I still want to build a new system

Discussion in 'Asus' started by Bill Anderson, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. And I figure I ought to go with a socket 2011 board, the Asus P9X79,
    probably. But I just can't bring myself to go forward. The problem
    isn't cost -- it's where to put the cooling fan for an i7 processor.
    Those i7 cooling fans look like NASA wind tunnels, and they stand so
    high off the processor they'd never fit in my very nice Lian Li
    horizontal case. And yes, I want a horizontal case. I'd buy a new one
    if I could find one tall enough to accommodate one of the cooling fans,
    but the only cases I've found like that are intended for multimedia
    applications and will accommodate only mini ATX boards.

    My current Lian Li case can't accommodate 120mm (actually larger, all
    considered) liquid cool fans around its sides. The best it can do is
    80mm fans. Still, it has a 140mm panel in the lid that I could remove
    and replace with a fan cover and then *hang* a liquid cooling apparatus
    directly over the processor on the motherboard, but I just can't see
    myself carefully dealing with wires and tubes and fan and radiator and
    whatnot every time I want to pop the lid.

    I'm currently running an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo with a 2400 MHz Core 2 Quad
    Intel processor and 4 gigs of DDR2 memory. With my new SSD, it actually
    does everything I want very nicely except for video processing.
    Premiere CS6 works OK until I try to edit large (one hour or so) High
    Def video clips, at which point it will hang and I wait and wait and
    wait while the hard drives run, trying to catch up. Maybe all I need is
    more memory, as 4 gigs seem to be the minimum for Premiere CS6. But I
    also want to render video faster, and I have read that what I really
    need is to ditch my ATI video card and get a new nVidia with CUDA
    capability -- a card that Premiere can use to offload some of the
    processing requirements for rendering. Well, that's what I think I
    understand, anyway.

    So what's the deal with cooling an i7 quad core? Is there no compact
    solution? Or might my current LGA 775 system be beefed up to make my
    Premiere problems go away?
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 5, 2012
    #1
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  2. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    They make a slightly lower profile cooler. The first thing I'd
    do with this, is replace the fan with a thicker one, for better
    air movement (at the risk of making the overall height, taller).

    "Scythe SCBSK-2100 120mm Sleeve BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B CPU Cooler"

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185174

    Danger with the low profile cooler, is bumping into the RAM slots
    and being unable to move RAM around after the cooler is in place.
    One person, managed to damage a fastener on that product - there's
    a lot of variation in the quality of screws and fasteners on coolers.
    Some brands are excellent on screws, others, not so much.

    Personally, I'd let the project, dictate the computer case used.
    If I was going to spend that kind of money on the project, I'd
    shop for a different (wider) case, so I could get inside the case
    easier at a later date. For example, on my current box, I can
    reach all the RAM sockets with ease, in case some reconfiguration
    is needed while testing.

    If you wanted really low profile coolers, then I'd go to a vendor
    selling parts for a server version of LGA2011 socket. There would
    likely be coolers designed for rack mounted server stuff, that
    would be lower than that one. But, at the price of extreme noise
    (as the fan is probably cranked to the max). They don't care about
    the noise level, in a server room.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 5, 2012
    #2
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  3. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    At the time I wrote that, I couldn't remember the name of the company
    making the server coolers. And I just noticed in this article,
    they're using a "Dynatron R17". Dynatron is a company that makes
    server coolers.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6241/building-the-2012-anandtech-smb-soho-nas-testbed/2

    It's relatively cheap, and 32 dBa at 100% CPU. Fan is 92mm and
    side mounted. (Side mounted, means you don't get any downward cooling
    air for the motherboard surface.)

    http://www.amazon.com/Dynatron-R17-.../B005NBUDYO/ref=de_a_smtd/183-6142996-5482769

    It's described as "110mm" in height.

    http://www.dynatron-corp.com/en/product_detail_1.aspx?cv=&id=239&in=0

    A user here described it as "It cooled the processor just enough to
    be able to run at stock settings (I7 3930k)". Considering the price
    is $33, that's not bad. Just a question of whether 110mm is an
    issue or not.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114120

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 7, 2012
    #3
  4. Bill Anderson

    Bill Guest

    You might check Corsair for a case, they have some nice ones but a bit
    expensive, I using one now with their Liquid Cooler and running an 8
    core AMD processor and a ASUS Motherboard, after 8 months now no
    problems and runs cool.
    Bill
     
    Bill, Sep 8, 2012
    #4
  5. Sorry I've taken a few days to respond, Paul, but I've been out of town.

