experiences with jetway cube 150w ps?

Discussion in 'Shuttle' started by Bill J, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. Bill J

    Bill J Guest

    Jetway has a low priced cube barebones set with intel 845GV chipset,
    but only 150W PS. Would this be OK for light duty use with a Celeron
    2ghz CPU and no cards in the PCI slot? Or is the 150W PS just too
    underpowered for reliable use?
     
    Bill J, Feb 5, 2004
    #1
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  2. > Jetway has a low priced cube barebones set with intel 845GV chipset,
    > but only 150W PS. Would this be OK for light duty use with a Celeron
    > 2ghz CPU and no cards in the PCI slot? Or is the 150W PS just too
    > underpowered for reliable use?


    Should be relatively ok.

    The lower-power Celerons (1.2Ghz Tualatin Skt 370) were a very
    good CPU - about 32W, about the same as a 1.7Ghz Skt478 Celeron
    since the latter had only a 128KB cache vs the former 256B cache.
    Of course, Intel knew people buying skt370 lock themselves out of
    an upgrade path thro to P4-3.06-HT, so a ST win has LT cost. That
    is unless that power is quite sufficient which for many it is.

    So what is required for a Cel2Ghz or full P4 processor?
    A good benchmark is the Mini-ITX motherboards which come in
    a P4 flavour now, with a laptop-style silent PSU brick - of 120W.

    So a 150W PSU is fine quite frankly, some simple checks:
    o P4-3.06-Northwood = 75W
    o Graphics card embedded = 20W, add-on top-end = 55W
    o RAM/10,000rpm-HD = 20W
    o Total at *100% load* is 150W

    You are planning on...
    o Cel-2Ghz + Integrated Video + no PCI cards
    o 150W will be fine, yet allow you some upgrade room

    Of course, it's always worth shopping around - but Wattage is ok.
    Eventually I think Shuttle & others may move to the P-M architecture,
    since it consumes so much less power (1/4) yet gives solid performance.

    The PSU is likely to be a sub-1U 82mm wide affair I suspect, "std".
    --
    Dorothy Bradbury
    www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan for fans, books & other items
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm (Direct)
     
    Dorothy Bradbury, Feb 6, 2004
    #2
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  3. Bill J

    Bill J Guest

    Thanks veyr much for this info. Some addl. questions. What is the
    exact wattage used by a 2ghz 478 128kb l2 cache celeron? 2.4ghz same?

    Would a high end video card really consume 55W? I thought the PCI
    spec max was around 20W or so?

    What about the motherboard in general? I see your data for HD and
    RAM, but the motherboard has the bridges, and the extensive i/o (on
    board lan, fdd, hdd, usb, etc. etc.).

    Thanks

    "Dorothy Bradbury" <> wrote in message news:<0RBUb.18130$>...
    > > Jetway has a low priced cube barebones set with intel 845GV chipset,
    > > but only 150W PS. Would this be OK for light duty use with a Celeron
    > > 2ghz CPU and no cards in the PCI slot? Or is the 150W PS just too
    > > underpowered for reliable use?

    >
    > Should be relatively ok.
    >
    > The lower-power Celerons (1.2Ghz Tualatin Skt 370) were a very
    > good CPU - about 32W, about the same as a 1.7Ghz Skt478 Celeron
    > since the latter had only a 128KB cache vs the former 256B cache.
    > Of course, Intel knew people buying skt370 lock themselves out of
    > an upgrade path thro to P4-3.06-HT, so a ST win has LT cost. That
    > is unless that power is quite sufficient which for many it is.
    >
    > So what is required for a Cel2Ghz or full P4 processor?
    > A good benchmark is the Mini-ITX motherboards which come in
    > a P4 flavour now, with a laptop-style silent PSU brick - of 120W.
    >
    > So a 150W PSU is fine quite frankly, some simple checks:
    > o P4-3.06-Northwood = 75W
    > o Graphics card embedded = 20W, add-on top-end = 55W
    > o RAM/10,000rpm-HD = 20W
    > o Total at *100% load* is 150W
    >
    > You are planning on...
    > o Cel-2Ghz + Integrated Video + no PCI cards
    > o 150W will be fine, yet allow you some upgrade room
    >
    > Of course, it's always worth shopping around - but Wattage is ok.
    > Eventually I think Shuttle & others may move to the P-M architecture,
    > since it consumes so much less power (1/4) yet gives solid performance.
    >
    > The PSU is likely to be a sub-1U 82mm wide affair I suspect, "std".
     
