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DVI versus SVGA?

Discussion in 'Nvidia' started by micky, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. micky

    micky Guest

    I hope I've used the right nomenclature everywhere.

    Is DVI sufficiently better than SVGA that a person who doesn't play
    games, just reads and writes email and looks at rather ordinary
    webpages, will notice the difference?

    I think the DVI video card in my friend's computer is failing. (More
    about that below**) and the monitor accepts both DVI and VGA input.

    So I could either remove the video card and rely on the onboard SVGA
    video, and for 5 or 10 dollars buy a male-VGA to male-VGA cable and
    just use SVGA. Or for more money, 20 to 30 dollars, I
    could replace the DVI card. It's a 7-year old computer and she
    doesn't want to spend much money. Will she notice the difference?
    (She's paying for it and may well balk at 25 dollars.)

    She does watch movies from the internet, but she uses a smart TV in a
    different room from the computer. . Does the computer monitor matter
    at all in such a setup? If she were to try to watch the movie on the
    computer, would SVGA be good enough?



    **She has a monitor that goes dark for a second or two or four,
    sometimes failrly often, and other times it works fine. She hasnt'
    figured out a pattern to it. I've used the computer and it really is
    annoying and should be fixed. .

    Another friend of hers switched monitors and decided the monitor is
    not the problem. I don't like taking his word for this, but my only
    spare monitor is a CRT and it's too heavy to drag over to her house.
    So I will take his word.

    The possible problems, counting only parts I can replace, are the thin
    screen Samsung 522A200B monitor and the video card, right?

    She has a Dell Optiplex 745, which, amazingly to me, comes in 4 sizes
    with the same name and number.

    Mini-tower, desktop, small form factor, and Ultra-Small Form Factor

    She has the small form factor. It has two slots and the video
    card is in the PCI-express slot.

    The current video card came with a cable splitter and I guess is
    enough to run two monitors, but maybe because she has a smart tv?, I
    don't think she'll ever use the second output. So can I just put in a
    single output card? (I have examples of this, a low-profile PCI-E
    card that will fit her computer, and sold under the Dell brand,, but I
    tried to email them to myself from her house and she required a
    password to send email!!! even though I could read her incoming mail
    with no password!!! I hope she'll send me the email today. )

    BTW, the current video card had a jack I've never seen before, about
    16 rows of pins, 4 per row, with one pin missing from the fourth row.
    Is there a name for this kind of jack?

    Thanks a lot.
     
    micky, Jul 20, 2013
    #1
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  2. micky

    Paul Guest

    I'm using VGA to an LCD monitor as I type this. I just zoomed in
    with my bionic eyeball, and I can't see anything to complain about.
    Back when I used the CRT instead of the LCD monitor, I used to get
    some ghosting along one edge of the picture. I don't seem to see that
    on my LCD. Maybe my bionic eyeball needs maintenance or something.

    If the monitor resolution was 1920x1080, you might see a difference
    in the visual quality (DVI would be better). At least on my monitor,
    I don't see a problem at 1280x1024 with the VGA.
    What is a "smart TV" ? Is the TV streaming movies from some other
    computer ? You'll need to be a bit more specific - even a make and
    model number for the TV, would provide some hints as to how it works.
    If it doesn't support streaming, then we know the TV isn't that smart.

    Can you see how the smart TV is connected, what wiring it uses ?
    Is it just a LAN based thing ? Or is there actually some kind of
    video cable running to that TV set ?
    You might want to test her monitor, on your computer. Or on some
    other known-good computer (i.e. some laptop output connector).

    Going dark for a second or two, could be the video card driver
    recovering from a problem. Is there anything of note in Event
    Viewer ? Maybe there are some error messages waiting for you.

    I'm a fan of booting alternate OSes. I'd use my Ubuntu USB key,
    boot the computer, and see if the picture remains stable. If
    it was the monitor, using the different OS, I would expect
    to continue seeing the outage. If it is a video driver issue,
    the frequency of blackouts might change. Or, disappear completely
    (due to differing thermal profile, cooler running etc).

