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Is my Ram in need of some help?

Discussion in 'AMD Overclocking' started by manne_29, Mar 11, 2006.

  1. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    First thing is that
    My ram is not as fast as other systems with dual ram. My singl
    stick 1024mb verses dual512mb ram in utilities tests are substantual
    slower. Should I buy a additional 512mb of pc3200 400mhz in additio
    to my 1gig of ram would bust my performance. I heard that dual ra
    performace is much better than single ram performance. Would i
    affect my video board perfomance. My 6600gt is under performin
    verses other duplicate systems in the 3dmark test 01',03' and 05'.
    When I benchmarked my ram and cpu, they are subpar in duplicat
    sytems with dual ram dimms. At the bottom you will see my syste
    staticstics. If you know tell me what my problem could be

    3dmark 2001= 1127
    " " " 2003= 580
    " " " 2005= 257

    These benchmarks are lower than other systems that are about even wit
    ours. Please help with the answers! In an benchmark , my ram has bee
    clocked at 166mhz. Is this right.Help!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    manne_29, Mar 11, 2006
    #1
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  2. manne_29

    Paul Guest

    From your previous posting on this topic:

       "Pentuim 4, 2.66mhz, 533fsb, 1mb cache
        Fan cooled: 2 80mm intake, 2 80mm outake, 1 40mm hdd cooler
        Corsair 1gig dimm, pc3200, 400mhz
        ECS 848P-A7 MB
        Nvidia 6600gt oc 550/975, vrs.81.83/ directx9
        160 gb Maxtor DiamondMax, 7500rpm/ 8mb cache
        cheap 450watt PSU :( "

    The 848P chipset is single channel. You will get no dual channel
    advantage by adding more RAM. If you add enough sticks of RAM,
    you might even have to turn down the clock speed. So don't
    go crazy with the RAM. A dual channel 865PE or a 875P based
    motherboard from the same era would have been a better
    motherboard configuration, and in that case, there would be
    a speedup by using 2x512MB memory, with one stick per channel.
    The 848P is single channel, so there is no speedup with
    more memory.

    From the manual of a motherboard similar to yours (P5P800S)

    CPU_CLK CPU_FSB Memory Clock Data Rate
    200 FSB800 200/160*/133 DDR400/DDR320*/DDR266
    133 FSB533 166/133 DDR333/DDR266

    With your FSB533 processor, the 166MHz memory clock is the
    fastest option available. The only way your configuration
    will go faster, is if you overclock it, and that option may
    not be available in the BIOS (look for a CPU clock option).

    Your processor is a Prescott, which in some tests, is not
    as fast as a Northwood. If you are comparing it to Northwood
    benchmarks, it might be a few percent slower.

    Your best options would be:

    1) Lock the AGP clock to 66MHz, if that setting is available.
    If there is no setting in the BIOS to define the AGP clock,
    then you will likely be limited to 75MHz AGP clock, which
    you would get with a 13% overclock of the CPU clock.
    2) Crank up the CPU clock, to raise the clock on the system.
    Your PC3200 RAM will allow a 20% overclock, over what
    you have currently. That means your CPU clock is increased
    from 133MHz to 160MHz, the memory goes from 166MHz to 200MHz,
    and the core goes from 2.66GHz to about 3.2GHz. If you
    cannot lock the AGP, then a lesser overclock will be possible.

    That will improve your performance a bit, but not enough to
    really make a difference.

    If your BIOS has no adjustments available at all, about
    the only option you would have, is a program like this:

    http://www.cpuid.com/clockgen.php

    Check the list "Clock Generators (PLL)" on the left of that
    web page, and see if the part number of the clock generator
    chip listed, is used on your motherboard. A clock generator
    is likely to be a 48 pin or 56 pin chip on the motherboard.

    Sometimes a small Vcore adjustment is needed, to assist
    the overclock. I'm hoping with a small clock rate change,
    you won't need to change the voltage setting. Test with
    memtest86+ (standalone boot floppy/cd) and then with
    Prime95 in Windows, to make sure everything is stable after
    your overclocking attempt.