    Hooray! I do believe you've found the fan I'm looking for. Some
    comments say it's a bit loud, but that's the only concern I have. The
    fan and heat sink certainly would certainly appear to be the size I'm
    looking for. I have, conservatively, about 120mm of clearance from
    processor to the top of my case, and this thing appears to be only 92mm
    tall -- plus, the pictures seem to show the footprint doesn't extend
    beyond the four lockdown screws, so it shouldn't interfere with sticks
    of memory. I even found a video from Asus showing how it works with the
    MBo I'm planning to buy. Finally, a fan that looks perfect. No need to
    do carpentry work on my computer cabinet to make a tower case fit.
    Looks like I can stick with my horizontal Lian Li case. Thanks!

    Just for the record, here's what I'm planning to buy. See any problems?
    Any advice regarding the memory question?

    Motherboard: Asus P9X79 $319.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131800

    Processor: Intel Core i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E $299.99 ($20 off if I buy
    today)
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115229

    Memory: Crucial 32GB kit (8GBx4) $383.99
    http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=P9X79&Cat=RAM
    Possible Memory Alternative:
    CORSAIR XMS 32GB (4 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM $167.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233279
    (Corsair is less than half the price of the Crucial, but I’ve always
    used Crucial and I do like their customer service. And, the timings for
    Corsair are 11-11-11-30, where for Crucial they’re 9-9-9-24, which
    apparently makes for faster memory performance from Crucial. Still,
    we’re talking a difference of over $200. Are the Crucial sticks I’ve
    chosen really worth the higher price tag?)

    Video Card: PNY VCQ2000-PB Quadro 2000 $399
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133353
    Both nVidia and Adobe say this works well with Premiere Pro CS6.

    Cooling Fan: Dynatron R17 $32.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114120&Tpk=dynatron r17
    Here’s a video from Asus showing how it’s installed in the P9X79 mbo:


    Faxmodem: U.S. Robotics USR5638 V.92 Faxmodem 56Kbps PCI Express
    $26.99 (Wanted to use old PCI faxmodem but looks like the P9X79 has only
    PCIe slots.)
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825104013

    Total: $1,464 plus shipping, or with Corsair memory, $1,248 plus shipping.

    Current components I’ll re-use:

    Power Supply: PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610
    http://www.pcpower.com/power-supply/silencer-610-eps12v.html
    Boot HD: Samsung 256 Gb SSD
    Four large-capacity SATA HDDs
    Hauppauge Colossus HD video capture card
    Panasonic Blu-Ray/DVD/CD optical drive/burner

    Thanks as always for your help!
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 12, 2012
    #5
  6. Thanks, Bill. Sorry to take so long getting back. Looks like Paul has
    found me a cooling fan that'll fit in the case I'm using now! The guy
    is a genius. I've been looking for months. I'm almost ready now to
    give Newegg all my money.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 12, 2012
    #6
  7. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    Your build is a bit of a mixed bag.

    The motherboard has a few issues, based on the Newegg reviews.
    As long as I thought there'd be no problem returning it,
    I wouldn't be too worried.

    You're putting a quad core processor in the board. You can get
    a quad core in other platforms besides LGA2011. (I.e. Save
    money on motherboard, pay ballpark the same for CPU, get
    less L3 on the processor perhaps.)

    It's possible your 4x8GB memory kit, would work in that other
    motherboard as well. You have to be careful, when shopping, to
    see whether the processor is rated for 8GB modules or not. For
    example, older LGA1366 documentation, might not mention 8GB
    modules specifically.

    So I'd need to understand what you find attractive about LGA2011.
    Maybe it's the ability to double the memory later ? If I was
    building up an LGA2011, I'd try to stick a hex core in it, as
    that makes the platform more attractive. More expensive as well
    though. This is just my personal opinion. I see no point in
    pretending you'd upgrade later to a hex core, because that's
    not going to happen (after paying for the quad, you're unlikely
    to fork out $600 for another one). Some other platform would
    come along by then perhaps.

    Your system has no ECC on the memory. We have 32GB, but we can't
    detect an error in that memory. That always makes me nervous about
    large memory kits, is whether there would be an ability to detect
    when there's a problem.

    The memory subsystem has a higher theoretical bandwidth, but
    it's not clear with these systems, how much overall benefit
    you get over a system with dual channel memory. Back when
    LGA1366 came out (triple channel), the thing still did pretty
    well even when run in dual channel mode.

    The block diagram for LGA2011 and X79 is here.

    http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/X79-Chipset1.png

    The PCI Express ports (for video cards) are on the CPU. Which means
    there's the potential for relatively high bandwidth between memory and
    PCI Express. The Northbridge is inside the CPU, while the Southbridge
    is the PCH thing. The characteristics of the PCI Express ports, are
    determined by the CPU, which is why you can get PCI Express 3.0 out
    of the thing, after the fact. As long as the routing on the board is
    ready for 3.0, the clock distribution isn't buggered, all it might take
    is a BIOS update (if the feature was initially missing).

