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dual g5 vs dual opteron vs dual xeon for video encoding

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by the augur, Aug 30, 2004.

  1. the augur

    the augur Guest

    Hello gents, sorry for the cross posting, not sure which forums this
    effects, but I currently have several boxen: dual g4 1.25ghz, athlon
    xp 2000, and a dual p3 933 and I want a new rig for DVD to DIVX
    conversion specifically.

    Encoding DVD video to DIVX on my dual mac g4 takes something along the
    lines of 3 hours for a 1.2 hour movie. I use an IDE ATA 100 7200rpm
    drive (8MB cache) and it's got about 1.5GB of ddr 333 ram.

    What machine would you recommend? Of course i want the best bang for
    the buck, but if i can save 50% on time with a dual g5 2.5Ghz, I'll
    most definitely throw money.

    Also, I'm comfortable with Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows, but would
    prefer
    to use linux or mac os x.

    What are the bottlenecks with video encoding? It seems to be
    processor intensive, i've been running ffmpegx with mencoder or ffmpeg
    MPEG4 codecs.
    It seems like my cpu's both hover around 100%. Would a 64 bit capable
    os, chip, and software make a huge difference? Tiger, mac os 10.4
    will be 64 bit capable, certain linux distros are 64 bit enabled. I
    don't think memory is heavily used in most video encoding applications
    that I've used, but don't 64 bits also allow larger instructions to be
    processed??

    I think that my powermac mdd dual g4 1.25Ghz machine has a crippled
    bus, so maybe that's what the problem is, I'll definitely be going for
    RAID 0 SATA.

    Also, in terms of these video encoding programs, if the programs were
    built to read/write entire movies in memory, would it contribute to
    faster encoding, less disk drive access which seems to always be a
    bottleneck?

    I'm leaning towards a homemade dual xeon 2.8ghz EMT64 with 1mb cache
    and 800mhz bus (only 239 usd at newegg!!) that would effectively give
    me 2 cpu's, 4 virtual cpu's, 1.5 gb ddr400 ram, motherboard, 2 36gb
    10k rpm SATA drives with 8 mb cache, all for under 1500 usd!

    the only problem is that i'd be using probably gentoo linux where my
    current and preferred distribution is slackware. And if it's linux,
    which software is the best for dvd encoding? I suppose since ffmpeg
    was first written on linux, that that's an option, i tried transcode a
    long time back with little success.

    Any advice or experiences would be greatly appreciated.
     
    the augur, Aug 30, 2004
    #1
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  2. the augur

    outlaw Guest

    I would go with the Dual G5.
    1. 64-bit
    2. 2.5GHZ of bus (AMD 400mhz intell 800mhz)
    3. you can add up to 8gb of ram
    4. MAC OS kicks butt
     
    outlaw, Aug 31, 2004
    #2
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  3. the augur

    the augur Guest

    I thought that the Opteron used a 1Ghz bus right? And it's also 64 bits.
    Some of the Opteron boards come with 16gb of ram.

    hmm...

    (outlaw) wrote in message
     
    the augur, Aug 31, 2004
    #3
  4. the augur

    the augur Guest

    I think CPU is a definite bottleneck, the fact that my CPU's both
    reach 100% means I need more and faster CPU's.

    Perhaps video encoding is something that can be distributed, say like
    in a compute cluster.

    What are user's experience with transcode and ffmpeg on linux?
     
    the augur, Aug 31, 2004
    #4
  5. Here's the ultimate A/V system:
    http://www.orionmulti.com/
     
    Colon Terminus, Aug 31, 2004
    #5

  6. Well was using 321 Video Studio and done a full DVD Copy in less then an
    hour total from beginning to burn the DVD with my AthlonXP 2500+ on a
    ASUS MB with 512 MB or Ram of course this will never equal a mac for the
    quality maybe but if you put the same a mount of money that equal your
    rig on a AMS platform I am sure you will end up with something pretty
    amazing although I am not an expert in the 64 bits mobo and cpu.

    What I am saying is that there is something wrong in your setup or
    software and as I am not aware of the MAC World regarding Warez and
    crack for CSS and what their world offer on that subject I am sure that
    you are better judge then me on that subject.

    Hope this will help you or anyone in the group.
     
    Michel Derome, Sep 1, 2004
    #6
  7. the augur

    gaffo Guest



    the only "bottleneck" is the CPU. You don't need a fast bus nor a fast
    disk nor alot of ram. Just a fast CPU.

    If you can use an application with Altivec (assuming the g5 has that -
    does it?) - that is your best choice. Altivec is a little faster that SSE-2.


