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Differences between Thunderbird, Palomino, Barton ?

Discussion in 'AMD Thunderbird' started by liaM, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. liaM

    liaM Guest

    It seems possible to purchase Atlon XPs at equal PR ratings
    yet different types......

    What's different about them, say for a processor with a rating
    of 1800 ?

    Oh yes.. what does the + sign after the 18OO signify ? What are
    series 6 or 8 athlons ?




    Thanks ..
    liaM
     
    liaM, Sep 18, 2003
    #1
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  2. liaM

    rstlne Guest

    I would think that the + means it's a PR rating



    OPN Code Frequency
    1000 1000MHz
    1100 1100MHz
    1133 1133MHz
    1200 1200MHz
    1300 1300MHz
    1333 1333MHz
    1400 1400MHz (desktop)
    1400 1200MHz (Mobile)
    1500 1333MHz
    1600 1400MHz
    1700 1467MHz
    1800 1533MHz
    1900 1600MHz
    2000 1667MHz
    2100 1733MHz
    2200 1800MHz
    2400 2000MHz
    2500 1833MHz
    2600 2083MHz (333FSB)
    2600 2133MHz (266FSB)
    2700 2167MHz
    2800 2083MHz
    3000 2167MHz
     
    rstlne, Sep 18, 2003
    #2
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  3. liaM

    liaM Guest

    What is the FSB for a 2500 OPN ?
    Or are there various FSBs for it (like for the 2600).

    Also.. what is the max FSB for a 1800+ unit ???
    And, again.. what's different between a Thubderbird, Palomino, Barton ??

    thanks
    liaM
     
    liaM, Sep 18, 2003
    #3
  4. liaM

    lost Guest

    No, the Barton only by default works with 166/333MHz FSB (except the 3200+
    which goes with the 200/400MHZ FSB).
    The Thunderbird was the 2nd K7 core. The fastest one is 1400MHz. They all
    ran with a 100/200FSB except a few of the last ones which ran with the newer
    133/266FSB.
    The Palomino was the original AthlonXP core. They produced far more heat,
    had a more primitive production process, and couldn't run as fast as the
    newer cores. You can't readily buy them anymore.
    The Thoroughbred was the next AthlonXP core. It ran much cooler, so it could
    go faster. Most work with 133/266MHz FSB, but some of the faster ones are
    available for 166/333MHz FSB. The Thoroughbred B uses slightly less
    electricity & runs cooler.
    The Barton is basically a Thoroughbred B with additional cache on the chip
    to make it go faster. As AMD couldn't make the core run reliabily faster
    than ~2.25GHz, they instead tried to match Intel's top performers by adding
    cache ram. A Barton XP 2500+ is considered a good chip to overclock - it is
    the best value for money so long as your motherboard can handle it without
    fuss.

    The + sign indicates a PR rating instead of a MHz rating. An Athlon XP 2200+
    for example runs as fast as a Thunderbird would if it could run at 2200MHz,
    athough it is only 1,800MHz. The PR ratings have been a marketing disaster
    for AMD, as people assume they mean in relation to the Pentium, when infact
    a XP 2200+ is faster than a 2.2GHz P4.

    The "for such and such FSB" of each CPU indicates what FSB speed the CPU's
    clock speed multiplier is set with in mind. You can manually set the CPU's
    multiplier, and therefore run it at the correct speed with almost any FSB
    speed, but the process is usually far more involved than you'll ever want to
    know.
     
    lost, Sep 18, 2003
    #4
  5. 1500+ - 2400+ = 266fsb
    2500+ - 2800+ = 333fsb altho the 2600+ was put out in both 266 and
    333
    3000+ - 3400+ = both 333 and 400fsb availability.

    Not too sure about differences in detail. Palomino was an update from
    the thunderbird/morgan cores, Tbred A was an update from the Palo.
    Tbred B from A... Barton from Tbred etc. The main diff between the
    barton and tbreds and below is the cache. tbreds and below have 384k
    total cache and bartons have 512k total. Durons I think had 256k
    total (128k L1 and 128k L2, someone correct me if I'm wrong) hope
    this helps some...

    |
    |
    | It seems possible to purchase Atlon XPs at equal PR ratings
    | yet different types......
    |
    | What's different about them, say for a processor with a rating
    | of 1800 ?
    |
    | Oh yes.. what does the + sign after the 18OO signify ? What are
    | series 6 or 8 athlons ?
    |
    |
    |
    |
    | Thanks ..
    | liaM
     
    E_\\_¼__½__¾__F, Sep 18, 2003
    #5
  6. liaM

    liaM Guest

    Thanks.. I'm not so lost as I was before your explanation !!
    But how do you do it, lost as your are ?



    liaM

    PS. for sure the 2500 is a great chip, then. I've been running it
    reliably and cool at 380 FSB and 56°C..
     
    liaM, Sep 18, 2003
    #6
  7. liaM

    liaM Guest

    All this is very interesting.. Before posting here, I went to the
    AMD site thinking there'd be a straightforward explanation of the
    different models. No such luck (except for reading 100+ page PDF
    manuals..). Check out "lost"'s reply to my post. It's
    really interesting how AMD shot itself in the foot with PR ratings,
    increasing cache size on the Barton just to play catch-up..