    It's not clear to me, whether any LGA2011 processors (yet) are PCI
    Express 3.0 ? I would have expected to see that in the ark.intel.com
    table, if it was an available feature. In any case, PCI Express 3.0
    might not be all that necessary. It would take a $500 gamer card,
    before you could even measure the difference.

    The PCH has USB2 native, no USB3. External chips are used to add USB3.
    Intel also makes newer chipsets, with USB3 on the chipset. The "DMI"
    interface, while listed as "20Gb/sec", I think that includes both
    directions, so it's 10Gb/sec in one direction. 8Gb/sec or 1GB/sec
    in one direction after decoding (8B10B code). It means any stuff hosted
    off X79, has an aggregate 1GB/sec limit on transfer rate. You have to
    watch Intel like a hawk, when checking these diagrams, to figure
    out what you're actually getting. For example, I'd have to
    download the X79 datasheet and skim read the damn thing, to verify the
    "20Gb/sec" and how to interpret it.

    http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/X79-Chipset1.png

    The capabilities of the Quadro 2000 are shown here. Not an FP64
    monster. And based on listed power consumption, it's a lower end
    card. So basically you're paying for a name and the software
    certification. If the card is only for video editing, personally,
    I'd do more research to determine what other cost effective
    options are available.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/3961/nvidia-launches-quadro-2000-600

    It would not be exactly like this desktop video card, as I can't
    match the "GF106" GPU number to anything else. But this card is
    192/16 (shader/rop) on functional blocks. And the FP64 ratio may
    not be far off what is available on a card like this either.
    A GTS 450 is in the $100 range. So in rough round numbers, you're
    paying $300 for software certification. If you were doing CAD
    with the card, it might be worth it. If attempting to speed up
    movie editing, I'd do the extra research to find other cards
    that could do the job.

    http://www.gpureview.com/GeForce-GTS-450-card-634.html

    So at the moment, it looks like you're buying the platform,
    for the ability to insert 64GB of memory at some point.
    You're getting quad channel. And to see if that's all that
    it's cracked up to be, I'd need to track down some benchmarks
    for LGA2011, where they try various memory configurations.
    (Compare dual channel to quad channel operation.)

    *******

    On the memory, look through the Newegg listing again. For
    a price between the two extremes you noted, you can get
    DDR3-1600 CAS9. So you can get decent performance, at a
    decent price.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...e&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=147&AdvancedSearch=1

    *******

    This is a strawman proposal. Just to see how close I could
    come with an alternate solution.

    I can get almost as much performance (100MHz less) while
    saving about $200 on the motherboard.

    Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core
    Intel HD Graphics 4000 BX80637I73770K $330

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116501

    The platform supports QuickSync, as long as the motherboard has
    graphics connectors. (QuickSync is for transcoding. May not help
    if just doing output render in Premiere.)

    http://ark.intel.com/products/65523/Intel-Core-i7-3770K-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-3_90-GHz

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video

    You can pair that with a Z75 or Z77 motherboard. USB3 is integrated
    in the PCH Southbridge (4 ports).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_1155

    The motherboards are a bit lower in price. This one is $134,
    but others are as low as $99. The graphics connectors on
    the back, are for when you want to play with QuickSync while
    transcoding. This is compared to the $320 for the LGA2011 motherboard.

    ASRock Z77 Extreme4 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157293

    That gives you almost as much performance, and the ability to use
    32GB max of RAM.

    I don't want to spoil your fun. It wouldn't save that much
    money to go that way.

    The thing about "buying more CPU", is it's always there as
    your base performance level. All this "GPU crap", only works
    in particular cases. Whereas, when you buy a CPU, it's always
    there for you. Even when you're writing an email, all those
    cores are ready to go :)

    There's a list of supported GPUs for Mercury playback engine, here.

    http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/tech-specs.html

    http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/mercury-playback-engine.html

    "Real-time effects with GPU acceleration

    Take advantage of the ability of Adobe Premiere Pro CS6, which
    requires a 64-bit operating system, to work hand in hand with
    NVIDIA CUDA technology... The Mercury Playback Engine uses
    NVIDIA GPU cards to provide a GPU-accelerated 32-bit color pipeline,
    and most popular effects have been rewritten to run on it — for
    example, effects like color correction, the Ultra keyer, and
    motion control all run in real time.

    ...

    Compared with CPU-only rendering using a quad-core Intel i7 930
    processor running at 2.8GHz, installing an entry-level NVIDIA Quadro 2000
    improves performance by more than six times. A Quadro 5000 yields a
    better than eight times performance boost
    "

    Pretty weird. You'd think with the "extra iron", there'd be more of
    a boost. Almost seems like a pretty weak video card, gives you
    pretty good boost (for whatever artificial benchmark scenario
    they concocted). (I've seen mention of perhaps an artificial
    limit on layers the cards can accelerate ? Like Adobe doing it
    for Nvidia's benefit. Should be fun tracking down the truth.)

