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Is an U60 a U60 without a Elite 3Dm6 framebuffer ??

Discussion in 'Sun Hardware' started by Andrew Tyson, Aug 13, 2004.

  1. Andrew Tyson

    Andrew Tyson Guest


    Here's a new one for the NG - dispute resolution ...

    I recently sold an Ultra 60 on eBay minus the Elite 3D m6 framebuffer
    that originally came with the workstation. Please refer to the auction;


    The buyer claims that I have misrepresented the item by not including
    the framebuffer, even though the auction made no mention of a
    framebuffer being included. So I am wondering whether I should have
    explicitly said that there was no framebuffer included in the auction? I
    have offered to sell the buyer the said framebuffer for a nominal cost ...

    Thanks and regards,
    Andrew Tyson, Aug 13, 2004
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  2. Andrew Tyson

    Scott Howard Guest

    As far as I'm aware the U60 has never shipped without a video card, and
    thus your buyer is probably correct to expect it would come with one unless
    you stated otherwise.

    Scott Howard, Aug 13, 2004
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  3. Andrew Tyson

    Josh McKee Guest

    Since you specifically listed what was included with the system, and a
    framebuffer was not listed, I don't think that there was any
    misrepresentation on your part. The buyer assumed that the framebuffer
    was included. While not an unreasonable assumption it was,
    nonetheless, an assumption on their part.

    Josh McKee, Aug 13, 2004
  4. You are correct.

    Michael Dombrowski, Aug 14, 2004
  5. Andrew Tyson

    Frank Cusack Guest

    You listed exactly what was included. Should you also have listed
    that no A5000 array was included, no Windows XP CDs were included, and
    no ticket to the next Giants game was included?

    Frank Cusack, Aug 14, 2004
  6. Andrew Tyson

    Scott Howard Guest

    He didn't list that a motherboard was included either, but I'd expect
    the buyer would have had a valid reason to complain if one wasn't

    A framebuffer is included _by default_ in the Ultra 60. It's not an
    optional. You coulnd't buy an Ultra 60 without one, so you shouldn't
    be selling one without one unless it's mentioned specifically.

    If the machine was an E220, which doesn't ship by default with a
    framebuffer then it would be a completely different story.

    Scott Howard, Aug 14, 2004
  7. Andrew Tyson

    Tom Tobin Guest

    But... It's not going to resolve it, is it?
    Is your buyer likely to accept the balance of opinion in this ng?
    So you got it with a framebuffer?
    Did you expect it to come with, or without?
    But you expect your buyer to accept it without?
    You don't mention that it's *not* there.
    But the photo shows the decal saying it is there.
    There's no photo of the rear, which would have shown the
    absence of a graphics card.

    Your description says:
    'High performance desktop that is configured like a server'
    This might imply that there was no graphics, but I think you
    should have said so explicitly.
    Forget the 'nominal cost': ship the buyer the framebuffer FOC,
    with an apology.

    (Where does the balance have to be for you to accept it?;-)
    Tom Tobin, Aug 14, 2004
  8. Andrew Tyson

    Andrew Tyson Guest

    The issue that I have with this argument is that the U60 runs fine
    without a framebuffer.I installed the OS using a tip session on serial
    port A.

    The auction did not include a monitor, mouse ,
    or keyboard, and without all of these the framebuffer is useless. I did
    not explicitly exclude these items from the auction.

    Obviously a missing motherboard is a completely different matter.

    Andrew Tyson, Aug 14, 2004
  9. Certainly an -m6 was not the normal. The -m3 was standard I believe. I
    bought one with an -m3. Although I can see your point (you never said
    it had a framebuffer), I feel his is just as strong, if not more so.

    You would not expect to see an ad for a car

    Ford Pickup
    120,000 miles on clock
    2600 cc engine
    Colour red

    then to buy it and find it has no gearbox. It would have been sold new
    with a gearbox, so I think the seller should state if the car's
    gearbox has been removed.

    So I tend to agree slightly more with him than you, but I can see your
    point too. That's one problem I've not had on eBay - my biggest
    nightmare is people listing items on www.ebay.co.uk, selling them in
    UK pounds, giving a location of 'UK' when really they are in the USA.
    eBay choose not to take any action, despite agreeing its aginst their
    acceptable use policy. They don't seem to stop people doing it, even
    when I have bought it to their attention.

    David Kirkby

    David Kirkby.
    Dr. David Kirkby, Aug 14, 2004
  10. Andrew Tyson

    Andrew Tyson Guest

    I have ended up sending the buyer an Elite 3Dm6 free of charge.

    Thanks to all who gave me some input. The lesson that I have
    learnt is that when selling on eBay not leave anything ambiguous ...

    Thanks and regards,
    Andrew Tyson, Aug 17, 2004
  11. Andrew Tyson

    ulRik Guest

    You did The Right Thing(tm).

    ulRik, Aug 17, 2004
  12. Andrew Tyson

    Chris Morgan Guest

    ok, you lot, here's your next challenge. Sun accepts a trade-in of
    "any sun workstation" on the sun blade 1500 and 2500. If I were to
    send them my ultra 10/elite 3d-m3, would it be wrong of me to take
    that card out? After all, the ultra 10 came in several configurations,
    including some with no UPA graphics at all. Of course, my machine
    gives the game away a bit because it says "elite" on the bezel.