    When overclocking, it pays to do it in small increments, so
    you can tell whether it is going to become unstable or not.
    Just rushing to the new frequency results in a crash/freeze.
    Try increments of 5Mhz for example, like 133Mhz, 138MHz ...
    158Mhz, 160Mhz. Test each time with memtest86+ boot floppy,
    as booting Windows while your processor is unstable, can
    corrupt the registry and your Windows install.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Mar 11, 2006
    #2
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  3. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    The 848P chipset is single channel. You will get no dual channel
    advantage by adding more RAM. If you add enough sticks of RAM,
    you might even have to turn down the clock speed. So don't
    go crazy with the RAM. A dual channel 865PE or a 875P based
    motherboard from the same era would have been a better
    motherboard configuration, and in that case, there would be
    a speedup by using 2x512MB memory, with one stick per channel.
    The 848P is single channel, so there is no speedup with
    more memory.

    From the manual of a motherboard similar to yours (P5P800S)

    CPU_CLK CPU_FSB Memory Clock Data Rate
    200 FSB800 200/160*/133 DDR400/DDR320*/DDR266
    133 FSB533 166/133 DDR333/DDR266

    With your FSB533 processor, the 166MHz memory clock is the
    fastest option available. The only way your configuration
    will go faster, is if you overclock it, and that option may
    not be available in the BIOS (look for a CPU clock option).

    Your processor is a Prescott, which in some tests, is not
    as fast as a Northwood. If you are comparing it to Northwood
    benchmarks, it might be a few percent slower.

    Your best options would be:

    1) Lock the AGP clock to 66MHz, if that setting is available.
    If there is no setting in the BIOS to define the AGP clock,
    then you will likely be limited to 75MHz AGP clock, which
    you would get with a 13% overclock of the CPU clock.
    2) Crank up the CPU clock, to raise the clock on the system.
    Your PC3200 RAM will allow a 20% overclock, over what
    you have currently. That means your CPU clock is increased
    from 133MHz to 160MHz, the memory goes from 166MHz to 200MHz,
    and the core goes from 2.66GHz to about 3.2GHz. If you
    cannot lock the AGP, then a lesser overclock will be possible.

    That will improve your performance a bit, but not enough to
    really make a difference.




    Well I"LL BE!!!

    I was not aware of the differences in motherboard configurations. So
    my performance issues may be limited to my motherboard. Which mey
    mean I would have to purchase a different motherboard. And to think
    that I just built this one a month ago and it's the first time I
    attempted something like this. I guess I should have done more
    investigating on the motherboard and cpu. I feel terrible now that I
    know I can't do anything about it. Yes my bios does allow for cpu
    frequency adjustment, so I guess I will try that. But if it will not
    make much of a difference I don't know whether it's worth the risk of
    overclocking then? My cpu temp is already 44c idle and 54c under load.
    I don't know if it will accomadate the extra heat? Let me know what
    you think.
     
    manne_29, Mar 11, 2006
    #3
  4. manne_29

    dawg Guest

    One other thing.In order to use Dual Channel both sticks of ram need to be
    the same size(2x256,2x512 etc.). A 1GB and a 512MB stick won't enable dual
    channel.
     
    dawg, Mar 12, 2006
    #4
  5. manne_29

    Paul Guest

    I don't bother with overclocking unless there is a real need.
    It makes the computer hotter, it makes my room hotter, so I
    would really need the performance to do it. (Overclocking
    is a lot more fun, on processors that don't get so hot. Like
    Mobile processors, or Pentium-M.)

    Just to keep things in perspective here, the primary factor
    determining performance, is the processor core clock speed.
    So, increasing the CPU from 2.66 to 3.2GHz will make the
    processor faster. While the clock is 20% faster, the tasks
    will not quite finish 20% sooner. The point is, though, that
    in terms of normal everyday activities, you might not notice
    a significant improvement by doing it. If you were transcoding
    to make a DVD, or other task with a long runtime, then yes,
    the CPU core clock increase will reduce the time for the
    job to finish.