    Thanks,
    liaM









    "E_\\_¼__½__¾__F" a écrit :
     
    liaM, Sep 18, 2003
    #7
  8. liaM

    mcheu Guest

    The 2600+ doesn't have a varying FSB. From what I understand, there
    are two versions of it that are sold as XP2600+. An earlier 133/266
    FSB version (Palomino), and a later production version which is a
    166/333 part (Barton).

    What's the max FSB for an 1800+ unit? Can't answer that. The
    standard FSB for it is 133, with the memory going at 266 (as it's
    DDR). If you plan on overclocking, you're going into unknown
    territory, as the proc isn't meant to go at that speed, and your
    personal results may vary from chip to chip.

    (These are incomplete. If you want full details, go to www.amd.com
    and read the technical papers).

    Thunderbird -> This was a revision to the original K7 Athlon, which
    was designed to be equivalent to a Intel P2 or P3. MMX/3DNow
    instructions. One of the big deal improvements was a core shrink,
    which allowed lower power consumption, and higher speeds.

    AthlonXP/Palomino -> AthlonXP chips 1800+ to 2500+ are for sure
    Palominos. Improved cache, better power consumption, and
    incorporation of the Intel SSE instructions (called 3DNow Enhanced by
    AMD). They also started using the PR rating at this point. Also,
    FSB was ramped up to 133, with memory going at 266, as AMD had
    standardized on DDR memory.

    AthlonXP/Barton -> The newer XP chips. Smaller core, faster speeds,
    and improved cache. Also, a higher FSB -- 166, with memory going at
    333. Don't really know much more about the Bartons.

    The only real confusion point is the XP2600+, which early in
    production was a Palomino (the 133MHz FSB version) and the more recent
    ones are Barton core (166/333). The only way to tell which version
    you have is to look at the chip (and there, you'd actually have to
    know what to look for). The retail packaging is identical, so the
    casual buyer won't be able to tell at a glance. The reason why it's
    important to know which version is that some motherboards which claim
    to support the 2600+ only support the Palomino (133/266) version, and
    might not work with the Barton one.

    The PR being a performance rating vs how the chip performed compared
    to an original K7 Athlon (or Pentium 2/3). The + is just marketspeak
    for "for some stuff, it might perform better than that".

    Again, I'm certain that I've left out a lot of stuff, as I'm not an
    expert on AMD CPUs. If you really want to know all the differences,
    read the white papers on AMD's site - www.amd.com. If you just want
    more detail, read the articles on hardware sites like tomshardware
    (www.tomshardware.com)
     
    mcheu, Sep 18, 2003
    #8
  9. Not entirely true... I have the 2600+/266 CPU which is a Thoroughbred
    B Core. To my knowledge, there were no palomino cores made above the
    2100+.


    |
    | >What is the FSB for a 2500 OPN ?
    | >Or are there various FSBs for it (like for the 2600).
    | >
    | >Also.. what is the max FSB for a 1800+ unit ???
    | >And, again.. what's different between a Thubderbird, Palomino,
    Barton ??
    | >
    | >thanks
    | >liaM
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | >
    |
    | The 2600+ doesn't have a varying FSB. From what I understand,
    there
    | are two versions of it that are sold as XP2600+. An earlier
    133/266
    | FSB version (Palomino), and a later production version which is a
    | 166/333 part (Barton).
    |
     
    E_\\_¼__½__¾__F, Sep 18, 2003
    #9
  10. And the Barton was 2500+, 2800+ and up. there were no Barton 2600+,
    2700+ chips.

    | Not entirely true... I have the 2600+/266 CPU which is a
    Thoroughbred
    | B Core. To my knowledge, there were no palomino cores made above
    the
    | 2100+.
    |
    |
    | | | On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:07:41 +0200, liaM <>
    wrote::
    | |
    | | >What is the FSB for a 2500 OPN ?
    | | >Or are there various FSBs for it (like for the 2600).
    | | >
    | | >Also.. what is the max FSB for a 1800+ unit ???
    | | >And, again.. what's different between a Thubderbird, Palomino,
    | Barton ??
    | | >
    | | >thanks
    | | >liaM
    | | >
    | | >
    | | >
    | | >
    | |
    | | The 2600+ doesn't have a varying FSB. From what I understand,
    | there
    | | are two versions of it that are sold as XP2600+. An earlier
    | 133/266
    | | FSB version (Palomino), and a later production version which is a
    | | 166/333 part (Barton).
    | |
    |
    |
     