    Also, now that I think of it, check to see if the cooling fan
    on the Quadro is dead! It might have stopped spinning, and the
    card could be overheating. You could try GPUZ, and check the
    temperature. The card may have a passive heatsink, in which case
    there's no fan to worry about. Every once in a while, someone
    comes here with a card, where the fan melted. And that's why
    the video card is so unstable.

    http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/SysInfo/GPU-Z/
    I'm not getting a hit in my search engine, for 522A200B.
    Is there a hyphen in there somewhere ? Could you spiff up
    that number for me ?
    The existing card could be a Quadro, with a DMS-59 connector on the
    faceplate. The Y cable makes up for the fact there isn't enough room
    on the faceplate, for two connectors.

    You can get low profile video cards, with dual faceplates. This
    works OK, if you have a spare slot in that machine, where the faceplate
    can be fitted.

    This $30 card, comes with three connectors on its regular sized faceplate.
    But it also includes two low profile faceplates. One faceplate has room
    for two connectors, the second faceplate has room for the VGA connector.
    The VGA connector is on a ribbon cable, which is how the thing can be flexible
    enough to be relocated. If the slot next to the video card was not
    occupied, you can put the second faceplate there. Otherwise, you'd only
    be able to use the HDMI and the DVI on the primary faceplate. Using a
    DVI-I to VGA adapter, would allow getting at the VGA signals on the
    DVI-I connector.

    http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/14-150-655-16.jpg

    http://products.xfxforce.com/en-us/Graphics_Cards/XFX_One_R-Series/ON-XFX1-PLS2
    \
    Output - DL-DVI-I : 1 <--- DL or Dual Link, means up to 2560x1600 via DVI,
    and VGA is available via "DVI-I to VGA adapter"
    Output - HDMI : 1
    Output - VGA : 1 <--- Connector fits on
    second low profile faceplate. Or, can be
    left dangling or unplugged.

    For $30, you would normally not get a "DVI-I to VGA adapter" included.
    The two thumbscrews, hold this in place on the DVI-I connector on the
    faceplate of the card. Then the VGA cable, plugs into the adapter.
    I have a few of these I got with other video cards, so I wouldn't have
    to buy one.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814999201
    That's the DMS-59, suitable for solving the small faceplate problem,
    and allowing the usage of a Y cable (two outputs at once in the
    normal dual head way).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DMS-59.jpg

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 20, 2013
    #2
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  3. micky

    micky Guest

    Good to hear.
    I should have checked, but I sure doubt it. Almost all of her
    settings are the default.
    I've been trying to get that straight too, especially since she's
    trying to talk me into buying one**.
    I'm sure it streams, from a wireless router. That's a LAN, right?

    But I figure it must be able to show what's stored on the computer
    also.
    I should have looked at that too. Didn't think of it. I will do so.
    I think I have some CD's with Ubuntu, and I have Hiram's whatever on
    CD with some abridged form of Windows.
    I should have thought of this too, and the diagnosis method.

    Although, the second time I used it, yesterday, it had been off for 30
    minutes, and the blacking out started right away and got better after
    5 minutes. So it's probably not heat.
    Can't read my own handwriting. S22A200B Sorry
    Here's the manual.
    http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/201105/20110514175003125/BN46-00079A-03Eng.pdf

    For some reason that probably doesn't apply to you, the last 3 pdf
    files, from different domains, I've downloaded and which opened in
    Firefox, only about 5 pages would show. I had to then, from the icon
    at the top of the FF pdf page download the file to my computer, and
    then I could read the entire pdf.

    When the cable is DVI-D (with a wide flat "pin" but no other holes or
    pins at one end) and the Y-connector that it connects to (or the new
    DVI card) is DVI-I (with 4 pin holes and something that just looks
    like a line in the picture, but might be a slot) , will the cable plug
    into the Y-connector. Is the line between the 2 rows of 2 pins
    actually a slot?


    THIS SEEEMS TO BE THE ANSWER:
    http://www.hisdigital.com/un/news_show-74.rhtml
    "The long flat pin on a DVI-I connector is wider than the same pin on
    a DVI-D connector, so it is not possible to connect a male DVI-I to a
    female DVI-D by removing the 4 analog pins. It is possible, however,
    to connect a male DVI-D cable to a female DVI-I connector. Many flat
    panel LCD monitors have only the DVI-D connection so that a DVI-D male
    to DVI-D male cable will suffice when connecting the monitor to a
    computer's DVI-I female connector."