    You could try datamining here. Even what seem like relatively
    weak cards, seem to see a gain with "MPE on". So it's not clear
    how higher end cards help. It's almost like not all the cores
    are getting used. It's also possible these benchmarks aren't
    "demanding" enough, to show the hardware in a good light.

    http://ppbm5.com/DB-PPBM5-2.php

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 13, 2012
    #7
  8. Wow, Paul, what fantastic knowledgeable advice! I am grateful as always.

    You asked why I am set on a socket 2011 board. Well, maybe I'm blinded
    by latest and greatest syndrome, but the Asus P9X79 seems to be a board
    that won't go obsolete anytime soon. Now I did look at Z77 boards as you
    suggested, and I found some that would work, but something else you
    suggested brought me back to the P9X79. You mentioned that if you were
    going that route you'd get a hex core processor. Well, of course! Why not?

    As for memory, thanks for the link. The Corsair you suggested is
    comparable to what I was looking at with Crucial. Still, the memory at
    your link seems not to be ECC either. So I dunno. The price is
    certainly better than Crucial, that's for sure.

    I've also found a less expensive nVidia card that's on the list of Adobe
    Premiere CS6 recommended cards.

    So, taking your advice to heart -- or at least a lot of it -- see if you
    think these components will give me an even better setup than I'd
    planned, and even for a little less money:

    Motherboard: Asus P9X79 $319.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131800

    Processor: Intel Core i7-3930K Sandy Bridge-E: $569.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116492

    Memory: Corsair: $199.99 (Better timings but still not ECC)
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233303

    Video Card: EVGA 012-P3-1570-AR GeForce GTX 570 $259.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130593

    Cooling Fan: Dynatron R17 $32.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114120&Tpk=dynatron r17

    Faxmodem: U.S. Robotics USR5638 V.92 Faxmodem 56Kbps PCI Express
    $26.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825104013

    Total: $1,410 plus shipping. (The previous total was $1,464.)

    So...what do you think? I don't mind spending that much money, but I do
    mind spending it foolishly. I want a great system, and if this isn't
    one please be frank. Thanks.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 13, 2012
    #8
  9. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    The LGA2011 part, implies the user wants to build a high end system.
    A system where you wouldn't have regrets later like "if I'd only
    spent this much more, my system wouldn't suck so bad". A hex core
    is overkill for writing emails, and that's not why you're buying it.
    A machine like the one you've constructed above, is because
    "time is money" to you. You want the things you do with the
    computer, to finish in a reasonable time. For example, for
    Photoshop, working with relatively ordinary photo input, such
    a system is probably "too much iron", and couldn't justify the
    money spent. I've seen photographers spend $5000 on a system,
    because someone told them to, and precious little of that money
    is actually helping them.

    If you're going to regularly work on video, then I would think
    the system would be a better match. If you're a casual video editor
    (only work on one wedding recording per year), perhaps you could
    afford to wait 24 hours for some step in the edit to finish. But
    if you're regularly editing video, like every day, then the hex
    core thing might make more sense.

    And if you use a mix of different softwares, and some of them
    aren't GPU accelerated, the hex core is your baseline source
    of performance. So the hex core is also planning for some
    other, unknown software purchase.

    The GTX 570 draws 20.9 watts in the desktop. And draws around 234.5 watts
    when gaming. I would expect it would switch to 3D clocks, when the
    Mercury Playback Engine is working. You'll need both power
    and cooling sufficient for that, if and when it switches
    to the 234 watt condition. The card has two PCI Express power
    connectors on it (for that class of card), so you'll have to
    do the math with respect to the power supply (make sure it
    has enough 12V amps, for both the video card and processor load).

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/geforce-gtx-570_4.html#sect0

    I can't say whether the GTX 570 is the perfect choice with respect
    to the Mercury Playback Engine. Or whether Adobe has placed any
    limits on what it can help with. If you have other software
    that uses CUDA, you might get some benefit from it (like say,
    some other transcoding or rendering software). It might be
    overkill today, for what MPE can do, for all I know.

    *******

    The thing about the ECC, is Intel is stingy on support for ECC.
    The server platforms, always have it in some form. On desktops,
    it's harder to find. There is no ECC support on the desktop
    side of LGA2011. But there are LGA2011 Xeon server motherboards,
    which would have ECC lanes on the memory interface. I think that
    means the ECC lanes are planned for and are part of the 2011 I/O
    and power pads. But Intel doesn't bother to enable that stuff
    for the desktop platform.

