Ghost 10 sucks for drive cloning....

Discussion in 'Dell' started by S.Lewis, Feb 6, 2006.

  1. Ah, never tried that, I'll have to give it a shot.

    Timothy knows this, I'm sure, but anyone else following this thread
    might want to be sure they check in Disk Manager (right-click on My
    Computer, Manage, select Disk Management) and see which drive is
    listed as "(System)" when booting with two drives which are identical
    copies of each other. In the instances that I've seen, the second
    (mirror copy) drive, "P", ends up as the system drive, while the
    original is still "C", and installing new programs really scrambles
    things up.
    FWIW, I've damaged IDE interfaces on hard drives by leaving them
    powered off while connected to the IDE cable of a powered-on machine.
    It only happened once, but I'd use removable hard drive trays and
    physically remove the drives from the machine instead of just removing
    power from them. AFAICT this all goes away with SATA, just thought
    I'd point it out...
    William P.N. Smith, Feb 9, 2006
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  2. So far, it's as expected. When the HD at the head of the hard drive boot order
    is removed, the next in line moves to the head of the HD boot order - regardless
    of jumpering. In my system (Dimension XPS-R450), it's only the initial *default*
    HD boot order that has any correspondence at all to jumpering. In that default
    situation, the HD boot order is arranged thus:
    Master, IDE ch. 0,
    Slave, IDE ch. 0,
    Master, IDE ch. 1,
    Slave, IDE ch. 1.

    But since that HD boot order can be changed manually in the BIOS, jumpering
    is not permanently relevant.

    The boot.ini files in the "active" partition on both HDs have only one
    entry, making for a mono-boot system. Add a 2nd entry to both of them
    that is identical to the 1st entry under "[operating systems]". Assuming
    that the OS is in the 1st partition on both HDs, the 1st entry should
    look about like this:
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="name of 1st OS" /fastdetect

    As the 2nd line, copy this, but substitute "rdisk(1)" for "rdisk(0)", indicating
    the 2nd HD in the HD boot order. To identify HD0 in the boot menu, set the
    string between quotes on the 1st line to be something like "OS on HD0" and
    the string on the 2nd line to be "OS on HD1". On HD1, make the 1st line
    say "OS on HD1", and the 2nd line "OS on HD0". Then, when ntldr displays
    the boot menu, you'll know which HD is in control, i.e. which boot.ini's menu
    is being displayed. Also, set the TIMEOUT value to, say 10, to give you
    10 seconds to decide which option to select.

    When you multi-boot different versions of the same OS, it can be
    difficult to know which version is running. You can solve that by using
    different Desktop backgrounds or by putting a folder on the Desktop
    with a name which identifies the OS version. In my system, I usually
    have 8 to 10 clones resident on 3 HDs, and I use the folder method
    to identify each while it's running. I also have comment lines in the
    boot.ini entries that name not only the HD, but also the partition that
    the boot.ini is on.

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006
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  3. In Microsoft's perverse terminology (which I've read is for historical
    reasons), the "system" Local Disk is the partition that is "active" and
    thus where the boot files boot.ini/ntldr/ reside. The "boot"
    Local Disk is the partition where the operating system resides. This
    is completely backward intuitively - that the "system" partition holds
    the boot files, and the "boot" partition holds the operating system - but
    that's Microsoft.

    In all of my cloning experience, both the clone and the "parent"
    call themselves "Local Disk (C:)" when they are running, and they
    call the other OS's partition some other letter. If you install a 2nd
    OS while the 1st OS's partition is visible, the 2nd OS gets put into
    a partition named with some other letter, and that results in the 2nd
    OS calling its own partition something other than "C:". To have the
    running OS always calls its own partition "C:", install all OSes in
    the only partition visible at the time of installation. If there are data
    partitions existing on the same HD when you do the install, you
    can "hide" them using a 3rd-party utility such as Partition Magic,
    but Partition Magic will have to be run from CD or from another
    HD (which thereafter must be removed), and things can get messy.
    Of course, if you have a bunch of data partitions, each to be
    accessible to the running partition, path names to those data
    partitions can be dependent on the OS that runs, and scripts and
    shortcuts can become invalid. In a multi-boot system, therefore,
    things should be kept simple by putting all programs and data and
    the OS in the same partition. If you *have* to have a data partition,
    put it on its own HD so it will more likely be assigned the same
    letter regardless of which OS runs.