    The memory subsystem also makes a contribution, but the
    contribution is smaller. If you increase the memory bandwidth
    by 30%, you may see some applications, like say Photoshop,
    are 10% faster. Buying a new motherboard just to get
    less than a 10% improvement doesn't make much sense.

    My upgrade advice to you, is move to a new motherboard/CPU/RAM
    etc, when the new system will do double what your current
    system does. Since clock rates are no longer climbing at
    their old rates, you'd have to wait a long time for a single
    core processor to get that fast. There are now dual core
    processors, but if the software you use cannot use both
    cores at the same time, there would be no speed advantage
    to you. I have a lot of old software (haven't bought software
    for a while now), so for me, a dual core is pretty useless.
    If you are a gamer, expect the next generation of games to
    make better use of dual cores. If you are an Intel fan,
    and want to build a gaming box, at the current time, I would
    wait for Conroe later this year, as the processor solution
    to build the box with. If you don't care which company to
    choose, the AMD Athlon64 processors are a better choice
    for gaming boxes, and the ones with DDR available now,
    will be just as good as the next ones to come out, with
    DDR2.

    Have a look at the charts here, and remember that the limits
    of the video card, are partially responsible for the flatness
    of the increase in some of the graphs. And that is why making
    your computer faster will be so expensive - to make games
    go faster, both the processor and the video card have to
    improve - just improving one of them, makes the other one
    the bottleneck.

    http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=238&model2=212&chart=69

    Paul
     
    Paul, Mar 12, 2006
    #5
  6. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    One other thing.In order to use Dual Channel both sticks of ram nee
    to b
    the same size(2x256,2x512 etc.). A 1GB and a 512MB stick won't enabl
    dua
    channe




    I am getting alittle confused now. I thought that I couldn't use dua
    channels since my motherboard doesn't support it. I'm already at m
    max now. I was only trying to absorb some of the virtual memory tha
    was being used so that I could have my system working at or above th
    1024mb ram capacity, since about 200mb was being used by wha
    applications I have in the start-up mode and in active windows. S
    what I understanding by the response is that it will matter whethe
    or not I have dual or single ram sticks in position. If it doesn'
    matter than, I could place any pc3200 ram value in available slot an
    their would be no change in performance. Please explain what I may b
    misunderstanding
     
    manne_29, Mar 12, 2006
    #6
  7. manne_29

    Paul Guest

    This is a picture of your motherboard
    http://www.clicinformatique.com/image_produit/carte mere/ecs/848p-a7.jpg

    Both of these configurations perform the same. The second one
    would give you a total of 1.5GB RAM. Some motherboards might put
    three slots on the memory bus, but I see yours only has two slots.
    Only single channel operation is possible here.

    848P--------+-------+ 848P--------+-------+ Figure 1
    | | | |
    | | | |
    1GB 512MB 1GB

    A dual channel motherboard looks like this. It generally
    has four slots. The following two examples, show how two
    512MB sticks can be plugged in, to make single channel or
    dual channel configurations.

    512MB
    | | Figure 2
    | |
    ---------+-------+ This is a dual channel motherboard
    / with two sticks of RAM in dual
    865PE channel mode. Total memory = 1GB
    \--------+-------+ This gives enhanced memory bandwidth,
    | | for a slight boost in application
    | | performance. This is faster than 848P.
    512MB


    | | Figure 3
    | |
    ---------+-------+ This is a dual channel motherboard
    / with two sticks of RAM in single
    865PE channel mode. Total memory = 1GB
    \--------+-------+ This performs the same as your board.
    | |
    | |
    512MB 512MB

    The memory used in the slots opposite one another must match on
    this chipset, for dual channel to work. If you installed memory
    as follows, this 865PE based motherboard would work in virtual
    single channel mode. Virtual single channel mode has the same
    memory bandwidth as the single channel mode examples drawn above
    in Figure 1 and Figure 3.