    ECC can exact a bit of a performance penalty, as the system probably
    needs a "precise" error model. And at the speeds these things run
    now, you might discover an ECC error, sometime after the data
    has been consumed by the CPU. I don't know to what extent having
    ECC would compromise system performance, but on server platforms,
    no IT people would want to run without ECC, for fear of having
    undetected faults.

    I keep reading about "someday, the error rate of denser memory
    will go up in a significant way". And we're relying on the
    judgment of Intel, that this won't be the case today.

    AMD treats the issue differently, in that their architecture
    choices tend to be across both desktop and server. AMD is more
    likely to support ECC when you need it. AMD uses product
    differentiation (coherent Hypertransport connections), to
    ensure their server processor purchasers, pay a premium for
    the processors that allow building big servers. But for things
    like ECC, AMD doesn't use that as a means to force you into
    buying server components. Of course, nothing AMD has, will
    touch the 3930K. Even if you used a G34 processor with
    "16 cores", it's still not as fast. So while AMD does have
    a more useful feature mix, they're not really in the running
    for this job.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 13, 2012
    #9
  10. Actually there's more to my video editing problems than just lengthy
    rendering times. Premiere CS6 Pro just barely operates on my current
    system. (Asus P5Q Pro Turbo with Core2 Quad 2400 MHz and four gigs of
    DDR2 RAM.) I can edit with it, but only barely. When I move the slider
    through a one-hour HD video it will hang and I'll wait and wait and wait
    while the hard drive runs until finally I gain control again. Very
    annoying and a big part of the reason I want to upgrade.

    I came awfully close to hitting the purchase button on Newegg late last
    night, using the shopping list above, but decided to sleep on it. I'm
    sure glad I did.

    In the light of morning I saw I'd made a really stupid mistake: I wasn't
    buying the motherboard I thought I was buying. I wanted a plain Asus
    P9X79, but I'd been looking at a P9X79 Pro without ever noticing that
    little Pro word. Argh. The plain board has a couple of things I wanted
    which the Pro doesn't have: A PS2 port for my favorite old PS2 keyboard
    with which I can boot by pressing the spacebar, and one plain old PCI
    slot where I really want to put my old faxmodem. And it costs less, at
    $259.

    Now from the first computer I ever built, like 20 years ago or so, I've
    always used Asus motherboards. Asus is just a name I trust; right or
    wrong, I think they're the best. But now that I was doing even more
    reading on the internet about the P9X79, I decided to see if anybody had
    ever done a comparison with other boards. And I found this at Tom's
    Hardware, where an Intel board performed well – not best in all areas,
    but well -- and it won best performance per dollar in a comparison
    review with the P9X79 and others:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/x79-extreme4-dx79to-p9x79-benchmark,3138.html

    So then I did some reading about the Intel DX79TO motherboard:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121552

    Not only is the Intel board cheaper at $209.99, but more important, the
    layout of PCIe slots works better for me. The GTX570 video card is
    “double-wide” and will have to cover a slot. I must have access to two
    small PCIe x1 slots, so using the GTX570 with the P9X79 would require me
    to hide the board’s only plain old PCI slot, which I really would like
    to use. The Intel board has three little PCIe slots, so I can cover one
    with no problem. The only thing I want that it doesn't have is a PS2
    port. Guess I'll have to dig my USB keyboard out of the closet.

    I did go back and look at nVidia Quadro cards again, because some of the
    lower-end ones are only single-wide, which means I wouldn't have to
    cover a PCIe slot. But they cost more than the GTX line and every
    review I read said they're not as fast and not worth the money. So
    GTX570 it is. Bye PCIe slot.

    I have begun to wonder whether my current power supply will be able to
    handle all the new components. This review seems to indicate that an
    entire “power hungry” i7 system using a GTX 570 pulls 369W under
    heaviest load. My power supply is PC Power and Cooling 610W. It does
    have the two required six-pin connectors for the video card.
    http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-570-review/8

    So is 610W enough? Looks like it is to me, but I'm no electrical
    engineer. Guess I'll find out. And I also sure hope my Lian Li case can
    keep all this cool. Guess I'll find about about that too.

    So now, here's what my shopping list looks like on Newegg, just waiting
    for me to screw up enough courage to hit "Purchase":

    Motherboard: Intel BOXDX79TO $209.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121552

    Processor: Intel Core i7-3930K Sandy Bridge-E: $569.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116492

    Memory: Corsair: $199.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233303

    Video Card: EVGA 012-P3-1570-AR GeForce GTX 570 $259.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130593

    Cooling Fan: Dynatron R17 $32.99
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114120&Tpk=dynatron r17

    Total: $1,279.93 INCLUDING shipping.

