??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Hans Aus, Aug 29, 2003.

  1. Hans Aus

    Hans Aus Guest

    A) When logged into VMS 7.2-1 with Telnet from the Mac OS X Terminal:

    In the command line,

    1) the DELETE Key backspaces one character but doesn't delete the
    character.
    2) the cursor also backspaces into the Prompt.

    The DELETE key functions correctly in the VMS Editor.

    B) When logged into
    Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 (Rev. 732); Fri Feb 21 10:23:12 CET 2003.

    the DELETE key functions correctly.

    QUESTION:

    How do I get the DELETE Key to function properly with VMS?
     
    Hans Aus, Aug 29, 2003
    #1
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  2. Hans Aus

    Bev A. Kupf Guest

    It has been a decade since I used VMS, so I don't remember the VMS
    equivalent of the Unix stty command, but that would be the *correct*
    way of fixing the problem.

    As a temporary fix. Under Terminal, go to "Window Settings", select
    "Emulation", and click on "Delete key sends backspace". That will fix
    your problem in the VMS shell.
    It may however break the use of the delete key in the VMS editor. This
    really should be fixed by keymapping on the VMS side.

    Beverly
     
    Bev A. Kupf, Aug 29, 2003
    #2
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  3. Hans Aus

    Hans Aus Guest

    Bev,

    Thanks for your quick reply. I'll try our VMSbox again the next time I'm
    in the office.

    However, if I check "Delete Key sends backspace" the result on the
    Unixbox (reachable from home) is:

    kkk^H^H^H^H
     
    Hans Aus, Aug 29, 2003
    #3
  4. Hans Aus

    Bev A. Kupf Guest

    Yes, I expected that. You'll have to use two separate settings files
    of each of the two computers -- one for VMS and one for Tru64. I wish
    I could remember what the VMS term setting command was to fix the
    backspace<->delete bugaboo.

    Beverly
     
    Bev A. Kupf, Aug 29, 2003
    #4
  5. Hans Aus

    Bob Koehler Guest

    You can't remember it because there isn't any. The only options
    you have are to control it at the client side or to use an X11
    based terminal emulator which will allow the VMS system to use
    xmodmap.
     
    Bob Koehler, Aug 29, 2003
    #5
  6. Hans Aus

    Hans Aus Guest

    .... The only options
    But Bob - why does the delete key work in non-X11 terminal programs such
    as VersaTerm and Kermit - without xmodmap?

    We've used VersaTerm on pre-X MacOS since the beginning of Mac (almost)
    and never had to set any extra options in VMS. Unfortunately, Synergy is
    not porting VersaTerm to MacOSX.
     
    Hans Aus, Aug 29, 2003
    #6
  7. As a side note, we are adding a new set terminal command and terminal
    attribute so that the user can select BACKSPACE == DELETE. That is, treat
    backspace (^H) as a rubout as well as delete as a rubout. I think it's in
    V7.3-2, I know it will be in the IA64 release (dunno if it made it into
    7.3-2 offhand). The function key to get to the start of the current line
    will still work normally even when this mode is set.
     
    Fred Kleinsorge, Aug 30, 2003
    #7
  8. Hans Aus

    Hans Aus Guest


    Fred, that's both interesting and good news.

    Is there (or will there be) a patch for Open VMS 7.2-1?
     
    Hans Aus, Aug 30, 2003
    #8
  9. Hans Aus

    Hans Aus Guest

    Fred, another thought - What code sequence does the Terminal have to
    send in order to have the delete key work properly on the VMS host? If I
    pass this code on to the MacTelnet or iTerm/Mac folks, perhaps someone
    will take pity on us and add this as an option.
     
    Hans Aus, Aug 30, 2003
    #9
  10. Presumably an Ascii <DEL> character.

    The idea that a key labeled Delete would send something other than <DEL>
    is strange, but perhaps those terminal emulators are mimicing Microsoft.
     
    Larry Kilgallen, Aug 30, 2003
    #10
  11. I have not been able to convince Terminal on MacOS X to send the proper
    keys for PF1-PF4, although it did the lower keypad keys for me OK. I use
    those PF keys extensively for ANUNEWS, so I am back to OS 9.1.
     
    Larry Kilgallen, Aug 30, 2003
    #11
  12. If they have mapped F1-F4 onto PF1-PF4, what does one use to send a real
    F1-F4 character ?

    Besides, I am using an Apple Keyboard (Model M0116) which does not have
    any F1-F<whatever> keys, only PF1-PF4, labeled <clear>, =, /, *.
     