    1GB
    | | Figure 4
    | |
    ---------+-------+ This is a dual channel motherboard
    / with two sticks of RAM in "virtual"
    865PE single channel mode. Total memory = 1.5GB
    \--------+-------+ This gives the same speed as 848P.
    | | It is better to match the memory, as
    | | in Figure 2.
    512MB

    And for this generation of chipsets (865/875), the following
    configuration is still a virtual single channel mode. Some more
    modern Intel chipsets, do a better job with this configuration.

    1GB
    | | Figure 5
    | |
    ---------+-------+ This is a dual channel motherboard
    / with three sticks of RAM in "virtual"
    865PE single channel mode. Total memory = 2GB
    \--------+-------+ This gives the same speed as 848P.
    | | It is better to match the memory, as
    | | in Figure 2.
    512MB 512MB

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Mar 12, 2006
    #7
  8. manne_29

    dawg Guest

    Sorry,no you can't.I was just pointing out a fact that was left out.In case
    you were to change motherboards.
     
    dawg, Mar 13, 2006
    #8
  9. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    I' m sorry but my knowledge isn't extensive enough to figure out th
    formula's posted above. You would have show me in the englis
    langauge. That'a a joke!!!!! I guess what I really would like to kno
    is; if I add an addition 521 or 1024mb of ram and boosted my cp
    frequency from the normal 133mhz to 160mhz would it enhance m
    overall performance of game play and web-surfing

    1gi
    _ _ _
    _ _ _

    512mb,1gi
    _ _ _ _ _ etc.............. formulas is very confusing to me. I don'
    understand any of these formula configuration
     
    manne_29, Mar 13, 2006
    #9
  10. manne_29

    Paul Guest

    View this thread on Google. It will be easier to read, as the
    formatting of the information will be preserved. Some other
    news reading options will ruin my pictures.

    http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.c..._frm/thread/130da4eb53ba4914/e28b19cd1336ba99

    To answer your question, for your existing motherboard:

    1) Adding more RAM will not help. The RAM won't help it go faster.
    2) Increasing the CPU clock from 133MHz to 160MHz will make it go faster.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Mar 13, 2006
    #10
  11. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    Head's up

    I was able to increase my CPU FSB from 133 to 148mhz stable, bu
    noticed when benchmarking in three 3Dmarks, that my scores decrease
    considerably so I went back to the original settings. What is up wit
    tha
     
    manne_29, Mar 13, 2006
    #11
  12. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    Alright, I turned my frequency back up 145 from 133mhz. On the cp
    performance benchmark I do see an improvement but on the 3dmarks m
    scores still fall. I will still probably add another stick of ram s
    to compensate for the virtual memory that's eaten up when I hav
    several windows applications open. I don't want to be below 1024mb a
    any one time while surfing or playing enternet games. Do you see
    little bit of what I am saying about the virtual memory. (It eats u
    about 200mb of my ram because of my anti-virus, fraps, nvidi
    drivers, and what ever window applications are open. So I just wan
    to fight that problem with an additional 512mb of ram so that I'm no
    below 1024mb at any one time)
     
    manne_29, Mar 14, 2006
    #12
  13. manne_29

    Paul Guest

    Before we go any further, I should mention a small problem with
    your posts. I don't know what tool you use for posting, but you
    need to "Reply" to a specific person's post, in order for the
    postings to be linked together properly. Also, quoting the
    text from the message you are answering, such as the text above,
    shows what you are responding to as well. Look at the thread
    again in Google, to see how it is threaded currently. It looks
    like posts #3, #6, #9, #11, #12, are all replying to posting #1.
    You can see how my posting #10, is indented, and is responding
    to your posting #9.

    http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.c..._frm/thread/130da4eb53ba4914/e28b19cd1336ba99

    Back to your question. My suggestion at this point, is for you
    to get two utilities.

    The first one is memtest86+ from http://www.memtest.org .
    The memtest86+ program will erase and format a floppy for you,
    and you use the floppy to boot the computer. One of the nice
    things that memtest has in it, is "bandwidth" indicators
    in the upper left hand corner of the screen.

    The second utility you should get, is CPUZ from
    http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php . CPUZ is a Windows utility,
    that gives you key information about the clocks and
    memory timings in your computer.

    OK, with those two tools at your disposal.