    E_\\_¼__½__¾__F, Sep 18, 2003
    #10
  11. liaM

    Wes Newell Guest

    Whatever you set it to. The default is 166Mhz.
    You can set it to whatever your board supports. There's only one default
    that I'm aware of.
    Depends on MB. 220MHz?
    Tbird- 1st socket A Athlon cpu. 1400=1400MHz 1600MHz*

    Palomino- 1st XP model, added SSE instructions, improved core. Started PR
    ratings. 2100+=1733MHz 1800MHz*

    Tbred A core- AMD's first attempt to get more speed with new core design.
    It didn't work too well. 2200+=1800MHz 1900MHz*

    Tbred B core- 2nd attempt. Worked great (added more core layers).
    2800+=2250 MHZ 2400MHz*

    Barton- Basically a Tbred B core with 512K L2 cache. 3200+=2200MHz 2400MHz*

    *= approx. top speed. Without is top default speed of model as of this
    time.
     
    Wes Newell, Sep 18, 2003
    #11
  12. liaM

    rstlne Guest

    All this is very interesting.. Before posting here, I went to the
    AMD site thinking there'd be a straightforward explanation of the
    different models. No such luck (except for reading 100+ page PDF
    manuals..). Check out "lost"'s reply to my post. It's
    really interesting how AMD shot itself in the foot with PR ratings,
    increasing cache size on the Barton just to play catch-up..


    Thanks,
    liaM



    I doubt they were playing catch up and instead just trying to increase
    performance.. Sometimes it's about building a better product rather than a
    competition/selling product..
    It's not difficult to understand really, you buy a motherboard and put the
    processor in the motherboard and it works..
    The chip will request the correct speed/voltage/multiplier so you dont
    really need to know it.. in that respect there is nothing confusing about it





    "E_\\_¼__½__¾__F" a écrit :
     
    rstlne, Sep 18, 2003
    #12
  13. liaM

    Ed Guest

    The Barton tech doc clearly shows a 2600+ though.

    Barton XP 2500+ - 1833 (166x11.0)
    Barton XP 2600+ - 1917 (166x11.5)
    Barton XP 2800+ - 2083 (166x12.5)
    Barton XP 3000+ - 2167 (166x13.0)

    Barton XP 3000+ - 2100 (200x10.5)
    Barton XP 3200+ - 2200 (200x11.0)

    Ed
     
    Ed, Sep 18, 2003
    #13
  14. liaM

    Ben Pope Guest

    Thoroughbred. There are no Barton 2600+
    Er... 133MHz DDR, 266 somethings. (Million data transfers per second) The
    memory is seperate.
    Nah... Palaminos never went that high.
    You're missing Thoroughbred. There was an A and a B, change in fab
    technology as the B's clock higher.
    Bigger cache, FSB of 166 and 200MHz DDR.
    I think all 2600+ are Thoroughbreds.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 18, 2003
    #14
  15. liaM

    Ben Pope Guest

    Weird - ever seen one for sale?

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 18, 2003
    #15
  16. liaM

    Ed Guest

    No, not here in the US anyway, you?
    Ed
     
    Ed, Sep 18, 2003
    #16
  17. liaM

    Ben Pope Guest

    Nah

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 18, 2003
    #17
  18. liaM

    mcheu Guest

    Sorry. I basically lumped the TBreds in with the Palominos. No
    particular reason, I just completely forgot about them.

    As to your other comment about there being no AthlonXP2600+ Bartons, I
    don't know for sure. I based it on information off the AMD site, and
    on motherboard manuals for "supported CPUs". I suppose it's possible
    that it's one of those things where the CPU's listed, but was never
    produced.

    In my defence, I did say that I'm not an AMD expert :)
     
    mcheu, Sep 18, 2003
    #18
  19. liaM

    Ed Guest

    Maybe it's a typo? :0

    Did you notice the 2500, 2600 and 2800+ (333fsb) in the Barton tech doc
    all have the same max thermal power specs? (68.3W max)?
    Doesn't that seem just a little bit strange to you?

    If underclock my 2800+ Barton to a 2500+ I would think it would run
    cooler at full load not the same, seems only logical doesn't it?

    Ed
     
    Ed, Sep 19, 2003
    #19
  20. liaM

    Ben Pope Guest

    It's probably something they never got round to deciding to produce. It
    probably happens all the time. The latest electrical spec doc I've seen is
    dated January (rev 7?), hence the newer Bartons aren't in it.
    I would suspect that power consumption is linearly proportional to clock
    rate - thats assuming that you increase the FSB and leave the multiplier
    alone. But what do I know :)

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 19, 2003
    #20
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