    Larry Kilgallen, Aug 30, 2003
    #12
  13. DEL. ASCII 127.
     
    Matthew Russotto, Aug 30, 2003
    #13
  14.  
    Larry Kilgallen, Aug 31, 2003
    #14
  15. I have a PowerBook 520c with that key combination, which is _not_ what
    I need. I need the Escape key just to the left of the "1" key, and I
    have no use for that ` key except to type Usenet messages about it.

    But even if the powerbook _did_ have the escape key adjacent to "1",
    and had the Control key adjacent to "A",
    and had tactile feedback more like an Apple Keyboard or a VTxxx keyboard,
    I don't see any way to wire the PowerBook keyboard up to my Gefen ADB KVM.
    Ok, but I don't see what it has to do with the Escape key :)
     
    Larry Kilgallen, Aug 31, 2003
    #15
  16. : > In article <G2S3b.3784$>,
    : >
    : > > As a side note, we are adding a new set terminal command and terminal
    : > > attribute so that the user can select BACKSPACE == DELETE. That is,
    : > > treat backspace (^H) as a rubout as well as delete as a rubout. I think
    : > > it's in V7.3-2, I know it will be in the IA64 release (dunno if it made
    : > > it into 7.3-2 offhand). The function key to get to the start of the
    : > > current line will still work normally even when this mode is set.
    : >
    : Fred, another thought - What code sequence does the Terminal have to
    : send in order to have the delete key work properly on the VMS host? If I
    : pass this code on to the MacTelnet or iTerm/Mac folks, perhaps someone
    : will take pity on us and add this as an option.
    :
    Hi Hans. It's amazing how this issue has still not been settled everywhere
    and for all time after more than 30 years. I tried to summarize it in a
    web page:

    http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/backspace.html

    It's written for Kermit users, but almost anybody who suffers from this
    problem should find it helpful.

    - Frank
     
    Frank da Cruz, Aug 31, 2003
    #16
  17. Hans Aus

    Hans M. Aus Guest

    Elliott, I tried your suggestion this (Monday) morning using the MacOS X
    Terminal with 'delete sends backspace' unchecked.

    With "telnet vmsbox-ip" the delete key works as it should.

    HOWEVER, in order to have the German Umlauts display correctly on the
    terminal, I have to connect with:

    "telnet -8 vmsbox-ip"

    Then the delete key apparently sends end of command line.
    :(
     
    Hans M. Aus, Sep 1, 2003
    #17
  18. On VMS the character that needs to be sent to delete a character is 0x7f
    (DEL) . Command line
    recall and editing was added 0x8 (BS) was selected as the return to the start
    of a line character.
    Why CTRL-H I don't know its choice predates my involvement with the VMS
    terminal driver.

    I recently added a new attribute definition to the VMS terminal driver.
    The bit name is TT3$M_BS
    when this attribute is set the terminal driver when it seed 0x8 changes it to
    0x7f. There are a couple of
    exceptions to this. If the line is set to passall or pasthru, or a read with
    IO$M_NOFILTR is set we
    do not remap it. Additionally, if a user enters CTRL-V followed by CTRL-H
    twice we will treat
    go to the start of the line. We also do not remap the ESCAPE sequence sent by
    the F12 key.

    Yes this will show up in a show terminal command and there is a set
    terminal command to change
    it. We are not going to enable this new behavior as the default. But
    customers can make a site
    policy decision to enable it by setting the bit in the new sysgen parameter
    TTY_DEFCHAR3.

    This work was not done for V7.3-2, at the point where the decision was
    made to do this it was
    to late to check this into that release. We will not be back porting this to
    V7.3-2 or V7.3-1.

    Forrest Kenney
    OpenVMS
     
    Forrest Kenney, Sep 1, 2003
    #18
  19. Hans Aus

    Bob Harris Guest

    I do not know if it will help, but try iTerm.
    <http://iterm.sourceforge.net/>

    Bob Harris
     
    Bob Harris, Sep 1, 2003
    #19
  20. Hans Aus

    Bob Koehler Guest

    Because when you use the delete key on those clients, the client
    sends a proper ASCII delete character.
    I've mostly used NCSA telnet for years, NCSA dropped Mac a while
    back. Later I tried BetterTelnet, which I think is a FAT with OS X
    support. Nowdays I'm using NiftyTelnet which has SSH built in and is
    also built for OS X. I have no problems with the delete key on any of
    them.
     
    Bob Koehler, Sep 2, 2003
    #20
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