    1) Set the computer to 133MHz. Boot the computer with the
    memtest86+ prepared boot floppy. What does the bandwidth
    indicator say about your memory bandwidth ? It should be
    a number, like 900MB/sec or 3000MB/sec or some other number.
    The result will be different at each computer speed.

    2) Press the Escape key. Memtest86+ should exit, and the
    computer will start to reboot. Remove the floppy diskette,
    so the computer will boot from the hard drive. Now, when
    Windows is booted, run CPUZ. What are the clocks and
    memory timing settings ? Write them down.

    This shows a CPUZ memory timing panel. Tcas, Trcd, Trp, and
    Tras are four of the parameters shown (parameters three through
    six). Tcas has the most effect on performance, and a lower
    number is better. The appearance of this timing panel, will
    differ slightly depending on the type of hardware being tested.
    Record the memory clock setting as well, as it is important.

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/sempron-2600/cpuz/cpuz-4.png

    Now, reboot the computer, stopping in the BIOS to set the
    clock to 145MHz. Insert the memtest86+ boot floppy, and
    repeat steps (1) and (2) above.

    I suspect what you will find, is the BIOS has made some
    automatic adjustments to the memory settings. It is possible
    that the memory timings have been adjusted too far down or
    something. I cannot make any promises, but if you post the
    results from your testing with these two programs, it may
    be possible to explain the results.

    Normally, your CPU clock would be 133MHz, and the memory 166Mhz.
    When you attempt to increase the CPU clock to 145MHz, the
    memory clock should become 181Mhz. Perhaps the BIOS has decided
    to switch to the 1:1 CPU:Memory divider, so the CPU clock is
    145MHz and the memory is 145MHz as well. There are many
    possibilities, and you will get the answer by using CPUZ.
    Have a look at the BIOS, and see what options are available
    for the memory clock, when the CPU is set to 145Mhz.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Mar 14, 2006
    #13
  14. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    Paulwrote
    Before we go any further, I should mention a small problem wit
    your posts. I don't know what tool you use for posting, but yo
    need to "Reply" to a specific person's post, in order fo
    th
    postings to be linked together properly. Also, quoting th
    text from the message you are answering, such as the text above
    shows what you are responding to as well. Look at the threa
    again in Google, to see how it is threaded currently. It look
    like posts #3, #6, #9, #11, #12, are all replying to posting #1
    You can see how my posting #10, is indented, and is respondin
    to your posting #9.

    http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.c...e_frm/thread/130da4eb53ba4914/e28b19cd1336ba9

    Back to your question. My suggestion at this point, is for yo
    to get two utilities

    The first one is memtest86+ from http://www.memtest.org
    The memtest86+ program will erase and format a floppy for you
    and you use the floppy to boot the computer. One of the nic
    things that memtest has in it, is "bandwidth" indicators
    in the upper left hand corner of the screen.

    The second utility you should get, is CPUZ from
    http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php . CPUZ is a Windows utility
    that gives you key information about the clocks an
    memory timings in your computer

    OK, with those two tools at your disposal

    1) Set the computer to 133MHz. Boot the computer with th
    memtest86+ prepared boot floppy. What does the bandwidt
    indicator say about your memory bandwidth ? It should b
    a number, like 900MB/sec or 3000MB/sec or some other number
    The result will be different at each computer speed

    2) Press the Escape key. Memtest86+ should exit, and th
    computer will start to reboot. Remove the floppy diskette
    so the computer will boot from the hard drive. Now, whe
    Windows is booted, run CPUZ. What are the clocks an
    memory timing settings ? Write them down

    This shows a CPUZ memory timing panel. Tcas, Trcd, Trp, an
    Tras are four of the parameters shown (parameters three throug
    six). Tcas has the most effect on performance, and a lowe
    number is better. The appearance of this timing panel, wil
    differ slightly depending on the type of hardware being tested
    Record the memory clock setting as well, as it is important

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/sempron-2600/cpuz/cpuz-4.pn