    Thoughts? Too tired of this to think about it anymore? I almost am.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 15, 2012
    #10
  11. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    For an Intel motherboard, I recommend looking at the BIOS side of things.
    Intel has some slight differences, in terms of BIOS operating modes.
    And that's always put me off a bit, because it isn't explained
    very well, why it's done that way. (Like, a switch to select a
    "maintenance" mode or something.)

    In terms of the name "Intel", Intel doesn't actually do the manufacturing.
    The motherboards are contract manufactured to Intel specifications. I think
    one year, Asus made them, and another year, perhaps Foxconn. So Intel
    shops around, looks at dropout rate or whatever, and picks a company to
    make them. Any of the companies involved, is capable of designing them,
    whether it's Intel Folsom, or engineers in Taiwan.

    Like any motherboard brand, you check the reviews to see what other
    users think of them. Any company can have a bad day, and even Asus
    has had boards they'd rather not be reminded about. (Boards that
    were definitely broken, and they didn't treat their users right,
    and made the users "eat it".)

    On the Intel, you'd be checking for storage options, to see if you
    get a nice mix there. The Southbridge would give you six SATA standard.
    But some companies will throw in a floppy port, IDE port, and even
    some extra SATA or ESATA ports.

    At that price point, I'd also be checking for a GbE Ethernet port, just
    in case someone gets the idea to put a 10/100BT port there instead.

    Since LGA2011 Southbridge doesn't have USB3, you know you're vetting
    third party USB3 brands as well. There are perhaps five brands of USB3 now.
    You may find Etron has a few driver problems. You'd check the history of
    the USB3 brand used, and whether anyone has noticed problems or not.

    *******

    Your processor is 130W, and (130W/0.9eff)/12V = 12 amps. The
    video card is about 19.4 amps. A disk drive is 0.6A. An optical
    drive says 1.5A on the label (1.0A measured). Fans might be 0.5A
    for the system (depending on how "fan crazy" you are). So we're
    up to about 34A so far. The supply is rated at around 12V @ 49A.
    So you have some margin there.

    Total power would be 12V * 34A + 50W (motherboard) + 5W (hard drive logic)
    + 7.5W (optical drive logic) + 10W (USB power from 5VSB) or a total of
    around 480.5 watts. That's out of 610W max. Still looks do-able. The
    thing is, even though the two subsystems have "peak" values, you
    don't necessarily hit peak on both at the same time. The 50W for
    motherboard, is to handle chipset, and in the LGA2011 case, the
    chipset is puny (perhaps 10W max). RAM is probably less than 2W per
    stick, so even with four sticks, while I award 50W for motherboard+RAM,
    this system is probably using 18W. So my 486.5W figure will be
    on the high side a bit.

    As long as the power supply appears "healthy", and hasn't shown signs
    it's getting tired, I'd give it a shot. And chances are, it has
    decent protection as well. You might go back and read customer
    reviews on your 610W model, just to see whether there was any component
    damage on a failure. It's rated to give 610W at 40C, so it should be
    a conservative rating anyway. There are reviews around, on sites like
    JonnyGuru, where they use a proper load box to test these things, and you
    can check that out to get a feeling for how close to 610W it actually is.

    *******

    Looking at the ports on the Intel board, the audio is only a "three stack".
    I hope that thing you're plugging in the PCI slot, is an old sound card.
    For an LGA2011 board, you'd think they'd throw in a "six stack" (7.1 with
    separate input jacks), since there is room for it.

    You should also be reading the Newegg reviews for that DX79TO.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 16, 2012
    #11
  12. OK, I looked and I thought and I figured I'll be better off with good
    old Asus, even though the reviews of the P9X79 don't look a lot better
    than the reviews of the Intel. Anyway, it's done. But not without a
    hitch. Would you believe that in all my delaying, Newegg sold out of
    the video card? Amazon had it though, for basically the same price, so
    I've ordered it from Amazon and the rest from Newegg. Hope I'll be up
    and running by the end of next week. Thanks, Paul, for all your help.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 16, 2012
    #12
  13. Bill Anderson

    geoff Guest

    I had the same issue with Adobe Premiere using an AMD quad-core black
    edition CPU. Premiere made my computer look like an 8080 cpu.

    My theory is Premiere is optimized for Intel because youtube has videos of
    neat tricks done with Adobe, and this guy's computer is fast but his CPU is
    from several years ago.

    Some folks, with fast hardware are unable to run Premiere because of
    hardware conflicts with Adobe. Given all the issues Premiere has, I decided
    to drop it.
     
    geoff, Sep 16, 2012
    #13
  14. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    You'd try to track down whether the program has any special requirements.
    The installer should warn you, if there is a mismatch.

    http://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/kb/error-processor-support-sse2-instruction.html

    "The SSE2 (Streaming SIMD Extensions 2) instruction set is included with
    Intel Pentium 4 and later processors, and with AMD Athlon 64 and Opteron
    and later processors."