    If that would be wrong, then would it balance it out if I left in the
    additional 20GB hard disk I installed, which was far superior to the
    4gb original?

    For extra credit, can someone explain why there's no similar promotion
    on the w2100z, and also where did those Ebay auctions go? (Buy it now
    is not an auction by my definition). I was bidding yesterday when it
    was cancelled, no real explanation.

    Chris Morgan
    "Post posting of policy changes by the boss will result in
    real rule revisions that are irreversible"

    - anonymous correspondent
    Chris Morgan, Aug 17, 2004
  13. Le Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:00:52 -0400, Chris Morgan a écrit :
    They certainly don't care at all. After all the machine you'll send them
    will be trashed right away.
    Emmanuel Florac, Aug 17, 2004
  14. Andrew Tyson

    Andrew Tyson Guest

    I would have thought that U10 -> SB150 would have been a more logical
    migration path ... in any case your traded U10 is destined for landfill I
    suspect ;-)

    Makes you wonder whether they have a sliding scale - what kind of trade-in
    would they give me on an SPARCstation LX ?

    Andrew Tyson, Aug 18, 2004
  15. Andrew Tyson

    Chris Morgan Guest

    true, but I want two cpus and scsi. Actually, I probably want Opterons
    Really? I know that they sell refurbished U10s still (or at least they
    were auctioning them off on ebay quite recently)
    It seems to be 20% off for any Sun workstation, although perhaps I
    didn't find all the small print.

    Chris Morgan
    "Post posting of policy changes by the boss will result in
    real rule revisions that are irreversible"

    - anonymous correspondent
    Chris Morgan, Aug 18, 2004
  16. Andrew Tyson

    Andrew Tyson Guest

    i can understand that - give me a dual 400MHz Ultra 2 over an Ultra 10
    any day.
    No - just my opinion of the U10 in general (we had a lot of these die at

    Andrew Tyson, Aug 18, 2004
  17. Andrew Tyson

    Steven Hill Guest

    No - just my opinion of the U10 in general (we had a lot of these die at
    I know a lot of people knock the U5 and U10 for being the worst build
    quality sun out there... That may be true - but I have had E4500s give me
    problems too...

    I dunno, the low end sun workstations do have a place too. And it's not
    necessarily in the skip...

    Steven Hill

    "If they threw a little Dell server on your desk, you'd be about as close to
    delivering a reliable, scalable, usable Web service as if I threw a piston ring
    on your table and said drive to Chicago"
    - Scott McNealy
    Steven Hill, Aug 18, 2004
  18. Andrew Tyson

    Andrew Tyson Guest

    I know a lot of people knock the U5 and U10 for being the worst build
    We bought 3 440MHz U10s in 2000 - all three had terminal CPU failures.
    That's a 100% failure rate.

    We buy and deploy a lot of E3500s and U60s bought on the secondary market.
    I've had one U60 have a MOBO failure and of the 5 or 6 E3500s we've only
    had the FC-AL disks fail.

    Andrew Tyson, Aug 18, 2004
  19. Andrew Tyson

    Chris Morgan Guest

    Can't resist : Ultra 10 pros and cons

    The Ultra 10 case is standard PC style. Probably Sun's first machine
    assembled by a standard PC assembler sub-contractor.

    Adding a disk to an Ultra 10 is a recipe for cursing and skinned

    IDE performance sucks. Original equipment hard disks and cd-roms were
    cheap crap.

    On the other hand...

    ultra 10 takes UPA graphics cards and large cheap IDE disks.

    The later models have built-in pgx24 which is slow, but it was still
    very nice to get 24-bit color built-in in a cheap-ish machine. Only a
    few years before you'd have been adding, say, TurboGX-Plus graphics
    to a SPARC 5 for an eye-watering sum.

    The performance of the 2MB cache cpus was really quite good for the money
    (within the sparc universe). Having a 333Mhz U10 next to a 333Mhz
    Pentium II wasn't quite so embarrassing for the more expensive Sun
    machine as a Blade 150 vs. an entry-level PC these days.

    Ultra 10 takes lots of PCI cards.

    Ultra 10 takes a "real" Sun keyboard.

    It's still a "real" sparc workstation (OBP, built in 10/100 ethernet,
    net booting, 64-bit cpu etc etc).

    There was a time when an ultra 10 off ebay was THE sweet spot for a
    home enthusiasts machine on a tight budget. Trust me :)

    Chris Morgan, Aug 19, 2004
  20. Andrew Tyson

    Chris Morgan Guest

    That's got to be pretty unusual. I've had more problems with the disks
    (four failures in two machines over about 3-4 years), and of course
    disks fail in all types of machines with depressing regularity.

    Chris Morgan, Aug 19, 2004
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