    So I'm good to go with a; card with a female connector, whether it's
    DVI-D or DVI-I. Right? Since the calbe is DVI-D and certainly
    male too.

    Using the terminology from this page:
    http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...start=0&ndsp=10&tx=147&ty=61&biw=1152&bih=672



    These 2 paragraphs were my first attempt at asking the question in the
    paragraphs above. You can probably ignore these 3 paragraphs, unless
    the question above was also incomprehensible. ;-)
    You don't have to dl the file to answer this question. On page 15 or
    so the file, it shows the DVI calbe, with a portion of it
    that is a 3 x 8 array of pins, and next to that is one flat piece of
    metal, a "very wide pin" or socket, at each end of the cable.

    But when I looked at the cable it looked like that where it connected
    to the monitor, but at the other end, where it connected to the
    Y-connector, the Y connector had a 3x8 array and a 2x2 array. Now
    I'm not sure I actually looked at the cable, and not just the
    Y-connector. And I think I assumed it was 2x2 pins and not one wide
    flat piece of metal.

    -------------------
    Yes, that must be it.
    Yew, I get it.
    She doesn't need dual, I think. The computer came that way for some
    reason. (I think her friend had used it before he gave it to her, or
    maybe it was surplus at his job.)
    Your guess is correct. The next slot is empty.
    I understand.
    Aha. Well, now I'll know what it is.



    ** (OT: I would buy a smart tv if any of them had OUTput jacks for
    the signal. But they seem to have only various kinds of INput
    jacks, except for external speakers. Right now I have a DVDR with a
    digital tuner (and a hard drive) and I use that to watch tv for the
    whole house. 5 tv's connected by co-ax, with a couple signal
    amplifers where too many splitters made the signal too weak*** so I
    can watch the same thing even when I go from room to room.

    If I could use a fancy tv to receive and detect tv signals from the
    web, and then connect that to the DVDR and from there to the rest of
    the house, that would be great, but like I say, there are no output
    jacks. So the alternative is to buy several smart tvs and at 5 or
    600 apiece that's a lot of money. )

    ***Actually, every two splitters, I need a signal amp. I've been
    running these amps constantly for 30 years I don't think either has
    failed,




    Reference for me, from the webpage for the card you suggested.
    "This card [The XFX One R-Series graphics card] will do it all from
    playing games, to watching HD and Blu-Ray movies in 3D, to editing
    photos and videos, to just improving your overall everyday
    productivity by speeding up your applications from word processors to
    spreadsheets. This card truly is the one card that does it all. "

    ON-XFX1-PLS2
     
    micky, Jul 20, 2013
    #3
  4. micky

    micky Guest

    She probably wouldn't let me take it out of the house. She got all
    upset Thursday night when I had her disconnect the calble to see what
    the pins looked like, and then she couldn't get it plugged in again,
    even though it was 10 minutes from her usual bed time. I offered to
    come over right away or the next day, and neither was good enough for
    her. What a pain she is. But at least this all reinforces my
    decision not to marry her.

    I should have looked at that too. Didn't think of it. I will do so.

    In the past I've wanted to install Team Viewer, but she objected, and
    for the last year or more hasn't asked for computer help. This time I
    thought the issue was hardware only but since it's not, I'm going to
    go over once more if she agrees to let me install Team Viewer. (She
    seems to think someone, maybe even me, will be operating her computer
    behind her back. So far my efforts have been unsuccessful to tell her
    that can't happen if she closes team viewer. I'm glad my brother is
    sensible. I've been able to fix his computer problems 4 times so far,
    even though he's 800 miles away. Team Viewer is great, and free for
    individual use.
     
    micky, Jul 20, 2013
    #4
  5. micky

    Paul Guest

    The customer is always right. It they don't want Teamviewer,
    don't use Teamviewer.