    Now, if altivec is not possible, then the Xeon/P-4 (which I don't like
    due to its "unbalenced" performance in other stuff outside of video) is
    your best choice - since they use SSE-2 and will execute SSE-2 code
    around 10-pecent faster that the Athlon-64. Even though the Athlon64 has
    a little faster SSE-2 unit (per equivalent clock), the chip runs a
    little lower clock speed (relative to the P-4) and so the result is a
    slightly slower SSE-2 performance on the Athlon 64.


    Of course the X87 of the Athlon is nearly twice the speed of the P-4's
    so all NON-SSE-2 applications (I'm not sure how many video apps
    use/don't use SSE-2) will run around 30-percent faster on the Athlon64.

    You will have to find out if the main apps you use have SSE-2 or X87 as
    the floating point code. (or Altivec WRT to the G5)


    As for 32-bit and 64-bit Operating systems - irrelivant WRT encoding
    speed AFAIK....................

    No wait - I think that might be wrong! In 64-bit mode the
    Opteron/Athlon64 does not have to "remap" the general registers.
    Remapping takeups up a few CPU cycles - so you will get a 20-percent
    boost using a 64-bit OS.

    Of course you will need to use a 64-bit Application on top of the OS
    (and not just a 32-bit running on top of the 64-bit OS!!!!!) to see this
    speed boost. Of course you can run 32-bit apps on a 64 bit OS (Maya
    folks do this in Linux to get the full theoretical 4-gigs of Ram for
    rendering - Maya running on a 32 bit OS uses 1-gig for OS system/app
    interaction and so has only 3-gig of rendering ram), but you will see no
    speed boost.



    AFAIK there are NO 64-bit applications outside of Oracle, And I would
    not expect to find any for another two or three yrs.


    So for you interests, using a 64-bit OS will not help you since running
    32-bit apps will not give oyu a speed boost.



    Finally, if you can wait one year - you can get a Dual-Core
    Opteron/Athlon64 (two CPU cores on one
    waffer/chip)...................such a chip will give you a 30-perncet
    speed boost in the real world (but only for multithreaded applications -
    of which maybe one in ten WRT video exist). Not alot, but more prectical
    than the 64-bit on 64-bit solution for the next coulpe of years anyway.


    The most important thing is to find out if your apps use x87 or SSE-2.
    and then pick the chip fomr there.

    good luck.


    --
    http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

    http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
    instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
    And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
    -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
    Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

    "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
    were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
    whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
    criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
    in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
    may say,"
    Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
    Department Lawyer
    Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

    If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
    the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
    George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
    Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
    vote for
    the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
    Republican Party.
    Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

    "But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
    -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
    an Iraqi prisoner.

    "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
    our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
    freedom of our country.
    -Iraqi Mahdi fighter

    "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
    One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
    so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
    the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
    -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

    "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
    Zionists
    and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
    -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

    "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
    the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
    for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
    Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

    "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
    destabilize their country."
    Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

    "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
    of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
    incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
    to deal with this?'"
    - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
    on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

    "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
    his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
    the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
    "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
    would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
    Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
    Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
    Bergner,
    Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
    William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
    Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
    Baghdad on their minds."
    -philip (usenet)

    "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
    -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

    "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
    and running
    - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
    back, if I can put it that way,
    or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
    are going to allow us to exercise
    on their behalf and with their permission."
    - Powell 4/27/04

    "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
    are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
    obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
    On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
    moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
    moments."
    - Rumsfeld 4/6/04

    "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
    country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
    every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
    the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
    of freedom."
    ~ Bush the Crusader


    RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

    BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

    RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

    BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
    do for the country.
    See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
    changing times
    here in America, too., 2/8/04


    "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
    I'm coming from,
    to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
    president.
    I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
    war on my mind.
    - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


    "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
    based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
    these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
    he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
    And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
    - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


    "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
    Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
    - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


    "I think in this case international law
    stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
    - Richard Perle


    "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
    respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
    conventional power against his neighbours."
    - Colin Powell February 24 2001


    "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
    him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

    "He threatens not the United States."

    "But I also thought that we had pretty
    much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

    'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
    for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
    keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
    "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
    - Colin Powell February 26 2001
     
    gaffo, Sep 1, 2004
    #7
  8. the augur

    gaffo Guest


    you are copying a DVD (Mpeg2) - not encoding it to Mpeg4.

    my humble 750 mhz Athlon takes 14 hrs for a 2-hr movie to encode from
    DVD (Mpeg2) to Divx5.1 (Mpeg4).

    that same machine can run through Smartripper with the CSS ripper in
    5-minutes. Again copying a DVD is not that CPU intensive, encoding to
    Mpeg4/divx is.