    Now, reboot the computer, stopping in the BIOS to set th
    clock to 145MHz. Insert the memtest86+ boot floppy, an
    repeat steps (1) and (2) above

    that the memory timings have been adjusted too far down o
    something. I cannot make any promises, but if you post th
    results from your testing with these two programs, it ma
    be possible to explain the results

    Normally, your CPU clock would be 133MHz, and the memory 166Mhz
    When you attempt to increase the CPU clock to 145MHz, the
    memory clock should become 181Mhz. Perhaps the BIOS has decide
    to switch to the 1:1 CPU:Memory divider, so the CPU clock i
    145MHz and the memory is 145MHz as well. There are many
    possibilities, and you will get the answer by using CPUZ
    Have a look at the BIOS, and see what options are availabl
    for the memory clock, when the CPU is set to 145Mhz.

    Paul[/quote:ef00588e11
     
    manne_29, Mar 14, 2006
    #14
  15. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    way
     
    manne_29, Mar 14, 2006
    #15
  16. manne_29

    Paul Guest

    ******

    Here are my default Cpu and Ram results: (Default)

    Chipset :  Intel i865P/i848P
    Chipset RAM Type : DDR-SDRAM PC2700 Single
    DIMM Type :        DDR-SDRAM  PC3200
    FSB Frequency :    133 MHz
    Bus Speed :        532.2 MHz (QDR)
    Memory Frequency : 166 MHz
    Chipset Bandwidth :        4256 MB/s
    Memory Bandwidth : 2660 MB/s
    Latency :  CL2.5
    PAT Enabled :      Yes

    Also:
    Bandwidth 1  KB :  34449.6 MB/s
    Bandwidth 2  KB :  29362.49 MB/s
    Bandwidth 4  KB :  31095.55 MB/s
    Bandwidth 8  KB :  35044.99 MB/s
    Bandwidth 16  KB : 32203.85 MB/s
    Bandwidth 32  KB : 16985.61 MB/s
    Bandwidth 64  KB : 19087.19 MB/s
    Bandwidth 128  KB :        19303.26 MB/s
    Bandwidth 256  KB :        18487.95 MB/s
    Bandwidth 512  KB :        18399.95 MB/s
    Bandwidth 1  MB :  16375.4 MB/s
    Bandwidth 2  MB :  2543.72 MB/s
    Bandwidth 4  MB :  2544.67 MB/s
    Bandwidth 8  MB :  2547.75 MB/s
    Bandwidth 16  MB : 2549.58 MB/s
    Bandwidth 32  MB : 2548.66 MB/s
    Bandwidth 64  MB : 2550.17 MB/s
    Bandwidth 128  MB :        2550.27 MB/s
    Bandwidth 256  MB :        2550.45 MB/s
    Bandwidth 512  MB :        2550.26 MB/s
    Bandwidth 1024  MB :       2550.53 MB/s
    Latency :  122.14 ns (325 cycles)

    These numbers on default seem to be higher. Is it suppose to be
    that way?[/QUOTE]

    And what are the results at 145MHz ? What I was hoping
    to see, was the memory bandwidth (2660MB/sec), but at
    145MHz. The value of the memory clock frequency and
    the timing parameters, like Tcas (CL2.5), Trcd, Trp, and
    Tras, help to explain why the memory bandwidth went up or
    down.

    If you find the memory bandwidth is lower, when the
    clock is set to 145MHz, then that would explain your
    benchmark results. If the CPU is faster, but the
    memory is slower, things that are heavily memory
    dependent, will perform slower. Things that don't
    depend on memory as much, will benefit from the
    faster CPU.

    If I download the manual here, on PDF page 39 I see
    "Memory Frequency for (Auto)". Are you sure that
    changing that setting, does not give you some options ?

    http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWeb/Downlo...AL&DetailDesc=848P-A7 (1.0)&MenuID=35&LanID=9

    http://64.124.27.138/ecs/manual/mb/eng/p4/848P-A7.zip

    Paul
     
    Paul, Mar 15, 2006
    #16
  17. manne_29

    manne_29 Guest

    the last page. Take a look.
     
    manne_29, Mar 15, 2006
    #17
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