    You see, some people, they've had copies of Back Orifice installed
    on their computer. And they've been harassed remotely. If you
    run into such a person, they're so paranoid after a while,
    they're almost mental. If you run into such a person,
    keep your TeamViewer to yourself. And if that person
    gets flushed in the face (reddish looking), run :)

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 20, 2013
    #5
  6. micky

    Paul Guest

    They make ones that work from Wifi, and ones that work via Ethernet (wired).
    In some cases, Windows Media Player is supposed to be able to
    stream to a TV set. But you have to be a Computer Science major
    to get it working. In some cases, the TV sets, even have
    different playback options (movie format support), as a function of
    whether you use a USB port on the TV, or stream a movie to it.

    So it is a 1920x1080 LCD.

    http://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/1328777594.jpeg

    Side view looks like DVI-D and VGA. Perhaps a DVI-D cable from
    monitor to DVI-I video card will work.

    http://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/1328777600.jpeg
    I think you're OK. And if you want to run two VGA, you can plug
    a DVI-I to VGA adapter into the DVI-I port on the video card.
    While I've seen HDMI to DVI adapters, I don't know anything about
    them (such as if there are any issues or not with them). With the card
    with the three connectors, there are some conversion options.

    Some of the business machines, come with a cheap Quadro as a means of
    driving two monitors from a low profile slot. In terms of gaming potential,
    it would rate down there with my FX5200.

    The sample card I picked out (and picked, based on price),
    isn't a strong card either. It's also a power sipping card,
    and doesn't use a lot of electricity. A gamer would not be
    happy with it - maybe you could play SIMs on it. It should
    do fine for movie playback, and the GPU is typically used
    for HTPC builds. It might draw a little less power than
    the Quadro. Some of the older generation cards, were around
    30W. Some of the latest video cards, are less than that,
    especially at idle.

    They would be loathe to put output jacks on a modern TV set,
    because they could get in trouble with DMCA. That's what
    restricts the I/O options we have. Anything that makes copying
    movies, at a certain resolution possible, is to be avoided.
    If the TV had composite video output (crap), they wouldn't
    care about that. Outputs have stuff like MacroVision
    installed as an option. HDMI has HDCP and encryption at
    the 1920x1080 level, to prevent copying. All of which can
    be defeated without too much trouble, by the people who
    make copies as professional pirates. I think the HDCP
    encryption has been cracked. Just about every encryption
    has met some fate.

    Also, some of the output options on modern video cards
    have disappeared. Such as the component option. I think
    you'll find those connectors on the back of some TV sets.
    My card can drive this, but I don't have any gear to
    connect it to.

    "Mini-DIN to YPbPr"
    http://www.geekshive.com/item_image/75/4/1340012770

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 20, 2013
    #6
  7. micky

    Jon Danniken Guest

    I have one of those connected to the x800 in my HTPC, feeding my old
    (CRT) HDTV. I was originally planning on using a DVI to HDMI cable, but
    from my reading on the subject there is no benefit in using HDMI over
    component, which is fortunate because that means one less thing to have
    to buy.

    Jon
     
    Jon Danniken, Jul 22, 2013
    #7
  8. micky

    Tecknomage Guest

    Q>
    Q> I hope I've used the right nomenclature everywhere.
    Q>
    Q> Is DVI sufficiently better than SVGA that a person who doesn't play
    Q> games, just reads and writes email and looks at rather ordinary
    Q> webpages, will notice the difference?
    Q>
    Q> I think the DVI video card in my friend's computer is failing. (More
    Q> about that below**) and the monitor accepts both DVI and VGA input.
    Q>
    Q> So I could either remove the video card and rely on the onboard SVGA
    Q> video, and for 5 or 10 dollars buy a male-VGA to male-VGA cable and
    Q> just use SVGA. Or for more money, 20 to 30 dollars, I
    Q> could replace the DVI card. It's a 7-year old computer and she
    Q> doesn't want to spend much money. Will she notice the difference?
    Q> (She's paying for it and may well balk at 25 dollars.)
    Q>
    Q> She does watch movies from the internet, but she uses a smart TV in a
    Q> different room from the computer. . Does the computer monitor matter
    Q> at all in such a setup? If she were to try to watch the movie on the
    Q> computer, would SVGA be good enough?
    Q>
    Q>

    First, stick with DVI. SVGA has a problem with distortion and the fit
    of the video to the screen size.