    Bill J, Feb 6, 2004
    #3
  4. > Thanks veyr much for this info. Some addl. questions. What is the
    > exact wattage used by a 2ghz 478 128kb l2 cache celeron? 2.4ghz same?


    You'd have to check with Intel's website - it will list two figures, the practical
    design thermal wattage and the theoretical thermal output (which doesn't apply).

    > Would a high end video card really consume 55W? I thought the PCI
    > spec max was around 20W or so?


    Yes they can - they will eventually go beyond 75W since they are
    outpacing CPU on transistor count & have a lot of hot running RAM.

    They use a separate power-connector on some as I recall, I think the
    hottest graphics card is over 130W - but that uses a separate feed, is
    for a specialist application and is several thousand dollars (>4,000$US).

    > What about the motherboard in general? I see your data for HD and
    > RAM, but the motherboard has the bridges, and the extensive i/o (on
    > board lan, fdd, hdd, usb, etc. etc.).


    I've included it in the graphics card effectively, it's quite small. All that
    I/O is only about 5-8W, onboard graphics are 10-25W, and then you
    go beyond that figure when you hit the very hot graphics cards.

    A typical PC will draw about 170W at typical usage, less at idle.
    That's up from 85W a few years back, low-power PCs about 110W.

    Remember big servers have 500-680W PSUs because they often have
    4-7-14 very hot high-speed 15.3k-rpm SCSI drives - *each* >25W,
    plus twin RAID cards which have hot CPUs, plus lots of RAM.

    As I posted in reply to someone today...
    It comes down to the spec of the PC:
    o Mini-ITX P4 PC + 7200rpm 3.5" + onboard graphics
    ---- use Mini-ITX DC-to-DC convertor board & laptop PSU brick
    ---- that is available in 120W - yes, a P4 run off a 120W laptop PSU
    o Mini-ITX P4 PC + 7200rpm 3.5" + top-end graphics
    ---- use the 143-170W laptop-brick & convertor board
    o P4 with 7x 15.3k-rpm SCSI drives, RAID controller
    ---- obviously you need another 250W for the HD
    ---- so here is where the 450-550W PSUs come in

    So it comes down to application.

    The reason people went to bigger PSUs was because the
    low-wattage ones were basically noisy &/or low-quality.

    Conversely, FSP-Group/Sparkle/SPI (all same company) do
    a perfectly good 250W & 350W ATX PSU. Others do ok
    150-250-300W 1U PSU for smaller form factors, and the
    Shuttle still has a 150-250W PSU for top-end P4 systems.

    Low quality PSUs can't cope with even suppling 80% of rated
    load continually 24/7, whereas quality ones can handle 100%.
    So people went for higher wattage for safety, when in reality
    a properly engineered smaller PSU would do quite perfectly.

    Antec, Sparkle & others are good quality PSUs - another is
    PC-Power-&-Cooling but they & Antec just spec a PSU that
    is made for them, and just spec a higher level than cheap-end.


    A EPIA and /just about/ a Cel-1.2 Tualatin (32W) can be run
    on a 60W Morex laptop brick PSU & DC-to-DC convertor.
    You'd probably need low-end integrated graphics (old skt 370),
    and obviously use a 2.5" disk - but it's possible to squeeze it in.
    --
    Dorothy Bradbury
    www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan for fans, books & other items
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm (Direct)
     
    Dorothy Bradbury, Feb 7, 2004
    #4
  5. Bill J

    Bill J Guest

    Thanks again for the great info.!

    Yes, I've done some research with the mini ITX form factor and hope to
    build a fanless pc appliance soon.

    Some of the concerns for my primary project are:

    1. Need absolute Intel compatibility. Some VIA C3 processors have
    trouble there. (lame audio converter utility fails)

    2. Need USB 2.0 and/or IEEE1394 (new mini-ITX have these, but are
    expensive), and standard DDR 184 pin memory interface, 333Mhz (PC2700
    or faster) preferred.

    3. Need integer performance > 2Ghz Celeron (VIA 1.3's equal my Celeron
    500s... in the benchmarks and applications that I run)

    4. Need price with case, motherboard, power supply, and CPU < US $220
    (mini-ITX solutions today are ~30% more or so)

    I've browsed your fans page, and may purchase some, if you ship to the
    US! Thanks!