    At least in that case, it sounds like they were supporting both.

    While in the past, companies used the "Intel compiler" and ended up with
    code which ran faster on Intel platforms, a "total stall out" could have
    something to do with process scheduling. I've witnessed something weird
    on Windows 8 recently, that I haven't gotten to the bottom of, where a process
    running at "Normal" priority seems to stall, until I go into Task Manager
    and raise it to "Above Normal" and then it works normally. *Something*
    is installed on that C:, which is fouling up how processes get scheduled.
    (It's not like another process is actually using the CPU. It's idle.)
    And the software runs abnormally slow (compared to running the same
    software on WinXP or Win2K).

    There are certainly other video editor programs, and probably cheaper
    as well.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 16, 2012
    #14
  15. All the parts arrived today around 1:00 pm. It's now around 8:00 pm and
    I'm up and running, installing apps, apps and more apps. Just installed
    Thunderbird, so I'm checking my ability to post to newsgroups.

    Usually on a build I go easy, install just the minimum hardware and
    check things out before I plug everything in. This time I just jumped
    right in and installed everything before powering up -- and everything
    is working perfectly! At least I think so. If something's wrong, I
    haven't found it yet.

    Thanks to Paul for locating a short socket 2011 cooling fan. It seems
    to be working great. And I'm pleased with the Asus P9X79 board. The
    BIOS screen leaves me speechless...I've never seen anything like it.

    I did discover that Win7 cares where I plug in my mouse. I had it
    plugged into a USB 3 port and everything was working fine -- my fancy
    new BIOS screen was happy with the mouse -- but when Win7 began to load
    I had no mouse support. Switched to a USB 2 port and all was well.

    I'm still wondering why I always get the Asus boot screen twice at
    startup. It gives me the usual instruction about hitting Delete to
    enter BIOS and then it checks the optical drive for a disk, and then I
    get the boot screen again with the DELETE/BIOS instruction again, and
    then it checks the optical drive again -- with a different font! These
    are two different operations. When I tried to load Win7 using the first
    optical drive check it didn't work -- just appeared to load a few
    drivers and then failed. But when I waited for the second opportunity,
    Win7 loaded lots of drivers and it did work.

    My P5Q Pro Turbo board with Core 2 Quad was fast, but I am really not
    imagining things when I perceive this new setup is faster. Later
    tonight I'll get around to Adobe Premiere and the rest, and then I'll
    know whether all this effort (and cash) have been worth it.

    But golly things seem to be going great so far.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 20, 2012
    #15
  16. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    I took a look around, but didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

    About the only thing I could see, is the "Full Screen Logo" setting,
    something I disable as my first BIOS change. That is so I can see as much
    of the POST sequence as possible.

    I also don't see any startup options like Splashtop on that board,
    so I don't think it's some alternate environment attempting to start.

    From power up, my current system starts twice. The power comes on for
    one second, power goes off again, power comes on and POST starts. I could
    probably fix that with a BIOS update, but I just can't be bothered.
    It's not really hurting anything. And that doesn't happen on a restart.
    Only on a "cold" start, just after power is applied via the rear
    switch on the computer. As long as +5VSB is maintained, it doesn't happen.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 20, 2012
    #16
  17. I've decided not to worry about the double appearance of the boot
    screen. The first one comes before the post beep, then the screen goes
    black for the beep, and then the boot screen comes back. Big deal.

    This system seems solid as a rock. Still, I am a bit concerned about
    the new graphic card's temperature. The case above the card is hot to
    the touch. But above the CPU the case is barely lukewarm -- perfectly
    normal. But back in that left corner...hmmmmm.

    Right now, with nothing going on but typing in Usenet, Aida64 says the
    MBO is 41 degrees C, the CPU is 44, the "CPU Package," whatever that is,
    is 49, and the six cores are fluctuating between 43 and 49. When I'm
    processing video the CPU may go up into the 60s, but the individual
    cores go up into the 80s sometimes. And the Nvidia control panel says
    the GPU is 71. I guess that's OK. I'm getting no red flag in the
    control panel.

    Whatever, the computer is performing great, with a noticeable new
    general peppiness over the P5Q Pro Turbo. And...Premiere is performing
    much much better. Maybe not perfectly during editing, but so much
    better than before. I can use it now, and I am pleased. Thanks, Paul,
    for all your advice.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 22, 2012
    #17
  18. Actually, I am becoming concerned about the CPU temps in my new build.
    Apparently the CPU shouldn't go above the mid 60s C, but look at what
    AIDA64's sensor is showing while I'm rendering video. This is with the
    cover on the case. With the cover off, the temps drop by just a few
    degrees.

    http://users.rcn.com/weanderson/images/CPUtemps.jpg

    Am I going to have to get a bigger case to accommodate a bigger CPU fan?