    Q>
    Q> **She has a monitor that goes dark for a second or two or four,
    Q> sometimes failrly often, and other times it works fine. She hasnt'
    Q> figured out a pattern to it. I've used the computer and it really is
    Q> annoying and should be fixed. .
    Q>

    This MAY be a symptom of a heat problem. Her system overheating.


    Q> Another friend of hers switched monitors and decided the monitor is
    Q> not the problem. I don't like taking his word for this, but my only
    Q> spare monitor is a CRT and it's too heavy to drag over to her house.
    Q> So I will take his word.
    Q>
    Q> The possible problems, counting only parts I can replace, are the thin
    Q> screen Samsung 522A200B monitor and the video card, right?
    Q>
    Q> She has a Dell Optiplex 745, which, amazingly to me, comes in 4 sizes
    Q> with the same name and number.
    Q>
    Q> Mini-tower, desktop, small form factor, and Ultra-Small Form Factor

    You should have use a WEB link to show which she has, like this one...
    http://www.dell.com/us/dfb/p/optiplex-745/pd

    Is it the middle one on the stack in the pic?


    Q>
    Q> She has the small form factor. It has two slots and the video
    Q> card is in the PCI-express slot.
    Q>
    Q> The current video card came with a cable splitter and I guess is
    Q> enough to run two monitors,

    Exactly. One of the feature of Model 745 is the built-in dual-monitor
    capability.

    I retired from a company at their IT Tech and we used this Dell model,
    the full tower and the "Tool Box" (top system in the pic above). The
    software engineers use dual monitors.


    Q> but maybe because she has a smart tv?, I
    Q> don't think she'll ever use the second output. So can I just put in a
    Q> single output card? (I have examples of this, a low-profile PCI-E
    Q> card that will fit her computer, and sold under the Dell brand,, but I
    Q> tried to email them to myself from her house and she required a
    Q> password to send email!!! even though I could read her incoming mail
    Q> with no password!!! I hope she'll send me the email today. )
    Q>
    Q> BTW, the current video card had a jack I've never seen before, about
    Q> 16 rows of pins, 4 per row, with one pin missing from the fourth row.
    Q> Is there a name for this kind of jack?
    Q>

    I assume you're talking about the jack on the back of the system, that
    is to accommodate the dual-monitor feature. It supplies the signals
    used by the Y-cable to run two monitors.


    I suspect one of two things:

    - Her system is overheating, so check to see ALL fans are working.
    Some can be hard to see because it is so compact.

    - This model is old. She may just need a new one.


    But, you should confirm that it is not her monitor. A local computer
    repair shop here in San Diego will lend a monitor for a small
    fee+deposit. Of course you get the deposit back when you return the
    monitor within one working day. You may want to see if you have such
    a shop in your area OR find a friend who would lend you a monitor
    similar to her's.



    IF she is considering a new system, I highly suggest buying from Dell
    ONLINE. That's because any system can be customized; adding/changing
    options (more memory, hard drive size, Windows 7 or 8, software
    packages, etc.).

    http://www.dell.com/

    NOTES:

    - Windows 8 is built for touch-screen systems like tablet systems, it
    is not best for normal desktops.

    - I recommend staying away from the all-in-one models. They are
    *almost* irreparable and suffer from the same heat problems that all
    compact system have.

    Good luck.



    --
    =========== Tecknomage ===========
    Computer Systems Specialist
    IT Technician
    (retired)
    San Diego, CA
     
    Tecknomage, Jul 22, 2013
    #8
  9. micky

    micky Guest

    I intend tp reply to your post later, but now I want to catch you and
    everyone up on the problem with the computer video.

    I was looking at the video card you picked out, and some others in the
    20 to 30 dollar range, and thought I'd look at MicroCenter's webpage.
    They have a store in Baltimore. I always had the feeling that
    Comp-USA and the other one were expensive, but somehow MicroCenter
    gives the imprression that it's not

    So I looked for a card and they had nothing that was low-profile,
    either on the web or in the store here (the webpage can do both).