    --
    http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

    http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
    instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
    And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
    -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
    Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

    "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
    were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
    whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
    criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
    in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
    may say,"
    Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
    Department Lawyer
    Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

    If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
    the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
    George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
    Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
    vote for
    the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
    Republican Party.
    Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

    "But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
    -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
    an Iraqi prisoner.

    "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
    our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
    freedom of our country.
    -Iraqi Mahdi fighter

    "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
    One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
    so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
    the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
    -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

    "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
    Zionists
    and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
    -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

    "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
    the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
    for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
    Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

    "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
    destabilize their country."
    Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

    "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
    of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
    incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
    to deal with this?'"
    - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
    on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

    "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
    his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
    the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
    "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
    would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
    Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
    Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
    Bergner,
    Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
    William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
    Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
    Baghdad on their minds."
    -philip (usenet)

    "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
    -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

    "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
    and running
    - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
    back, if I can put it that way,
    or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
    are going to allow us to exercise
    on their behalf and with their permission."
    - Powell 4/27/04

    "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
    are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
    obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
    On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
    moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
    moments."
    - Rumsfeld 4/6/04

    "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
    country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
    every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
    the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
    of freedom."
    ~ Bush the Crusader


    RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

    BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

    RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

    BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
    do for the country.
    See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
    changing times
    here in America, too., 2/8/04


    "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
    I'm coming from,
    to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
    president.
    I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
    war on my mind.
    - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


    "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
    based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
    these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
    he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
    And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
    - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


    "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
    Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
    - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


    "I think in this case international law
    stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
    - Richard Perle


    "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
    respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
    conventional power against his neighbours."
    - Colin Powell February 24 2001


    "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
    him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

    "He threatens not the United States."

    "But I also thought that we had pretty
    much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

    'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
    for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
    keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
    "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
    - Colin Powell February 26 2001
     
    gaffo, Sep 1, 2004
    #8
  9. the augur

    luminos Guest

    Gaffo,

    It is horrible netiquette to attach pages of political nonsense to your
    posts.
     
    luminos, Sep 1, 2004
    #9
  10. the augur

    outlaw Guest

    The only way you would get that is if you got a server. and as far as
    i know the Opteron dose not have 1gb of bus.
     
    outlaw, Sep 1, 2004
    #10
  11. Ah, but it's his sig file, so it doesn't count :)

    Just kidding...

    Gino
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Sep 1, 2004
    #11
  12. the augur

    gaffo Guest


    yes - but in this troubling times I feeel it is my duty as a Citizen and
    Patriot to not remain silent in the face of evil. You can *plonk* me if
    my sig offends.

    After Nov2 - it won't matter - one way or another.

    --
    http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

    http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
    instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
    And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
    -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
    Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

    "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
    were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
    whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
    criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
    in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
    may say,"
    Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
    Department Lawyer
    Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

    If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
    the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
    George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
    Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
    vote for
    the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
    Republican Party.
    Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

    "But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
    -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
    an Iraqi prisoner.

    "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
    our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
    freedom of our country.
    -Iraqi Mahdi fighter

    "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
    One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
    so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
    the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
    -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

    "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
    Zionists
    and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
    -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

    "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
    the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
    for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
    Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

    "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
    destabilize their country."
    Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

    "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
    of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
    incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
    to deal with this?'"
    - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
    on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

    "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
    his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
    the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
    "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
    would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
    Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
    Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
    Bergner,
    Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
    William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
    Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
    Baghdad on their minds."
    -philip (usenet)

    "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
    -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

    "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
    and running
    - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
    back, if I can put it that way,
    or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
    are going to allow us to exercise
    on their behalf and with their permission."
    - Powell 4/27/04

    "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
    are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
    obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
    On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
    moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
    moments."
    - Rumsfeld 4/6/04

    "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
    country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
    every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
    the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
    of freedom."
    ~ Bush the Crusader


    RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

    BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

    RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

    BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
    do for the country.
    See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
    changing times
    here in America, too., 2/8/04


    "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
    I'm coming from,
    to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
    president.
    I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
    war on my mind.
    - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


    "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
    based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
    these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
    he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
    And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
    - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


    "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
    Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
    - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


    "I think in this case international law
    stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
    - Richard Perle


    "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
    respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
    conventional power against his neighbours."
    - Colin Powell February 24 2001


    "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
    him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

    "He threatens not the United States."

    "But I also thought that we had pretty
    much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

    'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
    for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
    keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
    "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
    - Colin Powell February 26 2001
     
    gaffo, Sep 2, 2004
    #12
  13. the augur

    luminos Guest

    In the face of evil...........how nice you can presume that the holding of
    child hostages in Russia is not evil.

    Plonk
     
    luminos, Sep 2, 2004
    #13
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