    By the way, I flashed BIOS last night and now the double boot screen
    issue has gone away. Not only that, but boot time has been cut at least
    in half. The new BIOS has a feature that lets me skip USB port boot
    activation for everything but mouse and keyboard devices. Now the boot
    screen just flies by. I have three seconds to press Delete if I want to
    go into BIOS.
     
    Bill Anderson, Sep 22, 2012
    #18
  19. Bill Anderson

    Paul Guest

    Bill Anderson wrote:

    Your values (90C,89C,87C,83C,84C,85C) suggest you're running
    thermally limited. The posters here feel it limits (throttles)
    around 90C or so.

    http://www.overclock.net/t/1178485/3930k-overheating-issue-stock-speeds

    http://www.overclock.net/t/1233805/temperatures-for-i7-3930k

    Cooling is a two stage process for an air cooler. Move CPU
    heat from CPU to case air. Move case air out into the room.

    If the computer case is too hot, then the CPU cooler
    can't transfer as much heat. All the temps in the case
    end up offset.

    Your case is 38C (motherboard temperature). If we assume the
    room temperature is 25C, that's delta of 13C. If you were to
    use more case fans, or improve the air temperatures around
    the CPU cooler, the temperature might come down a bit.

    Other than that, the CPU cooler may not be enough for
    the thermal load, and that's why you're near throttle
    temperature.

    The CPU has at least two levels of response to heat.
    The internal thermal diodes measure temperature with
    respect to a fixed temperature point. Let's pretend it's 90C
    (until I go look it up). If the silicon die was 89C, the
    digital readout reads "delta of 1C". The sensor isn't set
    up to give absolute temperature. It gives a relative
    temperature to Tjmax. When the delta measured drops to zero,
    now the silicon die is too hot. Throttling cuts in, and
    the percentage of CPU cycles allowed to be used drops.
    You lose performance (at least, compared to the
    clock speed at the moment). For example, if you overclocked
    to 4.4GHz, and throttling resulted in only 75% of the
    cycles being used, it would instead be like the CPU was
    at 3GHz or so.

    If the heatsink falls off completely, the throttling method
    cannot throttle enough to control thermals. The CPU temperature
    may shoot up by another 20C or so, before THERMTRIP cuts in,
    and the power is turned off on the PC.

    So there are two temperature points. The throttle temperature
    is the first point, and THERMTRIP is an additional offset
    above that point.

    Throttling can also be applied in software, if for example
    you wanted to control temperature more severely than the
    hardware does it.

    Those are the basic ideas, but I haven't been reading up
    on all the improvements LGA2011 has. I understand now,
    the VCore regulator may give some data about operation,
    like perhaps current flow, so there may be more monitoring
    data available than in older designs. But some of the
    same protection methods should still be in usage.

    The "throttle bit" is a status bit that indicates the
    CPU is being throttled. While temperature monitoring is one
    way to conclude you got to that point, observing the throttle
    bit is a way to see that the hardware has actually responded
    as well. In effect, it "calibrates" your thermal application.
    If you saw throttle asserted, just when one core hit 90C, then
    in future if you saw 90C from the same temperature monitoring
    facility, you'd know you were back at the throttle point again.
    The "RMClock" utility monitors the throttle bit, but I don't
    know if RMClock has been updated for things like LGA2011 or not.

    http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/cpu/intel-thermal-features-core2.html

    I tried looking through these.

    http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/datasheet/core-i7-lga-2011-datasheet-vol-1.pdf
    http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/datasheet/core-i7-lga-2011-datasheet-vol-2.pdf
    http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/specification-update/core-i7-lga-2011-specification-update.pdf
    http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/guide/core-i7-lga-2011-guide.pdf

    Apparently the Tjmax is stored in a register on the processor,
    so to get the "90C" limit for die temperature, it can be
    read out. I don't know if that was true on earlier Core2
    processors.

    A good way to judge coolers, before you buy them, is to
    get an estimate of their theta_R or thermal resistance. Only
    a few companies do that, and even the ones that did, haven't
    continued to do so. Without theta_R, all we're left with is
    some jokey "can handle a 150W processor" type description.

    It reminds me of the labeling on light bulbs. I bought a
    bulb at the store the other day, where instead of a
    color temperature (like 6500K), they used a text description
    of "crisp white light". Which, as you'd expect, was utter bullshit.
    The light was sad and yellow, but I don't expect to see "sad and yellow"
    on the tin :-( At least now, I have a new definition of "crisp".

    Paul
     
    Paul, Sep 22, 2012
    #19
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