    So I looked for a VGA-VGA cable, (and I'd use the on-board VGA
    circuit) and they had one that was $9.99, marked down to 0.99, marked
    down to $0.01. That seemed like a good price. When I tried to
    order it online, it kept changing the price to zero and then the
    Checkout button never appeared, but I tried it from the beginning and
    got 1 cent, and I checked out, and it even gave me the option of not
    paying, and they would hold it at the store for about 3 days (after
    which it would taken away from me), and I could pay when I picked it
    up. So I got it that night, and the in-store price was zero.

    Then the hamfest was Sunday morning, and I was sure they wouldn't have
    the card, given that Microcenter didn't have it, even in their
    warehouse.

    Well, one guy had the whole computer that my friend has, 2 of them,
    and the next size larger too, 2 or 3 of them. And he had a box of
    videocards, complete with splitter and driver CD. For $13. But
    those were the ones that fit the bigger computer. He said he had the
    ones for the smaller computer at home, and he'd mail one for $15. I'm
    pretty sure this is the very model that Dell used in the first place,
    Quite a coincidence, I think.

    So I go her house and put in the VGA cable and it doesn't work of
    course so I take out the non-functioning cable, and now the VGA works,
    but only as "Default Monitor". The image is stretched out
    hosizontally, and when I go to highter resolutions, it makes the print
    too small.

    So I try to dl the Dell drivers, and they seem to be installed
    already. Then I reaize that it must be the Samsung drivers that I
    need, but eventually figure out that they've been dl'd already too,
    I try to reinstall them but neither Dell nor SAmsung will install.
    And I get a message that I can't install the monitor software until I
    do the graphics card, (or vice versa) and separately I get a message I
    cann't install the graphics card.

    I want to just lieave it like it is, which isn't bad imo, and order
    the card from the guy and figure we'd get it Wednesday or Thursday,
    but she says it's "distracting" the way it is. So I put it back the
    way it is. For me the monitor has already started blinking off, but
    she hasn't seen that yet. Maybe just touching it fixed it. That's
    how I often fix things.

    Her father died last week and the funeral was Monday, so it was no
    time to give her a hard time. Eventually the monitor will be bad for
    her again, probably, and

    then we'll either get the original video card (used I guess for 4 to 6
    years) or the one you suiggested, new, or one of the two other ones.

    If you were a cheapskate, which one would you buy, the used for 15 or
    one of the others for 20 to 30???
    I think the used cards were removed from the same make and model
    computer that she has -- After all, he had two of them for sale -- and
    that seems like a big reason to pick them. .



    Even though she just 2 weeks ago bought a 2012 car for 25 or 30K or
    more, I can see her wanting the 15 dollar one. OTOH, she's
    distrustful of used. (Cars and furniture were the only things she
    bought used. She had bought her last 3 cars used, so it was quite a
    change to buy a 2012.



    I can see her wanting the one for 15
     
    micky, Jul 24, 2013
    #9
  10. micky

    Paul Guest

    If it's the same Quadro as was in there previously, I think it's worth it.

    What you have to watch for, in used video cards, is anything from the
    "NVidia Fail" era. NVidia had a number of GPU chips, with some kind of
    solder ball problem. And the solder would fail (crack), and make intermittent
    connections. Some users did the "Easy Bake" repair, putting the card
    into an oven for a period of time, to try to repair the solder.

    So if someone had a card from that era for sale, I'd need to run the
    card number, track down the GPU used, and verify whether it was
    an affected one or not. NVidia laid aside several hundred million dollars
    to clean up that mess, and I don't think that many end users got to
    benefit from the money. And some of the manufacturers were pretty sleazy too.
    Like the ones where a defective GPU was used in a laptop, and the
    manufacturer distributed a new BIOS, to turn up the fan in the computer,
    keeping the GPU cool, until it failed outside the warranty period.

    But if the Quadro lasted a long time in her PC, it's probably OK
    to pick up another one of those used. The fan could certainly wear
    out on it (if it is a fan-cooled one). In which case, there are
    also after-market coolers that you can use as a replacement.
    But considering the price target in this case, this wouldn't
    be a card where you'd do that. Picking up the cooler, would
    cost more than the card.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 24, 2013
    #10
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