    This is a good caution. In my machine, there never has been any
    such damage, but that may be dependent on the hard drive model
    and manufacturer. FYI, I've always used Maxtor hard drives, and I
    switch both of the two voltage lines (I use a DPDT switch wired as
    a DPST switch).

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006
  4. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    Tim, when I was copying the partition with Partition Magic, this second line
    was added automatically by PM. I thought how clever. I did put a text
    document on the desktop of the OS on the first HD so I could identify that

    From the PM boot CD I could juggle the second HD partition to Active or
    Hidden (I know it needs to be Active to boot) but I couldn't make the OS
    partition on the first HD become Hidden. This is how pqboot works (by hiding
    OS partitions that you don't want to boot) but I received an "error in
    building the partition list on disk #2" when I tried pqboot32.exe.

    In summary, both OS were referenced in the boot.ini but the OS on the second
    HD wouldn't boot.

    We tell people

    " do not let new-XP see the old-XP partition the first time it boots.
    If new-XP sees old-XP, it won't reuse the original drive letter when it
    assigns a drive letter to itself. (Once XP-2 has booted and reallocated new
    drive letters, the old-XP partition can be reintroduced into the system, if

    Well, how do beginners seem to do this so easily.
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006
  5. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    I know what I was doing wrong. I was testing, not thinking.

    I was doing the partition copy from Master to Slave. That's OK. To really
    foul things up I should then have made the new HD "Master" and the old HD
    "Slave". Then tried to boot from the Master with the old HD still attached.
    That's supposed to cause trouble.
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006

  6. Yes, PM's cleverness can be confusing if you assume that
    it's producing an exact clone for you. I once tried PM for cloning
    (since I got it along with PowerQuest's Drive Image for free), but
    it seemed a bit clumsy to me, so I adopted Casper XP.

    There's a quick fix for that - stop using PQBoot! The boot manager
    in Windows XP is quite sufficient to multi-boot WinNT, Win2K, and
    WinXP, and it's used by a larger user group.

    Well, that advice is scrambled. The first line applies to making clones
    as far as I know. As for drive letter assignment for actual installations
    of an OS, letting the installer see only one un-named partition (or
    unallocated space on a HD) will assure that the installed OS calls
    its own partition "C:" when it runs. The reason beginners make a clone
    so easily is that they usually remove the original HD after they've made
    the clone because they're under the mistaken impression that the
    clone's HD has to be put on the same cable position and have the same
    jumpering as the original HD. Later, they re-format the "parent's" partition
    and use it for data storage. If the connection of the original HD for the
    re-format step occurs when the clone is booted for the 1st time, there *may*
    be the "1st boot-up problem" generated, but I've never checked for it.

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006
  7. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    .. If the connection of the original HD for the
    That has been my entire purpose here, but I got the steps wrong. I'll do it
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006
  8. S.Lewis

    S.Lewis Guest


    Cloned D: with "Full upgrade" option in DriveWizard. Never disconnected any
    drives. Screen shot of disk management, XP Home:

    S.Lewis, Feb 9, 2006
  9. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    Cloned D: with "Full upgrade" option in DriveWizard. Never disconnected
    As far as I can see cloning to the same HD is different from cloning to a
    second HD. I have no problem booting from either OS if they are on the same
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006
  10. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    Sorry Stew, I misunderstood your jpg.
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006

  11. Remove Disk 0, Stew, and then boot up the OS on Disk 1
    and check all your My Document files on Disk 1. You may find
    that some are missing. Also check all your saved posting/emails
    in Outlook Express. Some of those might be missing. Also
    start up each of your Program Files. Some of *those* might be
    missing. Those and other random "anomalies" seem to occur
    when you start a clone for the 1st time with the "parent" OS's
    partition still visible to it. If you remove the "parent" before
    starting the clone for its 1st time, these things don't happen.