    "Dorothy Bradbury" <> wrote in message news:<9G5Vb.790$>...
    > > Thanks veyr much for this info. Some addl. questions. What is the
    > > exact wattage used by a 2ghz 478 128kb l2 cache celeron? 2.4ghz same?

    >
    > You'd have to check with Intel's website - it will list two figures, the practical
    > design thermal wattage and the theoretical thermal output (which doesn't apply).
    >
    > > Would a high end video card really consume 55W? I thought the PCI
    > > spec max was around 20W or so?

    >
    > Yes they can - they will eventually go beyond 75W since they are
    > outpacing CPU on transistor count & have a lot of hot running RAM.
    >
    > They use a separate power-connector on some as I recall, I think the
    > hottest graphics card is over 130W - but that uses a separate feed, is
    > for a specialist application and is several thousand dollars (>4,000$US).
    >
    > > What about the motherboard in general? I see your data for HD and
    > > RAM, but the motherboard has the bridges, and the extensive i/o (on
    > > board lan, fdd, hdd, usb, etc. etc.).

    >
    > I've included it in the graphics card effectively, it's quite small. All that
    > I/O is only about 5-8W, onboard graphics are 10-25W, and then you
    > go beyond that figure when you hit the very hot graphics cards.
    >
    > A typical PC will draw about 170W at typical usage, less at idle.
    > That's up from 85W a few years back, low-power PCs about 110W.
    >
    > Remember big servers have 500-680W PSUs because they often have
    > 4-7-14 very hot high-speed 15.3k-rpm SCSI drives - *each* >25W,
    > plus twin RAID cards which have hot CPUs, plus lots of RAM.
    >
    > As I posted in reply to someone today...
    > It comes down to the spec of the PC:
    > o Mini-ITX P4 PC + 7200rpm 3.5" + onboard graphics
    > ---- use Mini-ITX DC-to-DC convertor board & laptop PSU brick
    > ---- that is available in 120W - yes, a P4 run off a 120W laptop PSU
    > o Mini-ITX P4 PC + 7200rpm 3.5" + top-end graphics
    > ---- use the 143-170W laptop-brick & convertor board
    > o P4 with 7x 15.3k-rpm SCSI drives, RAID controller
    > ---- obviously you need another 250W for the HD
    > ---- so here is where the 450-550W PSUs come in
    >
    > So it comes down to application.
    >
    > The reason people went to bigger PSUs was because the
    > low-wattage ones were basically noisy &/or low-quality.
    >
    > Conversely, FSP-Group/Sparkle/SPI (all same company) do
    > a perfectly good 250W & 350W ATX PSU. Others do ok
    > 150-250-300W 1U PSU for smaller form factors, and the
    > Shuttle still has a 150-250W PSU for top-end P4 systems.
    >
    > Low quality PSUs can't cope with even suppling 80% of rated
    > load continually 24/7, whereas quality ones can handle 100%.
    > So people went for higher wattage for safety, when in reality
    > a properly engineered smaller PSU would do quite perfectly.
    >
    > Antec, Sparkle & others are good quality PSUs - another is
    > PC-Power-&-Cooling but they & Antec just spec a PSU that
    > is made for them, and just spec a higher level than cheap-end.
    >
    >
    > A EPIA and /just about/ a Cel-1.2 Tualatin (32W) can be run
    > on a 60W Morex laptop brick PSU & DC-to-DC convertor.
    > You'd probably need low-end integrated graphics (old skt 370),
    > and obviously use a 2.5" disk - but it's possible to squeeze it in.
     
    Bill J, Feb 8, 2004
    #5
  6. > Yes, I've done some research with the mini ITX form factor and hope to
    > build a fanless pc appliance soon.
    >
    > 1. Need absolute Intel compatibility. Some VIA C3 processors have
    > trouble there. (lame audio converter utility fails)
    > 3. Need integer performance > 2Ghz Celeron (VIA 1.3's equal my Celeron
    > 500s... in the benchmarks and applications that I run)


    Two solutions:
    1) P4 Mini-ITX board - about 120ukp here, probably 140$US
    Benefit:
    o Takes standard S478 chip -- Celeron & P4
    o Fanless PSU-able -- 120W DC-to-DC convertor (143W, 170W etc)
    Problem:
    o Heat -- Celeron kick out a lot of heat, as do P4s
    o Not Fanless CPU -- even with a flower heatsink, you need thro-airflow

    That said, not hard to do a true blow-thro case with 25cfm being enough.

