you are doing other tasks at the same processing raw files and editing images at the same time. Which
    is much why some of us are now using the S2895 Dual Opteron setup with the
    optional dual core cpu's however, currently there are not many applications
    that can take advantage of the extra cores. In Raw file conversion I think
    it is only Bibble that uses all cores
    have a look at the link above and judge for yourself. You may be better off
    at the moment just getting a dual processor for the next 12months and then
    when applications has court up with the hardware get the full monty, by
    either replacing mainboard and upgrade to dual core processors.

    thanks for providing a very interesting thread

    A dane Down Under

    PS: love your comment about the Mac :) LOL
    Henrik Tived, Nov 24, 2005
  12. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Thu, 24 Nov 2005, Henrik Tived writes
    Dear Henrik

    Thanks for coming back in. I will take a look at this.
    Right, thanks for the warning.
    That's to be expected but nether the less disappointing, hopefully Adobe
    will get their act together and realize the web is not their total
    market these days!
    Imacon is not of interest to me.
    Ah thanks for reminding what you previously said. I had forgotten this
    but presumably this is no odds to PS as in the days of NT we relied on
    PS's internal ability in this department to colour manage the work put
    through this application.
    I have been having a discussion with one of the main engineers on the PS
    team and he is adamant that PS will recognise 8 cores...I past below a
    bit from the correspondence.
    We've been testing Photoshop on an 8 core Opteron system, with no big
    problems (the fact that it's a rack mount and sounds like a jet engine
    being the minor problems.

    I tried to get some numbers out of him but he ran and hid saying he
    could not give me this information....perhaps Intel has Adobe by the S
    Thanks for the link. Interesting but as my interest is on just running
    PS, and a couple of plug-ins it does not really move me on, however I
    would be very interested in hearing some numbers from anyone out there
    on the following.

    Make a Photoshop tiff file of a solid colour as a 300Mbfile in 8bit and
    rotate it 27.5 degrees. How long does that take please? I would like
    to know the computer configuration, OS, do you have a dedicated swap
    disk and if so what is it, how much ram is allocated to PS, the amount
    of ram you have on the system,

    Oh how frustrating life can be!
    You are very welcome and may I take this opportunity of saying a big
    thank you to everyone who has joined in on this thread and helped me in
    different ways. It's good that I am not the only one to have got
    something out of it.

    Best wishes

    Please don't get me wrong I just love the look of the G5 and hate the
    crude cases foisted on the PC market that are supposed to look like
    "power" boxes with their tacky plastic mouldings etc. That's why I like
    the Lian-Li cases but I don't quite see one of them taking a 13"x 16"
    Tyan quad board unless someone knows differently?
    Richard, Nov 25, 2005
  13. Richard

    BC Guest

    Dear Richard,

    looks like Lian-Li makes several cases that take an EATX board;
    links are to an American web retailer known for fast delivery; love
    their web site just to do research, too--took just a few minutes to find
    Lian-Li/EATX boards, as their search engine is darn good.

    Also, I do like the comments from various users, they can be helpful at


    BC, Nov 26, 2005
  14. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Sat, 26 Nov 2005, BC writes

    Dear BC

    Thanks for the useful URL's just one small snag though none of them are
    designed to take the much larger quad boards of 13x16 inches unless I am
    not getting it<G>

    Best wishes

    Richard, Nov 26, 2005
  15. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Bruce Burden writes
    Dear Bruce

    Many thanks for the above. What a bummer that there are no
    alternatives yet to the Tyan case. I wonder what the possibilities of
    adapting a Lian-Li case are. The extended ATX cases look big enough but
    perhaps too much adapting would be needed! My direct inquiry to them
    has not been responded to so far.


    Richard, Nov 26, 2005
  16. Richard

    Henrik Tived Guest

    Hi Richard,

    Lian Li's larger cases should take that, look at under gallery,
    there you will get a feel for what boxes people are using
    I also have a LL PC70 case, and I am pretty sure it would take such a board.

    I will run that test once I get my machine back from tech...ohh yeah, get
    plenty of power!! it apparently can course hard drives to misbehave

    good luck

    Henrik Tived, Nov 26, 2005
  17. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Henrik Tived writes
    Dear Henrik

    Thanks for the url. I've been to look but I cannot really tell if the
    13x16 inch quad boards would go in. I amagine not otherwise surely it
    would be in the manufacturer's interrest to say. Perhaps there is
    someone here who know differently.



    Richard, Nov 26, 2005
  18. Richard

    BC Guest

    Dear Richard,

    oops, didn't even know there was an SWTX motherboard size;
    Looks like that size is officially called SSI-MEB....

    I wound up getting a Supermicro case for my Tyan board. Here are some
    Supermicro cases that will take a SWTX/SSI-MEB mobo:

    The cardboard *box* my Supermicro case came in was of higher quality
    than some actual computer cases I have used over the years. The case
    itself is built like the proverbial battle tank....and, while I am
    partial to PC Power and Cooling power supplies, it came with a 430W unit
    that has been excellent.


    BC, Nov 26, 2005
  19. Richard

    BC Guest

    BC, Nov 26, 2005
  20. Richard

    Richard Guest

    In his posting of Sat, 26 Nov 2005, BC writes
    Dear BC

    Thanks for that......looks an impressive beast! I had the idea that
    Super Micro were very much Intel based and did nothing for the AMD
    That is good that they make sure their boards arrive well protected.


    Richard, Nov 26, 2005
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