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006

  12. Be careful about cloning to a partition on the same HD.
    That is because it's difficult to "hide" the "parent" OS
    when you start the clone for the 1st time. If you should
    subsequently re-format the "parent" OS's partition, you
    may find that random files that you thought were present
    in the clone OS's partition are gone.

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006
  13. S.Lewis

    Markeau Guest

    Ok so Casper looks good. But, it does not have the option to save an
    image file to a folder on, for example, an external drive used to
    store running backups. Drive Image does this, but as I said I've had
    similar problems as those posted in this thread. Is there another
    disk imaging tool (besides ghost) that will do this?
    Markeau, Feb 9, 2006
  14. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    I'm not a "cloner" Tim. This exercise is just for fun. I use images for
    backup, not clones.
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006
  15. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    I just did this but the new HD booted normally. I was expecting it to fail.
    That's what the wisdom advises us.
    Tim, you mentioned that you haven't done this yet. If you do, let me know if
    your new HD boots or stops at the Welcome screen as I was expecting.

    As far as software for cloning is concerned, Ghost 9 and Partition Magic
    each took 4 minutes to write the clone. CasperXP took 24 minutes. For a
    beginner, I'd suggest Partition Magic from the boot CD. It only involves 5
    mouse clicks and PM prompts you for the correct choice.

    Over the last day I've cloned 10 to 15 times (HD to HD). I've tried to make
    it fail but all clones booted. I wish I could have been more help to those
    in trouble.
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006

  16. What evidence are you expecting to see to signal "failure"?
    As I've pointed out, the clone boots up fine and life seems good.
    Then, when you take the "parent" away, life still seems good.
    But then, maybe months later, you notice some files missing
    although their names still appear in their folder. To check
    *that* out, you have to go through ALL FILES in the My Documents
    folder and see if you can open them and that they're all still there.
    Then you have to do the same with Local Folders in Outlook
    Express. Then you have to try executing all the programs in
    Program Files. Have you done all that?

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006

  17. It probably has to do with not copying the MBR or setting the partition
    "active" - both done explicitly by checking an option in Ghost. Most
    people are also vague on the syntax of boot.ini and the boot procedure
    as well, so they don't know which boot files are in control. The problem
    is that they're not reporting what they're not doing because they don't
    know what is pertinent.

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006

  18. An image is not a clone. Caxper XP just clones. A good
    imaging utility is Acronis's True Image. It makes an image file
    which you can put on various removable media, and to create
    a bootable OS from that, you have to do a "restore" - which is
    in effect the reverse of "imaging". The advantage is that the
    image file can be compressed and that it can reside on cheap
    archival media - CDs and DVDs - or on an external USB drive.
    The downside is the time to do the "restore".

    Timothy Daniels, Feb 9, 2006
  19. S.Lewis

    Brian K Guest

    I was looking for failure to boot of the new HD when connected as Master and
    the old HD connected as Slave.

    a.. do not let new-XP see the old-XP partition the first time it boots. "
    Brian K, Feb 9, 2006
  20. S.Lewis

    S.Lewis Guest

    I'll run BeyondCompare on them when I have a chance. As I said, I've been
    using this method for a long time. Since I frequently live in both OE and
    my documents folders, I can report no loss at this point.

    BC would show with certainty.

    At this point, Tim, you seem convinced that I don't have a solution. I'm
    convinced otherwise through an extended use of the program method.

    Do as you wish. I'm planning to do the same.

    S.Lewis, Feb 9, 2006
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