    2) P-M P4-M Mini-ITX board - listed but not seem them retailed yet
    Benefit
    o Very low power CPU -- P-M is 22W yet *very* good performance
    o Fanless PSU-able -- cheaper 60W models may work for P-M
    Problem
    o P-M difficult to get, P-4M easier re cheap-as-chips on Ebay


    There is a strong market for a P-M SOHO appliance, which would
    knock the EPIA offering quite hard. Check the motherboards/chipsets.

    To put the 22W in perspective of the P-M processor, that is 2/3rds of
    the heat output of the old favourite Celeron-Tualatin-1.2Ghz-skt370 22W.

    > 2. Need USB 2.0 and/or IEEE1394 (new mini-ITX have these, but are
    > expensive), and standard DDR 184 pin memory interface, 333Mhz (PC2700
    > or faster) preferred.


    Faster than 333 would mean 800Mhz bus I assume, see above.

    > 4. Need price with case, motherboard, power supply, and CPU < US $220
    > (mini-ITX solutions today are ~30% more or so)


    Sounds like a compute-brick, hmm, stack em, cube-em & compute-em :)

    > I've browsed your fans page, and may purchase some, if you ship to the
    > US! Thanks!


    Yes I do - but check US prices as always.

    Thanks.
    --
    Dorothy Bradbury
     
    Dorothy Bradbury, Feb 9, 2004
    #6
  7. Bill J

    Bill J Guest

    Hi Dorothy and anyone else monitoring this thread,
    I'm curious if you would think the 200W cube jetway unit at
    newegg.com for about $8 more might be a better deal. It uses SIS
    chipsets rather than the intel 845gv, but has a 200w ps instead of
    150w. any thoughts?

    thanks!

    "Dorothy Bradbury" <> wrote in message news:<hGQVb.2265$>...
    > > Yes, I've done some research with the mini ITX form factor and hope to
    > > build a fanless pc appliance soon.
    > >
    > > 1. Need absolute Intel compatibility. Some VIA C3 processors have
    > > trouble there. (lame audio converter utility fails)
    > > 3. Need integer performance > 2Ghz Celeron (VIA 1.3's equal my Celeron
    > > 500s... in the benchmarks and applications that I run)

    >
    > Two solutions:
    > 1) P4 Mini-ITX board - about 120ukp here, probably 140$US
    > Benefit:
    > o Takes standard S478 chip -- Celeron & P4
    > o Fanless PSU-able -- 120W DC-to-DC convertor (143W, 170W etc)
    > Problem:
    > o Heat -- Celeron kick out a lot of heat, as do P4s
    > o Not Fanless CPU -- even with a flower heatsink, you need thro-airflow
    >
    > That said, not hard to do a true blow-thro case with 25cfm being enough.
    >
    > 2) P-M P4-M Mini-ITX board - listed but not seem them retailed yet
    > Benefit
    > o Very low power CPU -- P-M is 22W yet *very* good performance
    > o Fanless PSU-able -- cheaper 60W models may work for P-M
    > Problem
    > o P-M difficult to get, P-4M easier re cheap-as-chips on Ebay
    >
    >
    > There is a strong market for a P-M SOHO appliance, which would
    > knock the EPIA offering quite hard. Check the motherboards/chipsets.
    >
    > To put the 22W in perspective of the P-M processor, that is 2/3rds of
    > the heat output of the old favourite Celeron-Tualatin-1.2Ghz-skt370 22W.
    >
    > > 2. Need USB 2.0 and/or IEEE1394 (new mini-ITX have these, but are
    > > expensive), and standard DDR 184 pin memory interface, 333Mhz (PC2700
    > > or faster) preferred.

    >
    > Faster than 333 would mean 800Mhz bus I assume, see above.
    >
    > > 4. Need price with case, motherboard, power supply, and CPU < US $220
    > > (mini-ITX solutions today are ~30% more or so)

    >
    > Sounds like a compute-brick, hmm, stack em, cube-em & compute-em :)
    >
    > > I've browsed your fans page, and may purchase some, if you ship to the
    > > US! Thanks!

    >
    > Yes I do - but check US prices as always.
    >
    > Thanks.
     
    Bill J, Feb 16, 2004
    #7
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